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  1. #41
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Which is dfferent than people who refuse to accept facts. Try to keep up.
    So I an not defending people that are purposely lying in debate... stop being rude.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  2. #42
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I think to most, at this point, it is clear that society at large is polarizing into roughly two tribes. Due to various issues, lack of trust, lack of direction, lack of history, and lack of a future "goal" or path to walk and reach.

    This article is a modern restatement of a few different psychological discoveries...
    You're making an unwarranted "both sides" argument, here.

    One group polarizing themselves does not mean the others are also polarizing. A big-tent party is, pretty much by definition, not a polarized group.

    Also, and this is important, plenty of ideas and viewpoints are objectively wrong, or directly harmful and thus worth opposing. We are, all of us, working off the same shared set of facts. If your argument ignores those facts to make up bullshit, then your argument itself is bullshit, and pointing that out is not in any way unfair or unreasonable. If your position is harmful and abusive, then pointing that out is not an attack upon your position; if you did not realize it was harmful and abusive, then change your stance. And if you did realize that, what are you complaining about? You agree with the analysis presented.
    Last edited by Endus; 2019-04-16 at 06:57 PM.

  3. #43
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're making an unwarranted "both sides" argument, here.

    One group polarizing themselves does not mean the others are also polarizing. A big-tent party is, pretty much by definition, not a polarized group.
    It is "both sides" from my perspective, just on different issues, and how it comes out looks different when acted out.

    I know you do not agree with that, but we will have to agree to disagree.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  4. #44
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It is "both sides" from my perspective, just on different issues, and how it comes out looks different when acted out.

    I know you do not agree with that, but we will have to agree to disagree.
    Which is your way of acknowledging you can't possibly support this claim with any actual evidence, so you're going to ask me to accept your claim without contest, because we can "agree to disagree".

    Well, that's not how this works. You made claims of objective fact. We can't "disagree" about those. That's not how reality works.


    This is like when someone (you) claims that we can't know whether the Earth is flat or not, and someone else (me) says we definitely can, here's all these facts and actual images from space and so on and so forth, and you return with "well, let's agree to disagree".

    That's not informed debate. That's baity, manipulative, dishonest schlock. Facts aren't something you can disagree about.
    Last edited by Endus; 2019-04-16 at 07:01 PM.

  5. #45
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Which is your way of acknowledging you can't possibly support this claim with any actual evidence, so you're going to ask me to accept your claim without contest, because we can "agree to disagree".

    Well, that's not how this works. You made claims of objective fact. We can't "disagree" about those. That's not how reality works.
    If that is how you want to see it, congrats you WON! *pats you on the back*.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's baity, manipulative, dishonest schlock. Facts aren't something you can disagree about.
    You saying this is quite ironic.

  7. #47
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    If that is how you want to see it, congrats you WON! *pats you on the back*.
    This isn't about "winning". This is about seeing if you're willing to actually back up your own bullshit with evidence and reason.

    Instead, what I'm getting is hand-waving and condescension.

  8. #48
    Elemental Lord Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctd12345 View Post
    can't there be a moan about the percieved 'left' megathread so at least its contained to one place?
    Or you can engage in conversation and try and tell us your detailed opinion on this article. You're already replying to the thread so I assume you have something to say?
    "Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat—that's the key" - Geralt of Rivia

  9. #49
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This isn't about "winning". This is about seeing if you're willing to actually back up your own bullshit with evidence and reason.

    Instead, what I'm getting is hand-waving and condescension.
    I don't need to back anything, by this point it should be evident...
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  10. #50
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I don't need to back anything, by this point it should be evident...
    From your own article;

    The polarized mind is the fixation on a single point of view to the utter exclusion of competing points of view

    Ironic. You're so fixated on your own point of view that you, by your own admission, can't see any possible alternatives.

  11. #51
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    From your own article;

    The polarized mind is the fixation on a single point of view to the utter exclusion of competing points of view

    Ironic. You're so fixated on your own point of view that you, by your own admission, can't see any possible alternatives.
    Alternatives to what? That the left is going off the rails after the right?

    I do not need to prove that to you, you should be able to see it all over:

    Why Can't We Hate Men?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.7661c5393c33

    Democrats’ new ‘woke’ standards mean hell for 2020 contenders
    https://nypost.com/2019/02/07/democr...20-contenders/

    How white women use strategic tears to silence women of colour
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...accountability

    The Coddling of the American Mind
    In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...n-mind/399356/

    These are just off the top of my head... If I actually took the time I am sure I can find more... oh, here is one:

    Orcs in The Lord of the Rings ‘show Tolkien was racist’
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...cist-w3t95nqtp

    The issue is, Endus, no amount of articles will change your mind, because you have bought wholesale into the polarized culture.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post
    People used to live in cloistered communities throughout America. Some of these communities were leftist, some leaned right. They never met so there was never a discussion. Berkeley, CA is an example of a American left wing community while Biloxi Mississippi is an example of a right wing community.

    Then the internet happened. For the first time ever, the two communities met. This was one hell of a collision. People freaked out, "how could someone believe differently!"

    Give it a few years, people will get used to each other. It's just a matter of time.
    It has less to do with community collisions than the echo chambers. The vast majority of people online aren't colliding with other viewpoints. They are entrenching their own. A flat-earther used to be alone in his rural town. Now, he can fly across the globe to a convention who all share and perpetuate his wrong ideas.

    In some ways, the internet is not the Wild West it once was. But it's still an untamed monster when int comes to politics.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    The issue is, Endus, no amount of articles will change your mind, because you have bought wholesale into the polarized culture.
    No, he's bought into reality denial. He took issue with me saying muslims are calling non-muslims kafir here, because #notallmuslims. Are the people calling non-muslims kafir not muslims? Then it's the right way to describe them, they are muslims. Why would you not accurately describe who they are? They're not buddhists, hindus or christians but muslims. Yet he paints it as an issue to point to who is doing this.

  14. #54
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Alternatives to what? That the left is going off the rails after the right?
    That perhaps it's just the right wing that's polarizing.

    I do not need to prove that to you, you should be able to see it all over:

    Why Can't We Hate Men?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.7661c5393c33

    Democrats’ new ‘woke’ standards mean hell for 2020 contenders
    https://nypost.com/2019/02/07/democr...20-contenders/

    How white women use strategic tears to silence women of colour
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...accountability

    The Coddling of the American Mind
    In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...n-mind/399356/

    These are just off the top of my head... If I actually took the time I am sure I can find more... oh, here is one:

    Orcs in The Lord of the Rings ‘show Tolkien was racist’
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...cist-w3t95nqtp

    The issue is, Endus, no amount of articles will change your mind, because you have bought wholesale into the polarized culture.
    None of those demonstrate polarization of any sort whatsoever. In fact, they largely demonstrate the opposite, in that they are attempting to make an argument to those who might be open-minded enough to see what the author is saying, and won't summarily dismiss it for being outside of their viewpoint.

    You've got this completely backwards, somehow. You're demonstrating your own polarization, because all you did was link a bunch of viewpoints you find completely unreasonable and not worth considering, because they don't line up with yours.


    Edit: It's also worth pointing out that your source article was speaking of a global issue, and all your argument are based on the USA. Which seems like you're missing the point being made.
    Last edited by Endus; 2019-04-16 at 07:31 PM.

  15. #55
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    No, he's bought into reality denial. He took issue with me saying muslims are calling non-muslims kafir here, because #notallmuslims. Are the people calling non-muslims kafir not muslims? Then it's the right way to describe them, they are muslims. Why would you not accurately describe who they are? They're not buddhists, hindus or christians but muslims. Yet he paints it as an issue to point to who is doing this.
    I figure it is a no true scotsman argument, but in his favor.

    Just like I could say "The Westboro Baptist Church" are not actually Christians also... even though they claim to be, but I bet the people defending the one religion that must not be named, would in that case lump that group with all the other Christians.

    Which from my Point of view is a shame, the religion that must not be named is beautiful in its own right, and it has been hijacked by people who use it for their own purposes... just like a lot of "Christians" do...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That perhaps it's just the right wing that's polarizing.



    None of those demonstrate polarization of any sort whatsoever. In fact, they largely demonstrate the opposite, in that they are attempting to make an argument to those who might be open-minded enough to see what the author is saying, and won't summarily dismiss it for being outside of their viewpoint.

    You've got this completely backwards, somehow. You're demonstrating your own polarization, because all you did was link a bunch of viewpoints you find completely unreasonable and not worth considering, because they don't line up with yours.


    Edit: It's also worth pointing out that your source article was speaking of a global issue, and all your argument are based on the USA. Which seems like you're missing the point being made.
    I do not believe it is just the right... and the research we do have, shows that:



    Both parties are getting more "pure" the right is doing it faster, which I already acknowledged...

    Last edited by Connal; 2019-04-16 at 07:49 PM.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  16. #56
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    No, he's bought into reality denial. He took issue with me saying muslims are calling non-muslims kafir here, because #notallmuslims. Are the people calling non-muslims kafir not muslims? Then it's the right way to describe them, they are muslims. Why would you not accurately describe who they are? They're not buddhists, hindus or christians but muslims. Yet he paints it as an issue to point to who is doing this.
    Is there a reason you're lying?

    The issue I took was over this specific statement you made;

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    It's not just some individual muslims though. There's been calls to make muslims stop calling us non-muslims infidels but they still continue with it. It's a society wide issue, they consider us to be below them. Not equal.


    Emphasis added; you were explicitly clear that you weren't talking about some Muslims, but all of them. And you said this in direct response to me acknowledging that some Muslims can, absolutely, behave badly, but that this doesn't speak to the class as a whole. You were arguing against that. It wasn't ever about whether they were "Muslim" or not; that is a lie.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Is there a reason you're lying?

    The issue I took was over this specific statement you made;



    Emphasis added; you were explicitly clear that you weren't talking about some Muslims, but all of them. And you said this in direct response to me acknowledging that some Muslims can, absolutely, behave badly, but that this doesn't speak to the class as a whole. You were arguing against that. It wasn't ever about whether they were "Muslim" or not; that is a lie.
    It's quite clear you're twisting words here. I denied that it's just some, there are a lot of them who do exactly that. That's not just some. Do you know what some means? I guess you don't, since you think that if you don't think it's just some who do it, it means you think it's everyone. How asinine. It wouldn't even be an issue if it was just some of them who do it.

    This is a clear and cut case of #notallmuslims from your side.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-16 at 07:49 PM.

  18. #58
    I always feel bad for connal. This thread has already devolved into a "no my side is right" from what... the second post?

    People are just preparing for the next stage of arguments the ones punctuated by gunshots and explosions.

  19. #59
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I do not believe it is just the right... and the research we do have, shows that:



    Both parties are getting more "pure" the right is doing faster, which I already acknowledged...

    Looking at this second graph, check the median value for Democrats and Republicans. I don't have the data so I can't be precise, but by eye,

    73-74
    Senate: -0.3D, +0.15R
    HoR: -0.3D, +0.1R
    93-94
    Senate: -0.3D, +0.35R
    HoR: -0.35D, +0.4R

    11-12
    Senate: -0.3D, +0.5R
    HoR: -0.4D, +6.5R

    By your own chosen source, the Democrats have maybe drifted very slightly to the more-liberal side; it's close enough I'd want to see the actual data to confirm my evaluation by eye. There's certainly no major ideological drift or real polarization. The standard of deviation may have lowered somewhat, but the overall spread of viewpoints isn't far off. The Republicans, on the other hand, have drifted significantly further right, and removed themselves from any possible overlap with Democratic views.

    And you're citing this as a "both sides are bad" argument? It doesn't support your case.

    As for the first image, it doesn't provide a useful metric for its scale; I'm not ignoring it, but without a scale, I can't tell if it's meant to be proportional or absolute, and that matters with regards to what we're discussing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    It's quite clear you're twisting words here. I denied that it's just some, there are a lot of them who do exactly that. That's not just some. Do you know what some means?
    It means some fraction of the whole.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/some

    It carries no connotations as to the size of that fraction, as you've incorrectly tried to retroactively argue.

    This is a clear and cut case of #notallmuslims from your side.
    Yes. Because it isn't all Muslims.

    You're literally whining that I'm not prejudiced against Muslims. Jesus Christ.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post
    People used to live in cloistered communities throughout America. Some of these communities were leftist, some leaned right. They never met so there was never a discussion. Berkeley, CA is an example of a American left wing community while Biloxi Mississippi is an example of a right wing community.

    Then the internet happened. For the first time ever, the two communities met. This was one hell of a collision. People freaked out, "how could someone believe differently!"

    Give it a few years, people will get used to each other. It's just a matter of time.
    The two communities first met in 1776. You had less direct connection in the old days but there came a time when someone else's vote had a direct effect on you. Prior to that you had a vague idea that there was a king across the sea that might've had affect on your day to day life.

    I can't think of a time in the US where there were 3 or more distinct political entities that had a reasonable shot at the Presidency. A largely two party system will eventually become polarized. If anything the US has become less polarized in reality if not in stated belief. Its the ACA vs Obamacare argument. Something that can be demonstrated to have a positive effect on your life you might be sympathetic toward it. Many, many Americans say they hate Obamacare but like some of the ACA's provisions without quite realizing they're the same.



    A fine example of how you like reality but vocally state your dislike of it.

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