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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I mean the Forsaken are part of the Horde. I don't think the writers need to spell out the obvious every time they reference the obvious.

    The Forsaken helped, but Thrall and the rest of the Horde accepted them in the end. The BEs are indebted to Forsaken aid and the others' indifference/tolerance. So yes in summary, the Horde. It's not a lie to say as such, or ignoring the warmer bonds they had in the past. Lor's consideration for her past efforts has already been mentioned during the heritage armor quest and even by his line, "one whom I once knew well". Talanji says she owes a lot to the Horde, but I don't see you bitching she should be specifically thanking 'Baine'.

    This just reminds me of the heritage armor datamining, when half the thread was blatantly lying about events to push an agenda. Smh You guys don't even have real complaints, you just want to be mad.
    This post is all over the place. No one is bitching that Talanji should be specifically thanking Baine because Baine isn't even remotely the only one that helped her. Rokhan and Gob Squad helped her in her campaign in Nazmir. Nathanos and his squad saved her from Stormwind. Forsaken guards led by Nathanos helped defend her city during the Blood Troll attack. What did Baine do other than chill above the bank? Tell her how the Horde should seek Alliance's forgiveness while standing next to the corpse of her father that was just killed by the Alliance?

    And your argument about the Forsaken makes as much as saying "my friend saved me, so I guess I'm indebted to his entire nation". The Forsaken weren't even acting in Horde's name at that point. Sylvanas was pursuing her own agenda because she still felt something for her homeland and Thrall was not exactly happy about her pushing the idea of Blood Elves joining the Horde on him.

    And even that aside, Blood Elves being "indebted to the rest of the Horde's indifference/tolerance" makes no sense in the context in which Lor'themar talks about debts anyway. Horde's indifference sure as hell did not save his race. His race was already saved by the Forsaken and their aid before Blood Elves were even accepted into the Horde "in the end".


    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    I went and fact-checked this.

    So it's true, but that's all there was. Quite the off-hand notion. If orcs were sent initially, before Thrall accepted blood elves into the Horde, there would have been some in-game representation. One would be forgiven to think the mentioned orcs were sent later to reinforce the Forsaken/belf defenses, after the blood elves had become official allies. What took place in the starting experience, the first wave, was all Forsaken. Halduron supports this view in The Shadow Of The Sun:

    There's another citation soon after:

    There is another citation that suggests blood elves are receiving other Horde support as well, but it's vague:

    In any case, it's clear what role the Forsaken had in this dynamic. The original point was that Lor'themar should consider Sylvanas and the Forsaken as those who helped in time of need rather than the Horde generally.
    This is pretty much spot on. And an important thing to note here is that Heart of War, i.e. the short story about Garrosh that @Skytotem uses was released at the same time as In the Shadow of the Sun about Lor'themar. So one doesn't retcon the other. And In the Shadow of the Sun, as you already mentioned, explicitly mentions that:
    - Forsaken offered their support when no one else did so the Orcs were sent there much later;
    - the survival of the Blood Elves relied on Forsaken support, even a year after the events of TBC, not any Orcs that were supposedly helping Blood Elves out.

    So even if you take the Orcs in Quel'thalas into consideration, the debt for saving the Blood Elven race is to the Forsaken.

  2. #102
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    -snip-
    Honestly no it's not. Lor being thankful to the Horde implies he's thankful to any help he's gotten at all, he doesn't need to say specific names when said people are part of the faction he's thanking. I used Talanji as an example, because people are freaking out over Lor'Themar doing something all characters do. Thanking the faction as a catch all for the assistance they received from individuals.

    Half this thread is full of people spouting bullshit for the sake of being mad. People complain Lor'Themar is a Sylvanas shill and each time he proves differently, some of those same people suddenly cry he should be her plot slave. This isn't a lie or a blunder. A character is allowed to change or distance himself from people who no longer have his best interest. Which she has proven. multiple times. IDK, something something about this is part of his character development to stop living in her and Kael'Thas' shadow. Him thanking the Horde shows that he's distancing himself from her and considering the overall Horde as something he wants to further integrate into and associate with. After years of him being under her thumb and being accused of not caring about the faction enough (esp after MOP) it's a welcome change that he finally considers the Horde's people something to fight for and thank. Not just the BEs, not just Sylvanas, he's finally thinking on a larger less selfish scale.

    That growth and distance doesn't mean he's suddenly not thankful for what Sylvanas has done. He has stated multiple times he is and this is often used against him by people who hate his character. We don't need him to restate it constantly, especially when it's never been contradicted.

    Why is it a big deal that a character is distancing himself from someone who helped him, when said person starts becoming dangerous/untrustworthy? It's not. That's common sense. People are mad over nothing. Like always in these sorts of threads. Almost every damn thread I see about Lor'Themar is someone making up some insane Fanon interpretation of shit no one ever said or did, because they're mad. Lor'Themar is a Sylvanas shill, Lor'Themar is going to side with Sylvanas and betray the Horde, Lor'Themar is a hypocrite and murderer, Lor'Themar this. Lor'Themar that. You know what's all over the place? This disgusting mentality that people think is normal. I also find it funny that when the content goes live, the makers of these threads silently fuck off when people call them out on their lying bullshit.

    Edit: Also saving his people doesn't only include one event. The salvation of the BEs is due to Sylvanas, the political ties granted by being associated with the Horde, the soldiers sent mentioned earlier, Velen and a masochistic Naaru, the dragons for hiding away and protecting their Sunwell Energies as a girl, and even fucking Illidan. Sylvanas alone isn't the reason why they're still alive or recovered, she was just one major part of a process. Forgive a dude for saying 'Horde' to cover all those times. Maybe he should've said 'Horde, some Alliance peeps, an edgelord, and some dragons' if we're going to cry over specifics.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2019-04-25 at 12:16 PM.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Maybe he should've said 'Horde, some Alliance peeps, an edgelord, and some dragons' if we're going to cry over specifics.
    You missed the Naaru there, that's a "lies or big blunder"
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    If you even bothered to get off the orc can do no wrong fetish and play through the the Blood elf start zones you'll know it was only the Forsaken that were there. No orcs, Tuaren and only trolls you see are Amani as in enemies of the blood elves
    Funny, I saw a crapload of elves. Many times more than Forsaken.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Honestly no it's not. Lor being thankful to the Horde implies he's thankful to any help he's gotten at all, he doesn't need to say specific names when said people are part of the faction he's thanking. I used Talanji as an example, because people are freaking out over Lor'Themar doing something all characters do. Thanking the faction as a catch all for the assistance they received from individuals.
    What? Lor'themar outright says what specifically he's being thankful for there. You could bend over backwards a thousand times and you still wouldn't get "he's thankful for any help at all" out of that. And your comparison to Talanji and Baine still makes no sense as Baine's contribution to her plight pale in comparison to anyone else's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Half this thread is full of people spouting bullshit for the sake of being mad. People complain Lor'Themar is a Sylvanas shill and each time he proves differently, some of those same people suddenly cry he should be her plot slave. This isn't a lie or a blunder. A character is allowed to change or distance himself from people who no longer have his best interest. Which she has proven. multiple times. IDK, something something about this is part of his character development to stop living in her and Kael'Thas' shadow. Him thanking the Horde shows that he's distancing himself from her and considering the overall Horde as something he wants to further integrate into and associate with. After years of him being under her thumb and being accused of not caring about the faction enough (esp after MOP) it's a welcome change that he finally considers the Horde's people something to fight for and thank. Not just the BEs, not just Sylvanas, he's finally thinking on a larger less selfish scale.
    Lor'themar can distance himself from anything all he wants. His willingness to do so doesn't rewrite the story unless you want to tell me Lor'themar is Blizzard's writer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    That growth and distance doesn't mean he's suddenly not thankful for what Sylvanas has done. He has stated multiple times he is and this is often used against him by people who hate his character. We don't need him to restate it constantly, especially when it's never been contradicted.
    Except when he falsifies reality it shows just that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Edit: Also saving his people doesn't only include one event. The salvation of the BEs is due to Sylvanas, the political ties granted by being associated with the Horde, the soldiers sent mentioned earlier, Velen and a masochistic Naaru, the dragons for hiding away and protecting their Sunwell Energies as a girl, and even fucking Illidan. Sylvanas alone isn't the reason why they're still alive or recovered, she was just one major part of a process. Forgive a dude for saying 'Horde' to cover all those times. Maybe he should've said 'Horde, some Alliance peeps, an edgelord, and some dragons' if we're going to cry over specifics.
    Saving his people does however have to include actually saving them. And restoring the Sunwell did not do that. The Blood Elves already learned to cope without it, they found new sources to satiate their addiction. The soldiers sent to Blood Elves mentioned earlier, i.e. those Garrosh was bitching about in his short story, were meaningless. As per Lor'themar's own short story (which was released at the same time as Garrosh', meaning one does not retcon the other), even one year after Dar'khan's fall, the safety of Blood Elves still relied on Forsaken alone. Without it they'd lose the entirety of Ghostlands, Orcs or no Orcs. Thrall's Horde basically ignored the Blood Elves even more than it ignored the Forsaken. Garrosh was treating them like fodder. SWP was saved by the Alliance.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-04-25 at 01:40 PM.

  6. #106
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    - snip-
    I typically find you pretty reasonable, but I just have to disagree entirely. This is not that big of a deal and doesn't retcon or invalidate anything. You may hate how it was written or how it was executed, but I'm not going to argue the semantics of 'saving', dispute your interpretations since they're just opinions, or argue over facts.

    The BEs were a doomed people, until the combined efforts of many lore characters saved their race. Even if Sylvanas protected them from scourge remnants, they still would've inevitably died off due to their addiction and the situation with the sunwell. If that was never addressed by Kael, Illidan, the dragons, a Naaru, Velen, etc, they still would've died. No she isn't their only benefactor and yes being associated to the Horde gave at least political sway to deter careless invasion/assault. IDK why he has to give the total history of the High Elves, when he can just thank most of his current allies for any past aid by saying 'Horde'. If he only thanked Sylvanas, you bet people would complain 'what about the Horde'? There is no winning when people just want to be salty and petty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    You missed the Naaru there, that's a "lies or big blunder"
    Damn. Shame on me
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  7. #107
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Why would anyone care for Arthas? He is as bad if not worse than Sylvanas.
    We were just making funny theories about Arthas or what we would like to see from him. I agree he is way worse than Sylvanas which is why he has to return and teach a lesson in how to be a proper villain and monster. I would love to see him killing Anduin and making him into some wrath spectre.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  8. #108
    Forsaken did help the blood elves get into the horde, there's no debating that.

    However, that doesn't mean the blood elves are supposed to follow the forsaken on their current genocidal campaign.

  9. #109
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    This really clears up why Lor'themar stuck with Sylvanas for so long and why he was willing to defend her. However, everything has a breaking point i suppose.
    "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" ~Einstein
    Wish more people would take that to heart.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    However, that doesn't mean the blood elves are supposed to follow the forsaken on their current genocidal campaign.
    Why not, Void Elves are bigger threat to them than Sylvanas.

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