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  1. #101
    Keyboard Turner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Conspiracy theories aren't allowed in this forum. Ur post is full of it..
    I was stunned how your post is overflowed by an interesting logical sequences and trusted conclusions.
    That's a real european level of discussion, isn't it, mr?

    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    dunno, ask trump. actually, trump learned from the russians, so thats circular.
    Omg Trump's bullshitting still in the trend?
    He seems like the one President which are trying to complete his electoral promises.
    Definitely not like a mr.Vlad which are able only babbling his old mouth.
    Last edited by Youkoso; 2019-04-18 at 08:42 AM.

  2. #102
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    dunno, ask trump. actually, trump learned from the russians, so thats circular.
    Did Trump declare martial law and then cancel the 2020 elections? If not then he isn't a tyrant, he is merely somebody who you disagree with that won the last election.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post
    How do you convince millions of people that a tyrant was good for the country? Even better than the current regime?
    Not really surprising considering the amount of Commies/Socialists rising in the West. I guess stupidity is more easily identified with technology being more prevalent.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Is this the "society was good until [insert evil group] corrupted society" argument? That's literally been the non-explanation behind nearly every societal failure throughout history. Instead of searching for a scapegoat you should search for the social and economic weaknesses that caused the ideology to fail.
    For all USSR faults, it had one of lowest Gini coefficients in the world for industrial countries.

    And that was both a strength and a weakness. Minor differences got amplified in public mind into perception of extreme corruption.

  5. #105
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    For all USSR faults, it had one of lowest Gini coefficients in the world for industrial countries.

    And that was both a strength and a weakness. Minor differences got amplified in public mind into perception of extreme corruption.
    Inequality metrics don't matter. What's important is that society grows and is sustainable. Which liberal democracy is sustainable, unlike communism and fascism.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Нет, Сталин убивал всех не лично, но это не имеет никакого отношения к делу
    And about this, you think that leadership in any society it is absolute, how is that? If you live this days long enough and worked in any modern job and also you are able to argue objectively and critically you can see that in any company big or small doesn't matter and doesn't matter which ideas they trying to reach, there is few people which understand that they need to do their job exactly how their leader told them and they trying to do it, and other people in company always doing their job just like they wanted or try to do it with the maximum possible benefit and convenience to themselves personally. You will never find any company or social structure in our world, which works exactly like its leader planned and wanted to work, as the mechanical clock ticks.

    That is why its unfair to claim Stalin as cruel leader who killed his own people, yes he was leader, but he is not pushing every man in USSR to do something personally. Some people believe that USSR won War, not with Stalin help, if so, then why exactly same people say that it is Stalin killed own people, why they don't says that its USSR people killed and executed each other? Double standards or specially just want to accuse of all the specific person? Don't forget that Stalin was a simple man like we all, he was not superman with superpowers. And USSR was very big social structure with many people (more then 300+ millions) with own thoughts and with own interests in their life. And you really believe that all 300+ millions lived and did all exactly as Stalin says or wanted?

    And exactly same picture about today's Russia, same people says that we all living here just like Putin says or think, that we are brainwashed and can't think for ourselves. Putin is personally going to every apartment, in every house and give instructions to us: "You, the official, take as much as possible bribes from people and do not do anything to improve life of ordinary citizens. Plunder the money for personal needs allocated by the government. We have to overtake the USA on corruption level".
    "You, the judge, condemn the innocent and release, thieves and murderers. Laws and justice should not disturb you."
    "You, the man, go make shit under yourself, everything has to be dirtied around".

    And you really believe that is possible? And as i see higher you think that it is russian people stupid and brainwashed??

    And about corruption, why people think that it's only some country's problem, not a system problem??? If you will look carefully in Google you will find information that just only in USA it is not less cases of corruption than in Russia and officials saw (stealing) the much bigger sums of money for their own needs. What about other capitalism country's, there is no corruption or Putin makes personal instructions there too?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Exactly, Stalin would have been jealous of the levels of propaganda in current Russia. I know that you were talking about the world in general, but the world has a very light version comparably.

    Well, what Putin has managed to do is something all Soviet leaders would be jealous of.

    Back in the 80s the Soviet television/radio/newspapers were all filled with government propaganda, that everyone knew was just lies and misinformation. The situation is now the same, but Putin has actually managed to make people think the propaganda is real now.

  8. #108
    Nothing says "I love my people" like letting 20,000,000 (twenty million) of them die under your regime.
    BfA = Worst product ever made by Blizzard.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Not really surprising considering the amount of Commies/Socialists rising in the West. I guess stupidity is more easily identified with technology being more prevalent.
    Yeah you really shouldn't mix Stalin with social democratic ideas. It's the same strawman leap as claiming someone wanting lower taxes to be like Hitler and soon we're going after the jews again.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    It's to be expected. There's like 48% here thinking the horrible dictatorship of Ceausescu was good, and they're either insane, stupid or misinformed to me that lived part of my life under that regime and seen the revolution that dethroned it.

    In Russia there's even more support for Stalin because that was the peak of the Russian empire. Nobody wants to lose so much power. If you once held that power and influence, when you lose it, you'll be nostalgic, and hope for ways to rebuild and regain what you lost.
    Yugonostalgia runs strong here.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Inequality metrics don't matter. What's important is that society grows and is sustainable. Which liberal democracy is sustainable, unlike communism and fascism.
    USSR was quite sustainable - after all, noone seriously thought it would actually fall when it did. It had socialised education and healthcare, robust production chains, and on referendum wherever it should or should not be kept overwhelming majority voted to keep it.

    There was plenty of space for gradual change rather then "revolutionary" style USSR dissolution.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    USSR was quite sustainable - after all, noone seriously thought it would actually fall when it did. It had socialised education and healthcare, robust production chains, and on referendum wherever it should or should not be kept overwhelming majority voted to keep it.

    There was plenty of space for gradual change rather then "revolutionary" style USSR dissolution.
    lol "it was sustainable except against revolution and dissolution". I'm not sure you understand what sustainable implies.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by boshka View Post
    And about this, you think that leadership in any society it is absolute, how is that? If you live this days long enough and worked in any modern job and also you are able to argue objectively and critically you can see that in any company big or small doesn't matter and doesn't matter which ideas they trying to reach, there is few people which understand that they need to do their job exactly how their leader told them and they trying to do it, and other people in company always doing their job just like they wanted or try to do it with the maximum possible benefit and convenience to themselves personally. You will never find any company or social structure in our world, which works exactly like its leader planned and wanted to work, as the mechanical clock ticks.

    That is why its unfair to claim Stalin as cruel leader who killed his own people, yes he was leader, but he is not pushing every man in USSR to do something personally. [...]
    Stalin created and honed the self-reinforcing system which was killing people continuously. At first, this was about killing direct political opponents or depowering them by killing people loyal to them. Then when the pool of direct political opponents depleted, it grew to be about killing / suppressing potential political opponents. Eventually it came to killing whoever was killing the previous wave of the undesirables (plus a lot of others, of course, but that's what made the system self-reinforcing) -- because being able to kill others gives you power, and with enough time this power grows enough so that you yourself start becoming a threat (as far as Stalin is concerned) -- at which point the system closed onto itself and became an essentially eternal machine of terror. Stalin was there all the time, creating this monstrosity at every step. He was a sick idiot who managed to take an entire country hostage to his sick, idiotic, paranoidal strives for power. You are talking like it wasn't Stalin, that there were a lot of people involved, but it was Stalin, blunt and square - he allowed that to be, and in fact he engineered it and he was commanding the system to turn and bend and morph into the next phase (eg, he was the one deciding when it's time to start killing the next wave of previous killers).

    That his regime managed to turn the country industrial (at what cost and how good was that?) and win the war (at what cost again?) is there, too. Yes, Stalin was at the helm when that happened, and yes, he was directing the big industrialization plans, bla bla bla. Whether this was good or not, we can talk. But everything is overshadowed by the massive terror that he brought.

    I have a lot of words to say about corruption and everything else, but let's take one thing at a time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    USSR was quite sustainable - after all, noone seriously thought it would actually fall when it did. It had socialised education and healthcare, robust production chains, and on referendum wherever it should or should not be kept overwhelming majority voted to keep it.

    There was plenty of space for gradual change rather then "revolutionary" style USSR dissolution.
    It was not sustainable, it had to compete with the West militarily, but the centrally planned economy was very inefficient compared to the market economy of the West, so the USSR was fighting a losing battle and in the end managed to lose it.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by boshka View Post
    -snip-
    Choose one of the two:
    1) Stalin was retarded weak idiot who didn't know about massive political repressions, Gulag, Dekulakization, ineffective kolkhozes, deportations from Baltic and Caucasus Republics and so on
    2) Stalin did all of those things on purpose.

    The first one means he was incompetent and shouldn't have ruled, the second - that he was outright insane and shouldn't have ruled.

    Also nice whataboutism about corruption, you forgot to mention black people lynchings.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Yes, I totally was arguing for this without even saying it! Incredibly insightful of you.

    Also, Stalin murder millions of his people after WW2. The war was over, the threat was done. There was no need to be as sadistically cruel as he was. The fact that you are saying that all of this was acceptable for progress is disgusting.
    Insight into the usual Russians that are still amazingly here: they support the mass murder of people and support the gulags.

    They're either very fucked up individuals or really good Russian trolls.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    lol "it was sustainable except against revolution and dissolution". I'm not sure you understand what sustainable implies.
    Some people believed populists that claimed "market reforms" would magically fix all country's woes (while keeping all existing benefits intact), and that the rest of the country was holding them back. People can get delusional anywhere (as we're seeing with Trump).

    Ukraine was prime example of such thinking - they had all the high-tech industry and highly educated population, surely they are poised to become great once independent! ...They are now literally poorest country in the Europe.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by shuubu View Post
    Yeah you really shouldn't mix Stalin with social democratic ideas. It's the same strawman leap as claiming someone wanting lower taxes to be like Hitler and soon we're going after the jews again.
    I didn't mix them. I was just listing how stupid People follow both of those types these days.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    It was not sustainable, it had to compete with the West militarily, but the centrally planned economy was very inefficient compared to the market economy of the West, so the USSR was fighting a losing battle and in the end managed to lose it.
    It was far more efficient then fractured, crisis-ridden mess that resulted from it's dissolution. Dissolution also produced plenty of military conflicts between new states.

    Gradual transition would work much better, but some people on top were believers in "shock therapy" and rapid transition based on Polish example... example that noone intended to repeat for USSR itself.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    It was far more efficient then fractured, crisis-ridden mess that resulted from it's dissolution. Dissolution also produced plenty of military conflicts between new states.

    Gradual transition would work much better, but some people on top were believers in "shock therapy" and rapid transition based on Polish example... example that noone intended to repeat for USSR itself.
    Maybe, but you said that USSR was sustainable and it wasn't, it was losing to the West and its downfall was inevitable. I guess you wanted to say that USSR was somewhat robust or whatever - weaker than "sustainable".

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    Choose one of the two:
    1) Stalin was retarded weak idiot who didn't know about massive political repressions, Gulag, Dekulakization, ineffective kolkhozes, deportations from Baltic and Caucasus Republics and so on
    2) Stalin did all of those things on purpose.
    The first one means he was incompetent and shouldn't have ruled, the second - that he was outright insane and shouldn't have ruled.
    He didn't have mercy to enemies of his ideology, that's it. Be it for political or self-interested reasons.

    Once "no mercy" was established, people followed that even slightest misstep could result in "highest measure of societal protection" (that is, death). Or labour camp.

    He didn't do "all those things on purpose" - they flowed naturally from basic principles. "You got subversive elements? Agitators against government, people sabotaging production and hiding their harvests from taxation? It is okay to just shoot them or uproot them from society that supports them".

    Some people got overzealous with enforcement; then some people were shot for that kind of sabotage as well.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-04-18 at 10:02 AM.

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