(SPOILERS!!!) 8.2 PTR summary

[Aucald]

but you're missing the point. First of all if Saurfang had any problem with current leadership of Horde, he should have stayed with horde after battle of undercity. But instead of he decided that getting arrest by alliance was better idea. If Baine and Saurfang had any spine they could have gone against Sylvanas in front of all Horde's leader. At the end Sylvanas is not blackmailing or holding hostages. So we would not suffer by bad lore.

Does Sylvanas strike you as the kind of Warchief that would tolerate recalcitrant generals or racial leaders? Do you think either Saurfang or Baine could challenge Sylvanas and not be on the short list to have a Black Arrow embedded in their heart via the back shortly into their futures? Which would be worse lore - both of these leaders pursuing subversive resistance of some sort or standing up to Sylvanas and her just sort of rolling over when challenged?

[Onvious]

Does Sylvanas strike you as the kind of Warchief that would tolerate recalcitrant generals or racial leaders? Do you think either Saurfang or Baine could challenge Sylvanas and not be on the short list to have a Black Arrow embedded in their heart via the back shortly into their futures? Which would be worse lore - both of these leaders pursuing subversive resistance of some sort or standing up to Sylvanas and her just sort of rolling over when challenged?

For example look at when Baine arrested. All Horde leaders were there. What would Sylvanas do if all leader opposite her during the meeting? Will she try to murder everyone? I dont think so.

[KainneAbsolute]

For example look at when Baine arrested. All Horde leaders were there. What would Sylvanas do if all leader opposite her during the meeting? Will she try to murder everyone? I dont think so.

You said it. Will she try to murder? No. Did she try to murder Baine? No. She arrested him, if she tries to murder him she will lose that tauren and more factions.

I think Sylvanas wanted to used Baine as bait and check the loyalties. She lied to the spies and Shaw once, however the part of the Spiritwalker, i cannot explain it.

[ravenmoon]

The Nightborn were Kaldorei before WoTA, obviously Thalyssra would know about an ancient Kaldorei ritual.

@Hellspawn, they were fully kaldorei up to several thousand years under the shield.

I wouldnt be surprised if they consider themselves a unique caste of kaldorei. They co aiders the,selves the heirs and holders of the kaldorei legacy.

What is disappointing is that we see no shen'dralar or Farondis highborne.

[pewpmeiser]

this all sounds so great, i cant wait to see how it plays out

[Onvious]

And beyond the leaders, many of their troops were there. What would the Horde leaders do if they tried to move against Sylvanas and find that their troops oppose them?

Exactly! This is why i dont support Saurfang and Baine actions at all. They are like C-Tier manga-comics characters who refuse to take action/speak.

[ravenmoon]

I'm sad to see they arent playing a role so far, and rather than Jaina working with them, she is supplanting them totally on the alliance side, similar to Khadgar did in Legion.

How hard is it to write actual night elves who knew Azshara and were greatly affected by her playing a major role against her...? unless this is only the start and alot more of her is coming after her raid...big IF tho.

At least Thalyssra is playing a role which is good, and while I really don't mind Jaina being there, people like Prince Farondis and Mordant Evenshade along with the rest of the Farondis and Shen'dralar highborne should be playing the leading alliance role from the night elves, while the druids and sentinels are still in Darkshore.

I hear Tyrande and Malfurion aren't even there, which makes them look super stupid, for being more concerned with revenge and a zone instead of stopping their ancient adversary responsible for every hardship and weakness the night elves have endured in the last 10,000 years, including their greatest genocide, which makes Teldrassil look like kiddies play. That enemy, who is plotting another otherworldly invasion that could give the void victory over all creation. I mean why arent these people leading the fight against someone they clearly hate and need to stop...same with Prince Farondis,

If this isn't the end of Azshara and they will get involved a lot more later on, then fine, but that is a big if. Again, like Legion, it feels like the Darnassian night elves, who were the main group of night elves, seem to be cut out of what's going on.

What is so hard about having both Farondis and Thalyssra playing similar roles together for their respective allies? What was so hard about having Jaina alongside the older more knowledgeable mage like Mordant Evenshade who'd be far more familiar with the arcane magic worked? Yes we get she is powerful, but she is a child in breadth of knowledge compared to others and doesn't have to be alone.

This is the 2nd major night elf enemy after the Legion, their own former Queen, it doesn't get more night elf than this, it seems a snub to have them play so little a role but instead have more newbies like Lor'themar and Jaina doing everything.

You use night elves for night elf stuff, because you will ignore them for human, orc, draenei and every other races stuff, yet still feel they should play minimal roles in their own lore shit...just wow

[Eggroll]

Cuz Blizz hates nelves. Nelves have been the punching bags for WoW writers for more than 10 years now, nothing good will come from them.

Yeah, and it's still annoying me, too, that no major nelf characters were at the Broken Shore ...

[Martymark]

Shaw: Baine should be just ahead.
Saurfang: It seems we must get past her, first.

The Black Bride: Halt! This area is off limits!
Saurfang: We do not want trouble--
The Black Bride: That's Saurfang! Kill the traitors!

With so few Forsaken characters in Vanilla, I always had a soft spot for her, but sure, force me to kill her as a trash mob.

Also, Saurfang saying he didn't want any trouble while sneaking Alliance military into the Horde capital...
Me, sneaking onto the White House’s lawn with Osama bin Laden
I DON’T WANT ANY TROUBLE!!

[Aucald]

For example look at when Baine arrested. All Horde leaders were there. What would Sylvanas do if all leader opposite her during the meeting? Will she try to murder everyone? I dont think so.

Well, no; except that scene occurs at the end of Baine's subversive campaign when he outed himself as the rebel in question - had Baine approached Sylvanas with his complaints early on, in a private audience in Orgrimmar for example, how do you think it would play out? How do you think it would've played out if Sylvanas had taken Saurfang into custody at the Battle of Lordaeron as opposed to the Alliance? Don't jump to the end of the existing narrative, visualize the alternative.

[Onvious]

I agree on Baine but don't agree on Saurfang at all. Saurfang is a man struggling with the reality of war after having devoted his entire life to it. He gloried in it, it's what makes him alive yet at the same time the atrocities have just piled up so high he cannot take it anymore. You cannot ask for him to just act.

You're right on Saurfang part, I agree that on partly. That guy saw too many things in his life but I'm still thinking that when he released by Anduin, he should have tried to reach all Horde leaders.

[Friendlyimmolation]

With so few Forsaken characters in Vanilla, I always had a soft spot for her, but sure, force me to kill her as a trash mob.

Also, Saurfang saying he didn't want any trouble while sneaking Alliance military into the Horde capital...
Me, sneaking onto the White House’s lawn with Osama bin Laden
I DON’T WANT ANY TROUBLE!!

Saurfang should have screamed about honor a few times, and the Black Bride would have said "Well when you put it that way, you're own twisted idea of what honor does validates all your hypocritical and nonsensical actions, you may pass."

[cparle87]

I'm sad to see they arent playing a role so far, and rather than Jaina working with them, she is supplanting them totally on the alliance side, similar to Khadgar did in Legion.

How hard is it to write actual night elves who knew Azshara and were greatly affected by her playing a major role against her...? unless this is only the start and alot more of her is coming after her raid...big IF tho.

At least Thalyssra is playing a role which is good, and while I really don't mind Jaina being there, people like Prince Farondis and Mordant Evenshade along with the rest of the Farondis and Shen'dralar highborne should be playing the leading alliance role from the night elves, while the druids and sentinels are still in Darkshore.

I hear Tyrande and Malfurion aren't even there, which makes them look super stupid, for being more concerned with revenge and a zone instead of stopping their ancient adversary responsible for every hardship and weakness the night elves have endured in the last 10,000 years, including their greatest genocide, which makes Teldrassil look like kiddies play. That enemy, who is plotting another otherworldly invasion that could give the void victory over all creation. I mean why arent these people leading the fight against someone they clearly hate and need to stop...same with Prince Farondis,

If this isn't the end of Azshara and they will get involved a lot more later on, then fine, but that is a big if. Again, like Legion, it feels like the Darnassian night elves, who were the main group of night elves, seem to be cut out of what's going on.

What is so hard about having both Farondis and Thalyssra playing similar roles together for their respective allies? What was so hard about having Jaina alongside the older more knowledgeable mage like Mordant Evenshade who'd be far more familiar with the arcane magic worked? Yes we get she is powerful, but she is a child in breadth of knowledge compared to others and doesn't have to be alone.

This is the 2nd major night elf enemy after the Legion, their own former Queen, it doesn't get more night elf than this, it seems a snub to have them play so little a role but instead have more newbies like Lor'themar and Jaina doing everything.

You use night elves for night elf stuff, because you will ignore them for human, orc, draenei and every other races stuff, yet still feel they should play minimal roles in their own lore shit...just wow

Um. Two questions. Why would Farondis be there? And do we even have any named Shen'dralar characters to work with?

[KrakHed]

You're right on Saurfang part, I agree that on partly. That guy saw too many things in his life but I'm still thinking that when he released by Anduin, he should have tried to reach all Horde leaders.

And he apparently did go get Thrall, got a stealth totem from Rokhan, made some inroads with Lor'themar, and rescued Baine. Jaina shows up uninvited, and to Saurfang's annoyance. Saurfang has pretty much got in contact with every Horde leader he knows.

[ravenmoon]

I do agree the ending needs to be different (and markedly so), but I don't think that requires that Sylvanas "win." Sylvanas could turn her back on the current course and attempt to atone. She could fall prey to N'Zoth's influence and have to be rescued. She could atone and sacrifice herself for the greater good of the Horde or of Azeroth. She could even somehow justify her actions with some heretofore unknown plan that recontextualizes her actions in a retroactive fashion. Any of those are possible, and all of them would set her apart from Garrosh and the outcome of SoO.

It could turn out that Azshara was manipulating her the whole time and she eventually u-turns and now fights to mend fences, though she loses the Warchief post, but may somehow end up with more power she now actively uses to fight the void as an ally.

The blame of the whole war is principally laid at N'zoth and Azshara's feet, it allows for the alliance in particular the night elves to focus their hatred on Azshara and N'zoth for their 2nd genocide...and while they don't really absolve Sylvanas, the fact that she plays an important role against the shadow, the bigger problem allows her a stay of execution and she makes amends by being a key to foiling N'zoths plans.

However, Saurfang's army of orcs, tauren, goblins, trolls and blood elves, well, Saurfang willingly strategise and orchestrated the war, he was under no influence, however he didnt kill Malfurion and handed himself over to the alliance, expand Anduins decision to spare him could be a rift with the night elves.

[Dagoth Ur]

Jaina shows up uninvited, and to Saurfang's annoyance.

Oh, I've missed this first time around. Maybe there's some solace to be found in all this.

Horde being willing to clean up its own mess without calling our friendly morally spiderman is all I've wanted really!

[Super Dickmann]

And he apparently did go get Thrall, got a stealth totem from Rokhan, made some inroads with Lor'themar, and rescued Baine. Jaina shows up uninvited, and to Saurfang's annoyance. Saurfang has pretty much got in contact with every Horde leader he knows.

While I disagree with your reading, as per usual, I do wonder if we'll get that Saurfang story we've been going on about for a while now, regarding his meeting with Thrall. This strikes me as a pretty big deal to happen in some one-off scenario offered by Bob.

As for Saurfang, him acting offended on behalf of Rastakhan, whom he never met, and the Zandalari, who he had no contact with, before going along with Jaina, is barely even lip service. Especially in a scenario that establishes clearly that the rebels are Alliance patsies.
@Skytotem

No argument on the writers basically writing Sylvanas out of an expansion where she exists entirely as a retarded boogeyman. Regarding Azshara, as said, while its resource value is dubious, it's goblin territory and the night elves have had clashes with the orcs. The Warchief who defeats them as heavily as Sylvanas does would gain in popularity, especially if it comes at no cost to the orcs but a heavy cost to what they'd think she'd prioritize - i.e her own kingdom.

Of course ,this is all contingent on the lines not being changed, though they wouldn't change what we factually see.

[ravenmoon]

Um. Two questions. Why would Farondis be there? And do we even have any named Shen'dralar characters to work with?

Play Legion Azsuna zone, make sure you read the ancient times for one of the quests..and you will be shocked Prince Farondis isnt there.

As for the Shen'dralar - they lead the highborne now, Mordant Evenshade is their leader, other notable mentions are Estulan who featured heavily in the alliance quests in Feralas zone for 4.0

The Shen'dralar were Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists, processing her most important projects, often in secret. They turned against her to fight the Legion in the War of the Ancients, but before Cata, she approaches them for an allegiance, crying for more info they uncover the old gods' Destheing plot and use this urgent situation to mend fences with the Darnassians and ally.

Now I don't know if Chronicles necessarily means the wotlK stuff was retconned, it was Metzen that shared the info about crying and Queen Azshara at the blizzcon Cata reveal, at the time we assumed they were discovering this in Dire Maul, but actually we don't know, they could have been in the forest having overcome their addiction and withdrawal over the last few years since classic period when they fled the city after Prince Totheldrinn was slain by adventurers, like Chronicles states, and pulling themselves together then uncovered the plot after being approached by Azshara...I don't know, since in game doesn't mention it, and only an interview/panel reveals this info, it is easy to retcon

[Trassk]

Good luck going forward with suicidal Saurfang and useless Baine.

Here's the thing sweetheart, the horde will go forward with characters who aren't genocidal monsters, ones who kill there own soldiers, because that's what will be written. Your the one being left in the dirt.

- - - Updated - - -

With so few Forsaken characters in Vanilla, I always had a soft spot for her, but sure, force me to kill her as a trash mob.

Also, Saurfang saying he didn't want any trouble while sneaking Alliance military into the Horde capital...
Me, sneaking onto the White House’s lawn with Osama bin Laden
I DON’T WANT ANY TROUBLE!!

So fact saurfang gave her a chance to back down andnshe just went for him causing him to retaliate doesn't make sense to you?

If it was anduin and he tried to 'talk it out' your be calling him a pussy for not fighting back.

There's no pleasing you lot.

[Super Dickmann]

Here's the thing sweetheart, the horde will go forward with characters who aren't genocidal monsters, ones who kill there own soldiers, because that's what will be written.

Both Saurfang and Baine have killed their own soldiers to benefit the Alliance, Saurfang has also taken part in one more genocide than Sylvanas. so unless they'll mercifully die and improve the Horde immeasurably by their absence, you're shit out of luck if those are your criteria.