[Spoilers] All the horde leaders are terrible

[Candy Cough]

I hear everyone giving Sylvanas sas, but come on they all suck

Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

Saurfang? He is a hypocrite. His Concept of honor is stupid. In a good war, its revealed that SAURFANG was the one who orchestrated the war of thorns. Alright, so hiring hundreads of assassins and poisoning the food supply of the enemy, butchering your way across all of ashenvale using lies and subterfuge and killing civilians unprovoked. Yeah no thats honorable, but helping his warchief from being killed is dishonorable. And what then? He betrays the entire horde. His reasoning is because of Sylvanas and Lordaeron, WHEN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT KILLED ATLEAST AS MANY IN THE WAR OF THORNS

Baine? He fucking delievers the horde to the alliance YET AGAIN on a silver platter. He sent a piece of his own horn to the alliance, he collaborated with them instead of his own allies during the siege of Orgrimmar. Yeah people bring up Taurajo alot but come on it has legitemacy. Why did he even exile his people wanting revenge, are you kidding me? What kind of leader just says "No no, It was a legitimate target, just kill my people". There are dwarves wiping out entire tribes in the barrens, Balistas lined up at the great game, and he does nothing. Had it been Carine he would have marched from mulgore to dusthallow marsh untill every single alliance soldier was wiped out.

Lor'Themar?
"Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin'dorei might have died out against the Scourge." NO. It was the forsaken that helped you. Remember the ghostlands and the tranquillen? You werent let into the horde until AFTER the forsaken has helped you with the remaining scourge
"Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong." NO. You almost defected to the alliance and betrayed the horde.
Serioulsy Lor'themar just shut up

Voljin didnt get a chance to be terrible, but he ordered the unprovoked attack on Ashran, and he apologised to jaina about the purge of dalaran, agreeing that butchering the sunreavers was justified

Seriously they all suck. Gallywix is terrible too, but atleast he KNOWS he is terrible which makes him less back than the others. The horde is doomed and so is the lore

[Minikin]

Yea thrall should have cut down ashenvale and settled right in. Of course the night elves, that he had just allied with, to beat back the Legion would have let him take their lands so simply. It's not like they are fanatical tree huggers at all and would have attacked like they do to trespassers.

[Amaterasu65]

The whole faction is a terrible mess.

[Candy Cough]

Yea thrall should have cut down ashenvale and settled right in. Of course the night elves, that he had just allied with, to beat back the Legion would have let him take their lands so simply. It's not like they are fanatical tree huggers at all and would have attacked like they do to trespassers.

He settled in durotar long before the legion invasion though. Before the "alliance" with the night elves. They were xenophobic morons

[Ohmmega]

I hear everyone giving Sylvanas sas, but come on they all suck

Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

Saurfang? He is a hypocrite. His Concept of honor is stupid. In a good war, its revealed that SAURFANG was the one who orchestrated the war of thorns. Alright, so hiring hundreads of assassins and poisoning the food supply of the enemy, butchering your way across all of ashenvale using lies and subterfuge and killing civilians unprovoked. Yeah no thats honorable, but helping his warchief from being killed is dishonorable. And what then? He betrays the entire horde. His reasoning is because of Sylvanas and Lordaeron, WHEN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT KILLED ATLEAST AS MANY IN THE WAR OF THORNS

Baine? He fucking delievers the horde to the alliance YET AGAIN on a silver platter. He sent a piece of his own horn to the alliance, he collaborated with them instead of his own allies during the siege of Orgrimmar. Yeah people bring up Taurajo alot but come on it has legitemacy. Why did he even exile his people wanting revenge, are you kidding me? What kind of leader just says "No no, It was a legitimate target, just kill my people". There are dwarves wiping out entire tribes in the barrens, Balistas lined up at the great game, and he does nothing. Had it been Carine he would have marched from mulgore to dusthallow marsh untill every single alliance soldier was wiped out.

Lor'Themar?
"Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin'dorei might have died out against the Scourge." NO. It was the forsaken that helped you. Remember the ghostlands and the tranquillen? You werent let into the horde until AFTER the forsaken has helped you with the remaining scourge
"Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong." NO. You almost defected to the alliance and betrayed the horde.
Serioulsy Lor'themar just shut up

Voljin didnt get a chance to be terrible, but he ordered the unprovoked attack on Ashran, and he apologised to jaina about the purge of dalaran, agreeing that butchering the sunreavers was justified

Seriously they all suck. Gallywix is terrible too, but atleast he KNOWS he is terrible which makes him less back than the others. The horde is doomed and so is the lore

Blizzard writers are sh!ts

[Stelio Kontos]

Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

The Orcs were refugees, they had to settle on what land they could that didn't belong to another state, especially one that they had just fought alongside against the Burning Legion and at the time, the Night Elves were more than a match for the Orcs. Just because you're a refugee doesn't give you the right to go in and take over someone else's home.

That attitude is what made them end up in camps in the eastern Kingdoms after their genocidal rampage.

[Minikin]

He settled in durotar long before the legion invasion though. Before the "alliance" with the night elves. They were xenophobic morons

They are pretty xenophobic. But that's not thralls fault. If anything he should have settled in thunderbluff with the tauren but then we wouldnt have a story.

[Khelek]

Here, Here!

This horde is screwed. Blizz has written themselves into a corner and don't have to creativity to get themselves out. They've constantly harped on about how this isn't MoP 2.0 and if the writers honestly believe that, they are more deluded than I imagined.

There is no good option for the horde. It is the main reason Sylvanas has so much support even after all her crazy actions. The alternatives suck.

[Minikin]

If he's at fault for anything it's keeping the name and structure of the horde and naming the city orgrimmar. You cant do that and not carry over all the baggage associated. In the end it's a bunch of hulk like ppl from another planet that rampaged over one half of the land mass.

But as I said. If it was different then we wouldnt have the story.

[Super Dickmann]

@Stelio Kontos

There's no international law in place in Azeroth and even then, Thrall still nabbed the lands of established races, it's just races that the narrative doesn't care about like the quillboar and harpies. Besides, we know from Thrall himself that he deliberately put them in the desert out of green guilt.

Excellent topic, OP.

[Keyur]

So much hate - take a break and release all heat.

[Stelio Kontos]

@Stelio Kontos

There's no international law in place in Azeroth and even then, Thrall still nabbed the lands of established races, it's just races that the narrative doesn't care about like the quillboar and harpies. Besides, we know from Thrall himself that he deliberately put them in the desert out of green guilt.

Excellent topic, OP.

Well yeah, better to take land from people too underdeveloped and primitive to hurt you back too much, especially considering the Orcs had jack shit to fuel a war machine needed to take land from a, at the time, much more developed society. I mean, honestly, if we were using real world as a template, the Orcs would have been exterminated after their genocidal invasions. But fantasy humans gonna do fantasy human things.

[Hellspawn]

The Orcs were refugees, they had to settle on what land they could that didn't belong to another state, especially one that they had just fought alongside against the Burning Legion and at the time, the Night Elves were more than a match for the Orcs. Just because you're a refugee doesn't give you the right to go in and take over someone else's home.

That attitude is what made them end up in camps in the eastern Kingdoms after their genocidal rampage.

Also that would made the founding of Ogrimmar an even bigger farce. Maybe they should have sattled in Mulgore, plenty of green land there. If Orcs take Ashenvale it will not be long before its a dessert aswell.

[Stelio Kontos]

Also that would made the founding of Ogrimmar an even bigger farce. Maybe they should have sattled in Mulgore, plenty of green land there. If Orcs take Ashenvale it will not be long before its a dessert aswell.

Yeah, they should have settled in Mulgore, but then they wouldn't be able to use resources as an excuse to do what orcs do best; mass murder of civilian populations

[seleri]

Nah, they're fine.

2/10, you almost had some decent points but then you got to Lor'themar and showed your hand.

[Super Dickmann]

Well yeah, better to take land from people too underdeveloped and primitive to hurt you back too much, especially considering the Orcs had jack shit to fuel a war machine needed to take land from a, at the time, much more developed society. I mean, honestly, if we were using real world as a template, the Orcs would have been exterminated after their genocidal invasions. But fantasy humans gonna do fantasy human things.

I think Daelin is a right as the next guy, don't get me wrong, just saying that it's not any recognition of foreign states keeping the orcs there but their leader wishing to make the rest of his people go through racial penance and to a lesser extent what you mention. I mean, if we're applying the initial logic of the situation nothing would've stopped the night elves from steamrolling the orcs much earlier, but they were nerfed to the ground to make them join the Alliance in Vanilla.

Also, OP, while I understand you're writing in a Sylvanas context, Chieftain "Kill my warchief because the orcs already sorted my problems" Vol'jin, has little going for him except being a more servicable compromise than whatever we'll get after this ride on the MoP train.

[NPI]

The Orcs were refugees, they had to settle on what land they could that didn't belong to another state, especially one that they had just fought alongside against the Burning Legion and at the time, the Night Elves were more than a match for the Orcs. Just because you're a refugee doesn't give you the right to go in and take over someone else's home.

That attitude is what made them end up in camps in the eastern Kingdoms after their genocidal rampage.

Actually, they were not refugees, but extraterrestrial (extraazerothial?) invaders They should move back to Outland, where they belong.

[Stelio Kontos]

Actually, they were not refugees, but extraterrestrial (extraazerothial?) invaders They should move back to Outland, where they belong.

True, but they shit the bed and ruined their own planet, so they needed new lands to despoil.

[Minikin]

Yeah, they should have settled in Mulgore, but then they wouldn't be able to use resources as an excuse to do what orcs do best; mass murder of civilian populations

Orc honorable! Orc take! You no give? Orc kill you with honor and take!

Or

What joy is in this curse? lEts gIvE it To everYoNE!!

[Langusta]

It's Blizzard way how to tortue us for choosing the wrong faction.
But no worries- soon we all will be united under loving wings of our Golden boy