Necromancer or Dark Ranger?

[Triceron]

Unholy can also stay at range if you want to go there. The vast majority of their abilities are ranged, less so for Frost even if that's a component of their toolkit as well for sure. But you wouldn't catch a mage dead using Frost Strike, Obliteration, Mind Freeze, Frozen Pulse, Empower Rune Weapon, Frostscythe or such, and half of the ranged abilities of a DK are decidedly non-Magey as well such as Frostwyrm, Asphyxiate, Horn of Winter or Breath of Sindragosa. Pretty much everything Unholy has but Scourge Strike, Apocalypse, Dark Command, Death Strike and Festering Strike would be right at home in a Necromancer's spellbook, however. It even has Unholy Frenzy, a WC3 Necro staple.

I dunno, we could go in circles like this forevermore, but I just don't see the design space for a Scourge-inspired Necromancer which is what the main class fantasy is in Warcraft. Not unless Unholy is pretty much rebuilt from the very ground up like Demo was in Legion, and I don't want that to happen.

Honestly there isnt much overlap. I imagine a skeleton summoning spec to be more like druid treants while unholy is very much a pet spec with cooldowns and disease spreading.

I mean its sorta like War3. Necromancers sit in the back of the army and hang near the obsidian statues amd meatwagons, raising skeletons, buffing allies and debuffing enemies. Death Knight fights in melee and uses an ultimate that raises the dead. Thats about the similarities.

Necromancers in WoW are shown doing different things. Heigan spreads plagues through poisonous blight and fungal mushrooms in the area leading to his chambers.

Ive used the examples before, but plague cauldrons and plague shrooms, slimes, spider swarms, lich forms, constructs and golems, and blood-based offense or healing spec can be utilized outside the typical skeleton summoning.

And lets not forget the one defining spell of Blizzards Necromancers - Corpse Explosion. It was an alpha War3 necro spell and was a DK spell, but now rendered a glyph effect.

[Jastall]

Honestly there isnt much overlap. I imagine a skeleton summoning spec to be more like druid treants while unholy is very much a pet spec with cooldowns and disease spreading.

I mean its sorta like War3. Necromancers sit in the back of the army and hang near the obsidian statues amd meatwagons, raising skeletons, buffing allies and debuffing enemies. Death Knight fights in melee and uses an ultimate that raises the dead. Thats about the similarities.

Necromancers in WoW are shown doing different things. Heigan spreads plagues through poisonous blight and fungal mushrooms in the area leading to his chambers.

Ive used the examples before, but plague cauldrons and plague shrooms, slimes, spider swarms, lich forms, constructs and golems, and blood-based offense or healing spec can be utilized outside the typical skeleton summoning.

And lets not forget the one defining spell of Blizzards Necromancers - Corpse Explosion. It was an alpha War3 necro spell and was a DK spell, but now rendered a glyph effect.

Plagues, lich forms, blood-based spells, blights, swarms, flesh golems, all this is in UH's toolkit even if sometimes as PvP spells. It has also Raise Dead and Unholy Frenzy, two WC3 Necro spells, while Doomguards have Cripple if memory serves. And mushrooms are already a Druid thing.

I'm not saying it couldn't work. Blizzard could make a class out of naked gnomes riding pigs into battle with rolling pins as weapons if it suited their fancy. But the design space would always, always be restricted by "but DKs have it already" flavor-wise, and gameplay-wise by "but Warlocks already do that" on top of the general dark caster fantasy being already present also. I'd really much rather they make a class that features virtually unlimited design space on both these fronts, rather than scrounging for the stuff that already existing classes don't use.

Plus I feel that we really need a new Mail class before we need a fourth Cloth one.

[Triceron]

Plagues, lich forms, blood-based spells, blights, swarms, flesh golems, all this is in UH's toolkit even if sometimes as PvP spells. It has also Raise Dead and Unholy Frenzy, two WC3 Necro spells, while Doomguards have Cripple if memory serves. And mushrooms are already a Druid thing.

I'm not saying it couldn't work. Blizzard could make a class out of naked gnomes riding pigs into battle with rolling pins as weapons if it suited their fancy. But the design space would always, always be restricted by "but DKs have it already" flavor-wise, and gameplay-wise by "but Warlocks already do that" on top of the general dark caster fantasy being already present also. I'd really much rather they make a class that features virtually unlimited design space on both these fronts, rather than scrounging for the stuff that already existing classes don't use.

Plus I feel that we really need a new Mail class before we need a fourth Cloth one.

My impression is that it will be a class after the Tinker. Im just adding perspective to any arguments being used against a necro in general. Yes, DK has all of that too, but they use it very differently and for different purposes. Like stated earlier, we dont see Frost DK taking anything away from Frost Mage or see the Frost Mage as something in the way of DKs having their own spec.

And this carries through to Holy Paladins and Holy Priests or Resto Shamans and Mistweavers or Destro Locks and Havoc DH.

These specs are all self contained, and I think zone-control Plague spec would be very different from an Unholy DK. You plop down plague shrooms that grow and explode, you unleash slow moving slimes that blight the area amd slow movement, you throw vials of blight that creates poisonous pools on the ground, and you could summon a giant cauldron that spills blight in a large radius around it and be used to LOS. Couple that with standard skeletal minions and this could be a new style of play that is built on a lot of removed mechanics from the game. Wild Mushroom doesnt exist as an offense spell any more, neither does corpse explosion. Thematically, you are Heigan.

[Jastall]

My impression is that it will be a class after the Tinker. Im just adding perspective to any arguments being used against a necro in general. Yes, DK has all of that too, but they use it very differently and for different purposes. Like stated earlier, we dont see Frost DK taking anything away from Frost Mage or see the Frost Mage as something in the way of DKs having their own spec.

And this carries through to Holy Paladins and Holy Priests or Resto Shamans and Mistweavers or Destro Locks and Havoc DH.

These specs are all self contained, and I think zone-control Plague spec would be very different from an Unholy DK. You plop down plague shrooms that grow and explode, you unleash slow moving slimes that blight the area amd slow movement, you throw vials of blight that creates poisonous pools on the ground, and you could summon a giant cauldron that spills blight in a large radius around it and be used to LOS. Couple that with standard skeletal minions and this could be a new style of play that is built on a lot of removed mechanics from the game. Wild Mushroom doesnt exist as an offense spell any more, neither does corpse explosion. Thematically, you are Heigan.

Sure, as I said it could work, but is Heigan really a strong enough fantasy to carry a class? We saw how basing a class on Chen Stormstout (and admittedly making it start at lvl 1) made for the least popular class in the game's history. He's not even a C-listing character. I don't think that when many players hear "necromancer" they think "fight with cauldrons and mushrooms". But that's just me.

The one thing that makes Necromancer a cut above Dark Rangers is that they would fit perfectly with the seemingly-inevitable Shadowlands expansion while Tinkers would stick out like a sore thumb there. And all three added classes so far had their theme married to their respective expansion.

[Ielenia]

Unholy can also stay at range if you want to go there.

It's not about that. It's about "thematic abilities", which we know frost mages and frost death knights have a lot in common. Both specs are mechanically the same: slowing and freezing enemies, with a lot of AoE.

But you wouldn't catch a mage dead using Frost Strike, Obliteration, Mind Freeze, Frozen Pulse, Empower Rune Weapon, Frostscythe or such, and half of the ranged abilities of a DK are decidedly non-Magey as well such as Frostwyrm, Asphyxiate, Horn of Winter or Breath of Sindragosa.

Why not? 'Frost strike' imbues weapon with cold. Mages can 'imbue' things with cold, too. Ice Barrier?

Breath of Sindragosa? Fire mages have Dragon's Breath, so why couldn't frost mages do something that does the exact thing Breath of Sindragosa does? I mean, isn't that ability technically a more powerful, "channeled" version of the mage's Cone of Cold? Only without the slow?

Mind Freeze? How about Brain Freeze? Yeah, mages have 'Brain Freeze'.

Frozen Pulse? Wouldn't that be a weaker but continuous version of Frost Nova?

The point is: most of what a frost dk can do, a mage technically could. It's frost magic.

Pretty much everything Unholy has but Scourge Strike, Apocalypse, Dark Command, Death Strike and Festering Strike would be right at home in a Necromancer's spellbook, however. It even has Unholy Frenzy, a WC3 Necro staple.

And as we pointed out, "pretty much everything a Frost death knight has but a few spells would be right at home in a frost mage's spellbook."

I dunno, we could go in circles like this forevermore, but I just don't see the design space for a Scourge-inspired Necromancer which is what the main class fantasy is in Warcraft.

That's fair. But what about not Scourge-inspired?

[Triceron]

Sure, as I said it could work, but is Heigan really a strong enough fantasy to carry a class? We saw how basing a class on Chen Stormstout (and admittedly making it start at lvl 1) made for the least popular class in the game's history. He's not even a C-listing character. I don't think that when many players hear "necromancer" they think "fight with cauldrons and mushrooms". But that's just me.

The one thing that makes Necromancer a cut above Dark Rangers is that they would fit perfectly with the seemingly-inevitable Shadowlands expansion while Tinkers would stick out like a sore thumb there. And all three added classes so far had their theme married to their respective expansion.

Plague is a secondary spec. Kel'thuzad is the obvious first, and I imagine it to be a standard Necromancer spec with a potential Lich Form. As a continued theme, it would be a strong zone control spec like he is in Heroes of the Storm. Ground target AoEs, traps and roots, and all the while using skeletons to keep enemies at bay. Skeleton Mages would contribute significant DPS while spells are designed to slow or weaken enemies, and a corpse based minion would be ideal to sacrifice as a homing corpse explosion.

I mean honestly, what character do you think of for Mistweaver spec or Survival Hunter or even Shadow Priest. These specs dont have character analogs, whereas a Necromancer potentially does. I cant say this is everyones idea of a Necromancer, but its an example of a type of gameplay we dont yet have. A high risk reward zone control class could be great for both PVE and PVP.

And Chen wasnt the problem with Monks. The ultimate problem with monks was its execution within the expansion. MoPs strength wa in its end game, and they started this class at 1 with a talent system that was terrible for leveling and no character boosts to bypass it all. Also doesnt help that fistweaving was not as strong as they wanted it to be, and they didnt make the monks OP to get people playing the class like they did for DKs. For whatever reason, they decided to make a relatively balanced new class, which is terrible for promoting something they want being played.

[Jastall]

That's fair. But what about not Scourge-inspired?

Then as I said upthread, I think it's not a strong fantasy. Necromancers in Warcraft were mostly Scourge-based beyond the odd blood magic user, Helarjar or isolated players like Zanzil, none of which have the pull of the classical Scourge necromancer by a long shot.

I guess the best shot is that a Shadowlands-themed expansion would bring the various Death entities to prominence and there would be a spec for the big three. So for example a Scourge-esque one for Bolvar, a sort of corrupted Mistweaver healer or something for Helya, and one for Bwonsamdi which use, I dunno, stuff like the bone spells the Diablo Necro uses. But even then that's all a bit unknown and based on lore that isn't that popular.

[Ielenia]

Then as I said upthread, I think it's not a strong fantasy. Necromancers in Warcraft were mostly Scourge-based beyond the odd blood magic user, Helarjar or isolated players like Zanzil, none of which have the pull of the classical Scourge necromancer by a long shot.

Regardless of that, there is room for a necromancer class in this game, Scourge-based or not. There are so many unexplored necromantic themes, like blood magic, bone magic, poison-based magic, even alchemy!

[Triceron]

Then as I said upthread, I think it's not a strong fantasy. Necromancers in Warcraft were mostly Scourge-based beyond the odd blood magic user, Helarjar or isolated players like Zanzil, none of which have the pull of the classical Scourge necromancer by a long shot.

I guess the best shot is that a Shadowlands-themed expansion would bring the various Death entities to prominence and there would be a spec for the big three. So for example a Scourge-esque one for Bolvar, a sort of corrupted Mistweaver healer or something for Helya, and one for Bwonsamdi which use, I dunno, stuff like the bone spells the Diablo Necro uses. But even then that's all a bit unknown and based on lore that isn't that popular.

I'm holding out for Allied Races style of new classes that carry reskins of existing specs amd possibly adding a secondary new spec and new talents for themselves. Something like this could give us lesser concepts like Bards, Runemasters and Blademasters who don't fit the class pantheon, but have a lot to add in terms of flavour. With overlapping specs, they wouldnt have to balance the gameplay so heavily and focus on the outlier elements like the talents or resource systems.

[Malix Farwin]

We've gotten nothing but physical dps since the game has released, would like a new caster for a change.

[Teriz]

this discussion is DH and warlock all over again "DH will never happen, and could not happen because warlocks already fit that role, blablablabla"

Where did I say that the Necromancer would never happen? I'm saying that the Necromancer concept being pushed around the forums looks like the existing Death Knight class, and in order for a Necromancer class to enter WoW you're going to have remove abilities from the DK class.

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Oh, gods, Teriz. It's astounding how dense you like to act. How about the plague cauldrons in Eastern Plaguelands? Or the ones in Icecrown? And... really? Saying that the necromancers in Scholomance "don't use 'plague cauldron' ability" as an argument is... laughable, at best.

Do you have an example of a Necromancer NPC having a Plague Cauldron ability?

That... doesn't work like you think it does. Finding one alchemist that isn't a necromancer does not mean that necromancers aren't or can't be alchemists.

Putricide is the archtypical Scourge Alchemist. Forsaken also engage in Alchemy. That doesn't make them Necromancers either.

Fine. I guess I was wrong about that. But here's the thing: definitions can change. I mean, the death knight definition for the WC3, which includes Arthas, is that they're "fallen paladins". The new playable necromancers could very well not use diseases.

Why? Because Death Knights already use diseases?

"Fire bolts of incendiary energy". Jokes aside, this question of yours is dumb, because the same thing could be said about paladins and priests. There's nothing a paladin does that a priest can't, for example.

Beyond using holy magic infused into heavy armor and weaponry.

They can, but they're meant to wear plate. Those robes? They're plate.

That's a gameplay convention because the class wears plate. The DK starting gear is definitely robes.

They can, but they're not meant to. Just like a mage is not meant to be in melee range.

So as a UH DK, I open my rotation with Outbreak, and my Ghoul immediate charges forward. I follow up Death Coil, Death and Decay, and Clawing Shadows. I'm still fighting behind my ghoul the entire time.

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Pursue the necromantic arts as opposed to using trained runic magics. Its the same as asking what a monk can do that a Shaman can not. They are different disciplines tapping into the same spirit magic amd elements.

A Monk using Martial Arts differs from a Shaman the way a Death Knight using Runes differs from a Necromancer.

What can a Shaman do that a monk could not? Nothing, if trained well enough. That being said, what can a mage do that a formally trained Warlock could not? In the lore, Warlocks are former mages and shamans.

In the game, our classes spells are based on what they choose to learn and use, not a limit of what they can or can not do. If one were to ask if a Warlock can transform into a demon, the answer would be yes they can, in lore and by example of former mechanics. Warlocks can.

In lore yes. In terms of class mechanics and attempting to keep classes from being homogenized, no. So yeah, in lore and in the game world, we can have a Necromancer and a Death Knight doing the same things.

In terms of the class lineup, having two classes doing the same thing and having pretty much the same abilities is very bad for the game. This is why any time we have two classes doing the same thing, Blizzard purposely renames, revamps, or removes the offending ability or spec. So again, in order for a Necromancer to enter WoW as a class, the DK class would to have to be entirely changed. That would more than likely piss off a lot of DK players.

[Fred Skinner]

The death knight is quite limited in calling undead minions. A necromancer would not be limited.

He could be a tank or a damage dealer. As tank, he would tank with his minions. As damage dealer, he would raise minion after minion based on the situation how many enemies die. His minions had no hp, would deal damage as a damage dealer. As a tank he would focus on a few minions but empower them.

That would be quite different from a Death Knight.

[Teriz]

The death knight is quite limited in calling undead minions. A necromancer would not be limited.

Death Knights can summon Skeletons, Geists, Ghouls, Gargoyles, Frost Wyrms, Abominations, Blood Worms, Shamblers, and Dark Magi. In Legion they could summon Val'kyr.

How is that limited?

[Fred Skinner]

Death Knights can summon Skeletons, Geists, Ghouls, Gargoyles, Frost Wyrms, Abominations, Blood Worms, Shamblers, and Dark Magi. In Legion they could summon Val'kyr.

How is that limited?

It is limited in the amount. They can have one permanent minion as unholy, a few on cooldowns and a temporary army. A necromancer could have a permanent army.

The necromancer would care about raising new minions and buffing and commanding them. The death knight is a melee. The necromancer is a ranged support caster. The damage would be dealt by his minions. His minions would tank.

[Teriz]

It is limited in the amount. They can have one permanent minion as unholy, a few on cooldowns and a temporary army. A necromancer could have a permanent army.

They can have up to two permanent pets on Unholy, and temporarily summon additional pets.

You're never going to see a class run around with a permanent army of pets. It would cause all sorts of problems.

[Fred Skinner]

They can have up to two permanent pets on Unholy, and temporarily summon additional pets.

You're never going to see a class run around with a permanent army of pets. It would cause all sorts of problems.

But exactly that is the fantasy of a necromancer. Being able to control a massive amount of minions.

No matter what is possible technically currently.

[Flintston]

Dark Ranger, as long as it's not elf only. I never played a DH because I find elves sooooo boring.

[Kumorii]

Dark Ranger, as long as it's not elf only. I never played a DH because I find elves sooooo boring.

Hopefully they make it like DK's, technically undead but still every race can be them and mechanically they are the race you chose.

[Teriz]

But exactly that is the fantasy of a necromancer. Being able to control a massive amount of minions.

No matter what is possible technically currently.

Yeah, that's why DKs have army of the dead.

That's the best you're going to get.

[Fred Skinner]

I also think there is a solution possible to the technical problem. Imagine, the minions would be no real Mobs, but client side visible only, and the number and type and their buffs of minions would just be shared with the server, while the clients would create the minion images virtually, with them being either at the enemy, or surrounding the necromancer. The resources would be mainly used on the client, and not on the server. Technically, the minions would be a damage buff to the necromancer. But be visible as a massive army on the client.

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Yeah, that's why DKs have army of the dead.

That's the best you're going to get.

The army of dead is a temporary buff. The necromancer would keep his army permanently. Well, until it dies that is. Lets imagine, a Necromancers weakness would be AOE attacks.