[Spoilers] Lor'Themar lies or big blunder by blizzard? FORSAKEN saved the Blood Elves

[Rozz]

I mean the Forsaken are part of the Horde. I don't think the writers need to spell out the obvious every time they reference the obvious.

The Forsaken helped, but Thrall and the rest of the Horde accepted them in the end. The BEs are indebted to Forsaken aid and the others' indifference/tolerance. So yes in summary, the Horde. It's not a lie to say as such, or ignoring the warmer bonds they had in the past. Lor's consideration for her past efforts has already been mentioned during the heritage armor quest and even by his line, "one whom I once knew well". Talanji says she owes a lot to the Horde, but I don't see you bitching she should be specifically thanking 'Baine'.

This just reminds me of the heritage armor datamining, when half the thread was blatantly lying about events to push an agenda. Smh You guys don't even have real complaints, you just want to be mad.

[derpkitteh]

the forsaken are owed nothing.

saving someone doesn't mean to get to lord over them for the rest of their existence.

[Zandalariprelate]

the forsaken are owed nothing.

saving someone doesn't mean to get to lord over them for the rest of their existence.

This is true but man let's be real and the whole Garrosh thing again is literally the worst trick they could pull. Forsakens leading into some shadowlands expansion would be nice instead of going to war because reasons and Afrasiabi literally laughting at us because she will not be a raid boss but the train hate won't stop and it would go faster and faster from now on.

[MikeBogina]

That is what is hinted in the ending after defeating Azshara, Theron says something like all of them were part of some dark bargain and were played by someone, which is something he should had know from the beginning. I think don't know why Blizzard is pushing a hate boner train in Sylvanas while selling merchadising of her and telling us to feel pride with the faction. Hell I will take the selfie patch over this.

I said it in another thread, but I think it's like a triple girl power "Scorned Bitches" of Azshara, Helya and Sylvanas teaming up. I kinda hope she gets N'zoth in the blade and goes after Bol'var next expansion. Cinematic starts with her fighting him atop the Frozen Throne and takes the Helm of Domination.

then we can unthaw Arthas who has to lead us to stop her @_@

That or we all are forced to tag along with Anduin once the faction war is over and feel like we're supporting characters in an alliance story for the rest of the game's life.

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the forsaken are owed nothing.

saving someone doesn't mean to get to lord over them for the rest of their existence.

How did Sylvanas "Lord over them"?


She's their former military leader who died defending them. One of the first things she does after getting her freedom is to go to them alone and help stop the Darkhan dude. Then she sends them Forsaken aid and fights for them to get a spot in the Horde so that she can ensure their safety...

I haven't even seen blood elven forces in this expansion, where Garrosh at this point was sending them to do dangerous stuff on Pandaria, so I'm confused where she "lords over them" unless I'm missing something.

[Itisamuh]

to be fair, that was when the forsaken actually helped the horde, before the banshee queen decided to go all hypocritical lich.

I have yet to see anything suggesting that she is doing anything bad for the Horde even now. As far as I can tell the rest of the Horde are freaking out over nothing and rebelling because reasons yet I am supposed to accept it as justified. The rebels are the ones destroying the Horde from within.

[Zandalariprelate]

I said it in another thread, but I think it's like a triple girl power "Scorned Bitches" of Azshara, Helya and Sylvanas teaming up. I kinda hope she gets N'zoth in the blade and goes after Bol'var next expansion. Cinematic starts with her fighting him atop the Frozen Throne and takes the Helm of Domination.

then we can unthaw Arthas who has to lead us to stop her @_@

That or we all are forced to tag along with Anduin once the faction war is over and feel like we're supporting characters in an alliance story for the rest of the game's life.

I welcome any chance of Arthas appearing and triggering people but I doubt Helya has a good relationship with Azshara or N'zoth considering her forces were at war with nagas in Northrend and Stormheim is the only zone without nagas doing things compared to the rest of the zones from Legion. Besides I think the lich king has become to small compared of what we have faced and what are we gonna fight in the future, so maybe Arthas ascending to something else by using the player like Xal'atath did to get herself free it's a nice twist and open some doors for the characters.

[MikeBogina]

I welcome any chance of Arthas appearing and triggering people but I doubt Helya has a good relationship with Azshara or N'zoth considering her forces were at war with nagas in Northrend and Stormheim is the only zone without nagas doing things compared to the rest of the zones from Legion. Besides I think the lich king has become to small compared of what we have faced and what are we gonna fight in the future, so maybe Arthas ascending to something else by using the player like Xal'atath did to get herself free it's a nice twist and open some doors for the characters.

That's true, in Vashjir when you play as Nar'jira(Best Naga Girl) you're at war with Helya's forces, but this is Blizzard we're talking about though. They have the legion constantly using void stuff.

I think the relationship between Helya and Azshara(something never addressed but we have proof that they're enemies) could easily be fixed if Azshara betrays N'zoth. But they don't have to actually work together, just work with Sylvanas.

Even if the Lich King feels to small compared to what we may face, we're still small ourselves, we're still mortals with some power. Are biggest enemy being built up right now is Sylvanas who the whole world is starting to hate. Her becoming the Lich Queen, wielding a weapon infused with N'zoth's soul(Xal'atath wont have a sexy voice anymore, it'll be N'zoths) could be one of the strongest enemies we've ever fought(we didn't fight Sargeras). Her having complete control over the Scourge, with Naga and Seaweed Valkyr backing her could make for a strong force. She'll need it if everyone is coming after her.

With Arthas coming back to stop her I think would be some poetic twist from their last encounter, but I think it would be him trying to save her aswell. If he in the end ascends to something higher, I wouldn't be against it, I just hope it would still be death related and not him becoming light bound like Xera tried with Illidan.

Also, last thought. They've been kinda making it clear that YoggSaron and C'thun aren't gone(something I used to argue with Aquamonkey all the time)... what if she goes around and collects all their souls into a single blade? Not sure if the blade could hold them all, but theoretically she could becoming really powerful, like possibly one of the strongest forces in the universe below titan and Void Lord. The Old Gods and void want her dead, maybe this is what they fear.

[Zandalariprelate]

That's true, in Vashjir when you play as Nar'jira(Best Naga Girl) you're at war with Helya's forces, but this is Blizzard we're talking about though. They have the legion constantly using void stuff.

I think the relationship between Helya and Azshara(something never addressed but we have proof that they're enemies) could easily be fixed if Azshara betrays N'zoth. But they don't have to actually work together, just work with Sylvanas.

Even if the Lich King feels to small compared to what we may face, we're still small ourselves, we're still mortals with some power. Are biggest enemy being built up right now is Sylvanas who the whole world is starting to hate. Her becoming the Lich Queen, wielding a weapon infused with N'zoth's soul(Xal'atath wont have a sexy voice anymore, it'll be N'zoths) could be one of the strongest enemies we've ever fought(we didn't fight Sargeras). Her having complete control over the Scourge, with Naga and Seaweed Valkyr backing her could make for a strong force. She'll need it if everyone is coming after her.

With Arthas coming back to stop her I think would be some poetic twist from their last encounter, but I think it would be him trying to save her aswell. If he in the end ascends to something higher, I wouldn't be against it, I just hope it would still be death related and not him becoming light bound like Xera tried with Illidan.

Also, last thought. They've been kinda making it clear that YoggSaron and C'thun aren't gone(something I used to argue with Aquamonkey all the time)... what if she goes around and collects all their souls into a single blade? Not sure if the blade could hold them all, but theoretically she could becoming really powerful, like possibly one of the strongest forces in the universe below titan and Void Lord. The Old Gods and void want her dead, maybe this is what they fear.

Tbh the void wants a lot of people dead, Yogg Saron wanted Arthas dead, N'zoth was about to get rid of Deathwing after the cataclysm, they are always killing potential threats, so wanting Sylvanas dead is nothing new. However Sylvanas wielding that kind of power will need some back up and being smarter than Azshara and Helya because these 2 will backstab the screecher the second they can do that and only for the lulz.

About Arthas I agree death will fit him but more in the sense of Xul or the necromancer from diablo 3(damm they even copy the look), however a friend of mine has a theory about the boss of Bwonsamdi selling the soul of Arthas to another cosmic god in orden to get a champion and that is why Kel'thuzad hasn't come yet from the shadowlands, he is searching the soul of his friend but for his missfortune, he will not find him in that dimension.

[MikeBogina]

Tbh the void wants a lot of people dead, Yogg Saron wanted Arthas dead, N'zoth was about to get rid of Deathwing after the cataclysm, they are always killing potential threats, so wanting Sylvanas dead is nothing new. However Sylvanas wielding that kind of power will need some back up and being smarter than Azshara and Helya because these 2 will backstab the screecher the second they can do that and only for the lulz.

About Arthas I agree death will fit him but more in the sense of Xul or the necromancer from diablo 3(damm they even copy the look), however a friend of mine has a theory about the boss of Bwonsamdi selling the soul of Arthas to another cosmic god in orden to get a champion and that is why Kel'thuzad hasn't come yet from the shadowlands, he is searching the soul of his friend but for his missfortune, he will not find him in that dimension.

They do, but the comic showed that the Void really want her dead. With Arthas, there was the whole "He will learn, no king rules for ever". Yoggsaron knew the future and knew arthas would be defeated. This is why I think the void is worried about Sylvanas, they see what she's going to do(kill everyone) which isn't a good thing for beings who rely on corrupting living things. Maybe with how the plots are going right now, where Azeroth is dying, we're trying to save it and the Old Gods want to corrupt it, maybe Sylvanas' end goal is the unborn titan Azeroth and that worries the Void a lot.

I've always thought that Bwonsamdi only gets souls of the trolls and the ones who died by the trolls hands, or dies within land where he's worshipped. There's lots of dead people all over that we've seen for years and there's never been anything about Bwonsamdi and he's only involved with souls in Darkspear and Zandalari lands. Like what's stopping him from having a warchiefs soul? Someone who is linked to him has to go kill one... like how he ordered Talanji to kill Sylanas :O

And then there's the whole contending with Bolvar who would probably want that soul.

[Zandalariprelate]

I've always thought that Bwonsamdi only gets souls of the trolls and the ones who died by the trolls hands, or dies within land where he's worshipped. There's lots of dead people all over that we've seen for years and there's never been anything about Bwonsamdi and he's only involved with souls in Darkspear and Zandalari lands. Like what's stopping him from having a warchiefs soul? Someone who is linked to him has to go kill one... like how he ordered Talanji to kill Sylanas :O

And then there's the whole contending with Bolvar who would probably want that soul.

Bwonsamdi's boss could be the equivalent of the void lords in the plane of death, maybe not so powerful as the light/void lords but we more freedom to operate in the physical universe of warcraft, also that could explain why Bolvar didn't wanted to reveal much to Vol'jin, he is illegally using death magic and keeping souls from passin to the other side, still the fate of Arthas' soul is still nebulous at best, so any possibility is open.

[gcsmith]

I have yet to see anything suggesting that she is doing anything bad for the Horde even now. As far as I can tell the rest of the Horde are freaking out over nothing and rebelling because reasons yet I am supposed to accept it as justified. The rebels are the ones destroying the Horde from within.

She's actively pursuing war while the planet is dying. That is hurting the Horde, she's even driven anduin beyond peace so... yeah, the war can't end now without a resolution. That is what she did.

[Airlick]

do you also think the forsaken alone, with no back up for the horde, helped and stabilized the blood elf situation?

That's exactly what they did. Belves were accepted into the Horde only after the events of Ghostlands questline. Sylvanas might have been working towards getting the belves into the Horde at the time, but saving them was a completely independent decision by her, and she would probably do that even if she was ordered not to. Even belf NPCs say that the only reason they didn't get wiped out was because of the Forsaken, not the Horde help, and that they are indebted to them, not the Horde.

[Amaterasu65]

His dialogue changed. Doesn't refer to anything regarding Horde saving the BE. He says that they have to save Baine because he embodies the best of the Horde. Dunno which you guys prefer. New one lacks character.

[Super Dickmann]

His dialogue changed. Doesn't refer to anything regarding Horde saving the BE. He says that they have to save Baine because he embodies the best of the Horde. Dunno which you guys prefer. New one lacks character.

The main takeaway is that the loyalist plotline fucks the story over a barrel. Disregard Sylvanas' Baine-like tendency to kill her own dudes to benefit her enemies and think about it for a moment.

Some tauren who's never appeared before tells Bob he had a dream that Baine died. Not only does Bob immediately believe this guy and take his vision literally but he uses his psychic powers to divine Thrall and Saurfang's location and send you to assist him despite having no way to know they were there. You traips through the place, but even if you tip Nathanos off then at the end of this whole thing the trap fails and Baine flees.

In the aftermath Nathanos tells you that Baine was meant to escape. Okay, if that's the case, was the vision a fraud? Was the cowman in on it? And why does the loyalist option give me more motive to be against Sylvanas than the rebel one? If I were going by rebel material alone, which is the intended canonical material, I'd believe Sylvanas wants to kill Baine and be extremely supportive. If I go by loyalist material then she either wants to spare Baine and is willing to kill her own guys to see this done for no reason or she's awkwardly saving face by pretending this is part of her plan after failing for the hundredth time.

[Grazrug]

Bwonsamdi's boss could be the equivalent of the void lords in the plane of death, maybe not so powerful as the light/void lords but we more freedom to operate in the physical universe of warcraft, also that could explain why Bolvar didn't wanted to reveal much to Vol'jin, he is illegally using death magic and keeping souls from passin to the other side, still the fate of Arthas' soul is still nebulous at best, so any possibility is open.

Why would anyone care for Arthas? He is as bad if not worse than Sylvanas.

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I have yet to see anything suggesting that she is doing anything bad for the Horde even now. As far as I can tell the rest of the Horde are freaking out over nothing and rebelling because reasons yet I am supposed to accept it as justified. The rebels are the ones destroying the Horde from within.

The alliance won't let them return to the adult's table if they aren't being nice by doing more internal self cannibalizing.

[Syegfryed]

That's exactly what they did.

Again, this is lreadu proved false, the forsaken needed horde back up to stand up anyway

Belves were accepted into the Horde only after the events of Ghostlands questline. Sylvanas might have been working towards getting the belves into the Horde at the time, but saving them was a completely independent decision by her, and she would probably do that even if she was ordered not to. Even belf NPCs say that the only reason they didn't get wiped out was because of the Forsaken, not the Horde help, and that they are indebted to them, not the Horde.

And again, forsaken are horde, therefore the horde help then, they acting alone or not

After they joined the horde also help then many times over, not just the forsaken

[Super Dickmann]

Again, this is lreadu proved false, the forsaken needed horde back up to stand up anyway



And again, forsaken are horde, therefore the horde help then, they acting alone or not

After they joined the horde also help then many times over, not just the forsaken

There's no situation where the Forsaken have less contribution to the blood elves surviving than the Kalimdor Horde. We know Sylvanas does all the lobbying, that all the Horde troops in the Ghostlands are Forsaken and that the presence of the Forsaken is so decisive that they make for blackmail material. If there were other Horde troops in Quel'thalas securing the place, and there aren't, then her whole blackmail in In the Shadow of the Sun is impossible.

It only works because Sylvanas and the Forsaken are the ones securing the blood elves. This is not just blindingly obvious from what we see in-game, but is also a gameplay element with the blood elves starting at lower rep with the Kalimdor Horde than the Undercity and the entire Ghostlands being a test run by Thrall to see if the blood elves are worthy of joining the Horde, something they do only through the Forsaken and by bribing him with info on the Mag'har.

As a side note, orcish involvement in EK is token to non-existent where the Forsaken are concerned until the Wrathgate and later Garrosh's more thorough attempt to try and bring them into line.

[Ielenia]

I am honestly surprised Blizzard missed this. Or is it Lor'Themar intentionally lying?

It's bad writing, through and through.

Because another "blunder" here in what you've shown is how Lor'themar completely brushes under the rug the fact he was having negotiations with Varian Wrynn for the blood elves to re-join the Alliance back in MoP, before the whole "Divine Bell/Purge of Dalaran" fiasco happened and completely soured all negotiations.

"The bond between us held strong in the end" my ass. Lor'themar was ready to get rid of said 'bond'.

[Super Dickmann]

"The bond between us held strong in the end" my ass. Lor'themar was ready to get rid of said 'bond'.

You're right, which is why this entire thing got cut and now it's about Lor'themar saying that Baine represents all that is good in the Horde. A Horde without Baine (and thus Anduin) is not worth living in for Bob.

Couple this with Sylvanas' Baine-tier antics in killing her own troops in order to facilitate Baine's escape so the rebels can overthrow her and the only leader who hasn't killed their own people to service their enemies by now is Gallywix. He just lets them die if it makes money, which is at least some kind of understandable self-interest. Warchief Gallywix when?

[Syegfryed]

There's no situation where the Forsaken have less contribution to the blood elves surviving than the Kalimdor Horde.

i never said they had less contribution, but without the horde the forsaken would be nothing, and would not help anything

After the blood elves joined the horde did help then in many stances

If there were other Horde troops in Quel'thalas securing the place, and there aren't, then her whole blackmail in In the Shadow of the Sun is impossible.

why? still would be possible in my eyes

It only works because Sylvanas and the Forsaken are the ones securing the blood elves. This is not just blindingly obvious from what we see in-game, but is also a gameplay element with the blood elves starting at lower rep with the Kalimdor Horde than the Undercity and the entire Ghostlands being a test run by Thrall to see if the blood elves are worthy of joining the Horde, something they do only through the Forsaken and by bribing him with info on the Mag'har.

they are the bulky sure, never said otherwise, but they were not the only ones after they joined.

As a side note, orcish involvement in EK is token to non-existent where the Forsaken are concerned until the Wrathgate and later Garrosh's more thorough attempt to try and bring them into line.

we know by Garrosh short story that the horde, especially the orcs were end to help the elves, enough people to barely defend themselves in kalindor.