[Spoilers] All the horde leaders are terrible

[The Stormbringer]

I'm curious, is there such a thing as a civilain in orc society? They used to have pretty spartan tradition, where orcs kill talbuks to prove themselves. This still holds true in the current orc society, albeit with different animals. They carry a mantra of "Strength and Honor" aswell, which should indicate that orcs are still warriors, no matter what else they do.

The closest thing to a civilian for Orcs would be the elderly, children, or peons. Those that are sickly and weak is kind of comparable too.

I still say Varian, back at the end of Siege, should've proclaimed himself Warchief of the Horde as Lo'gosh (he was a Horde gladiator, therefore Horde citizen). Then he could've reunited the factions, forced reparations from both sides, and possibly had us in a better position when the Legion came and not gotten himself killed.

RIP Varian.

[Dagoth Ur]

This is what's truly heart breaking. Even before BfA you had to dig through the scraps which is the Horde's cast to barely find someone who you could openly root for, no string attached.

Now it's basically choosing the lesser evil, which for an expansion which was supposed to promote faction pride, is pretty telling how things are.

[Arrashi]

The closest thing to a civilian for Orcs would be the elderly, children, or peons. Those that are sickly and weak is kind of comparable too.

I still say Varian, back at the end of Siege, should've proclaimed himself Warchief of the Horde as Lo'gosh (he was a Horde gladiator, therefore Horde citizen). Then he could've reunited the factions, forced reparations from both sides, and possibly had us in a better position when the Legion came and not gotten himself killed.

RIP Varian.

Clearly he lacked his son potential in that regard.

[Shampro]

The whole Faction is a laughable mess. Best thing that happened to Cairne was die before he could be destroyed like basically everyone else.

[Al Gorefiend]

Vol’Jin was a good faction leader at least, he really shined in MoP after his ass got handed to him by an assassin. Really the whole Garrosh/Vol’jin arc was pretty good, it had me constantly hitting refresh on MMO-C for that cinematic.

[tromage2]

Vol’Jin was a good faction leader at least, he really shined in MoP after his ass got handed to him by an assassin. Really the whole Garrosh/Vol’jin arc was pretty good, it had me constantly hitting refresh on MMO-C for that cinematic.

Not sure if you can consider him as a good leader when he refused Garrosh as warchief from the start.
Openly threaten him that a black arrow will hit him when he will not see it coming.
Vol’jin had to know that a warchief that is an Orc cant let that fly because his troops would see him as weak:

[Tornwar]

I hear everyone giving Sylvanas sas, but come on they all suck

Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

Saurfang? He is a hypocrite. His Concept of honor is stupid. In a good war, its revealed that SAURFANG was the one who orchestrated the war of thorns. Alright, so hiring hundreads of assassins and poisoning the food supply of the enemy, butchering your way across all of ashenvale using lies and subterfuge and killing civilians unprovoked. Yeah no thats honorable, but helping his warchief from being killed is dishonorable. And what then? He betrays the entire horde. His reasoning is because of Sylvanas and Lordaeron, WHEN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT KILLED ATLEAST AS MANY IN THE WAR OF THORNS

Baine? He fucking delievers the horde to the alliance YET AGAIN on a silver platter. He sent a piece of his own horn to the alliance, he collaborated with them instead of his own allies during the siege of Orgrimmar. Yeah people bring up Taurajo alot but come on it has legitemacy. Why did he even exile his people wanting revenge, are you kidding me? What kind of leader just says "No no, It was a legitimate target, just kill my people". There are dwarves wiping out entire tribes in the barrens, Balistas lined up at the great game, and he does nothing. Had it been Carine he would have marched from mulgore to dusthallow marsh untill every single alliance soldier was wiped out.

Lor'Themar?
"Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin'dorei might have died out against the Scourge." NO. It was the forsaken that helped you. Remember the ghostlands and the tranquillen? You werent let into the horde until AFTER the forsaken has helped you with the remaining scourge
"Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong." NO. You almost defected to the alliance and betrayed the horde.
Serioulsy Lor'themar just shut up

Voljin didnt get a chance to be terrible, but he ordered the unprovoked attack on Ashran, and he apologised to jaina about the purge of dalaran, agreeing that butchering the sunreavers was justified

Seriously they all suck. Gallywix is terrible too, but atleast he KNOWS he is terrible which makes him less back than the others. The horde is doomed and so is the lore

Its just proof that we all have flaws, some are stupid and people will hate others for them, but its something thats natural.

[Captain Proton]

The closest thing to a civilian for Orcs would be the elderly, children, or peons. Those that are sickly and weak is kind of comparable too.

I still say Varian, back at the end of Siege, should've proclaimed himself Warchief of the Horde as Lo'gosh (he was a Horde gladiator, therefore Horde citizen). Then he could've reunited the factions, forced reparations from both sides, and possibly had us in a better position when the Legion came and not gotten himself killed.

RIP Varian.

He was a Horde slave. I don't think slaves are citizens. He was much more interesting than his son though.

RIP Varian.

[Beerbill Society]

Lol Thrall and Ashenvale is just comical, go play War3 please.

Grom and his troops almost die from venturing into Ashenvale from the Night Elf guerrilla, he had to go full demon roids to beat Cenarius and he always comes back, the NE weren't even trying they were much more concerned with the legion but honestly do you think the early horde had any chance at all? If you do you completely misunderstood the game.

The lore is a joke, Alliance always had the power to vanquish the horde from Azeroth but never did, wanna see pathetic leadership just look across the street.

[Zandalariprelate]

I bet they're making the Horde lore so bad that this will even out the player count between factions by having some players switch from Horde to Alliance lmao.

Yeah with less people playing and paying the game

[ophion1990]

Nah not in the sense of azeroth civilians, i dont think they have it that way. Id say their old would be civilians, id want to say cripples too but it looks like (based on gul'dans cinematic) they arent part of a clan thus wouldnt really count towards an offense or defense force. but thats part of the story basically. As in a human would look at orcish rites of passage as barbaric, while an orc would look at a human farming or working as weakness. In the end though, humans didnt blow up azeroth and end up on draenor, its the other way around.

Yeah, I just brought it up because it might explain why an orc would slay a human civilian, while still boasting about honor. Since in their eyes, that person should have fought, just like someone in their society does. Humans and orcs haven't really co-existed and even forsaken or blood elves don't really live alongside orcs. Well, not until UC got blown up. Meanwhile their oldest allies, ogres and trolls, are very savage and cutthroat aswell, with ogres obviously being very similar. Just like tauren also prove themselves as brave hunters, above all else. So it wasn't until goblins settled in Orgrimmar that they would even know about the concept of a civilian, I guess. Which I believe would only be about 4 years canonically.

[Demetrion]

I'm just curious how will Talanji react to Saurfang, Lor'Themar and Thrall working with Jaina.

[Techno-Druid]

I think Daelin is a right as the next guy, don't get me wrong, just saying that it's not any recognition of foreign states keeping the orcs there but their leader wishing to make the rest of his people go through racial penance and to a lesser extent what you mention. I mean, if we're applying the initial logic of the situation nothing would've stopped the night elves from steamrolling the orcs much earlier, but they were nerfed to the ground to make them join the Alliance in Vanilla.

Also, OP, while I understand you're writing in a Sylvanas context, Chieftain "Kill my warchief because the orcs already sorted my problems" Vol'jin, has little going for him except being a more servicable compromise than whatever we'll get after this ride on the MoP train.

If I remember correctly, Thrall primarily wanted to settle Durotar because it was rugged and vaguely reminded him of the stories he heard of Draenor. Obviously we know now that Draenor was a lot different than Durotar outside of maybe parts of Gorgrond, but I can definitely recall Thrall verbally jizzing over the savage majesty of Kalimdor in WC3 with Cairne though and then again with Rexxar in the TFT campaign.

[Super Dickmann]

If I remember correctly, Thrall primarily wanted to settle Durotar because it was rugged and vaguely reminded him of the stories he heard of Draenor. Obviously we know now that Draenor was a lot different than Durotar outside of maybe parts of Gorgrond, but I can definitely recall Thrall verbally jizzing over the savage majesty of Kalimdor in WC3 with Cairne though and then again with Rexxar in the TFT campaign.

Yeah, that was his OG reasoning for it, but it got changed even as early as Vanilla when Durotar lacked resource and needed to raid Ashenvale, hence WSG. It's confirmed in Shattering that he was actually considering the inhospitable conditions to be a form of racial penance for the orcs for their previous actions and the choice of a land that was shit was deliberate.

[Toho]

He settled in durotar long before the legion invasion though. Before the "alliance" with the night elves. They were xenophobic morons

Maybe you should look up what xenophobia means before you call the NE xenophobic.

[matrix123mko]

They should support Sylvanas and dissaprove Baine for his betrayal. I can't understand how can they let Jaina live.

[ls-]

I'm just curious how will Talanji react to Saurfang, Lor'Themar and Thrall working with Jaina.

She'll prob be hit w/ the amnesia bat, and will gladly cooperate w/ Jaina and her people.

[Hellspawn]

She'll prob be hit w/ the amnesia bat, and will gladly cooperate w/ Jaina and her people.

"Ma FASA has doomed our people, if de Alliance would not have killed him I would not know about Bwonsamdis deal to this date. So it was a good thing after all."

[Artelia]

None of that is incorrect, though. The Forsaken are part of the Horde. And while they were the ones to help them initially, let's not pretend that the support from the entire Horde didn't contribute greatly to the Sin'dorei growing strong again after they lost so many to the Scourge. They would have still been incredibly weak and vulnerable if their only allies were the Forsaken.

His second point is perfectly valid. The only reason he wanted to defect to the Alliance was because of the way Garrosh lead the Horde. Garrosh' actions lead to the Horde splitting in two. He evicted everyone that was not an Orc or a Goblin from Orgrimmar, and the majority of those chose to call themselves "the True Horde". Lor'themar wanting to defect was no different from Vol'jin wanting to rebel. It was about having reached their wit's end with Garrosh and taking action. Lor'themar tried to go with the passive way. When the plan failed and he heard of Vol'jin's rebellion, he realized the Sin'dorei do belong and Garrosh's will wasn't the will of the Horde itself.

Out of all the leaders right now, Lor'themar is the only one who has approached every conflict in the most level-headed way. He never 100% blindly goes in one direction, he takes his time to assess a situation and considers when the best time to act is. Lumping him with the others is a bit silly.

Nope.

Forsaken was part of Horde..that's true. But this help was from Sylvanas only. Because elves was her people she wanted them to join Horde. But not until they solve their own problems. Thrall was like...."i don't care about Blood Elves" until BE pc come with letter from Sylvanas.

Whole "let's betray Sylvanas because Horde saved us" is sad and complete nonsense


OP got points. Not exactly true everything but with Lothermar yes. They totally destroyed him this patch.

[ohwell]

Well yeah, better to take land from people too underdeveloped and primitive to hurt you back too much, especially considering the Orcs had jack shit to fuel a war machine needed to take land from a, at the time, much more developed society. I mean, honestly, if we were using real world as a template, the Orcs would have been exterminated after their genocidal invasions. But fantasy humans gonna do fantasy human things.

So wait Germans got exterminated after WWII? Oh wait they're alive so real life humans gonna do fantasy human things right?