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  1. #41
    I think you're right OP. The leaders we got are a bunch of spineless wetslobs. I only like Gallywix of the Horde side. Bring back Garrosh. I also acknowledge Daelin was an honorable and justified man.

    Every damn leader on WoW acts like a god damn captain America from the avengers. I am getting fucking done with it. There is no leader with flaws. Besides Gallywix and Garrosh. These writers are too much of a pussy to actually write a good, flawed character because they havevto push some sort of agenda.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Right!? Lol you take a run through brennadam and this green idiot chases you yelling "your death will bring me honor!!!!!" Right next to an impaled civilian.
    I'm curious, is there such a thing as a civilain in orc society? They used to have pretty spartan tradition, where orcs kill talbuks to prove themselves. This still holds true in the current orc society, albeit with different animals. They carry a mantra of "Strength and Honor" aswell, which should indicate that orcs are still warriors, no matter what else they do.

  3. #43
    The Alliance leaders aren't exactly better either. I still wonder what the heck Velen is even doing these days and if he has any gripe with the Horde, despite working with them on Argus. Honestly its getting hard to even think of who is a good character these days. I used to like every character in WC3, even freaking Garithos who at least had some funny lines..

  4. #44
    Having leaders that all work for different causes being unable to put aside their differences for a goal that they can agree on is what makes the Horde more interestung than the Alliance. And much more lively.

    You cannot have both. Try and apply the arguments used in the OP to - i don't know - Game of Thrones. It works. Every single character in that show is terrible because at some point he does something irrational and works against his or his peoples best interests. Hint: That's what creates story archs. If every leader of your faction immediately goes into "I agree with leader!"-mode when something happens you land in Alliance territory...a faction so boring that Blizzard itself obviously cannot be bothered to write stories for it.

    The OP did not include Sylvanas, but here you go:
    Sylvanas is the dumbest chick of all. She FORCED a human into her elite ranks against the wishes of EVERYBODY just because she had the hots for him. She put her emotions above her responsibility to her people and her own career.
    She was supposed to be a good strategist and military leader, yet she COMPLETLY underestimated the Scourge when it arrived at her gates. Leading her people from defeat to defeat to defeat. "You will never break the NEXT Elf-Gate, Arthas!". What a shitshow.
    After she was turned she helped killing her own people. Just like Arthas turned on his people after Frostmourne stole his soul. Sylvanas is supposed to understand Undeath and her character development since WC3 tells us - the players - that at some point even Undead are personally responsible for what they do and don't. Yet she went into total vendetta mode against Arthas, never realising that she is exactly the same. What a fucking hypocrite. If she had been offered Frostmourne to "save" her city when the Scourge attacked, would she have turned it down? Hell no!
    As the leader of the "new" Forsaken in WC3 she totally fucked up. What exactly did she lead "her people" (which are not her people and never have been) to? Vengeance against the Scourge (and the living) at all costs? Nope, she helped hunt those down that did (Wrathgate) while she herself had NO FUCKING CLUE what to do instead. Or, if you read between the lines, she willingly allowed Wrathgate to happen but THEN decided to kill all who were involved after it did not work. What a great leader! She did not even take part in the final fight against Arthas! Which power on Azeroth was big enough to stop her from being there? Her lazy ass? So she failed in leading the Forsaken to vengeance...what did she lead them to instead? Hope for another future? Read efore the Storm. She will kill anybody who has any vision for the future of the Forsaken which is not "Sylvanas's personal tool".
    Whenever anybody in the Horde is called a "traitor" i can only laugh at it. Sylvanas is the ONLY Horde Leader who ever openly betrayed the Horde. But somehow, most Horde posters on these forums are fine with it, becuase while she did openly betray the Horde, she did not do so to save lives or something stupid like that. She did it to turn an entire zone into an undead hell-hole that pretty much nobody can use anymore. So that's totally fine! FOR THE HORDE! Speaking about Thrall letting his people settle in a desert....
    I could go on and on how she never fought the Legion during an entire expansion and instead HELPED the Legion by attacking Stormheim and such details...but i will stop it there.

    Let's instead finish on a different note:
    What exactly does "Being Horde" mean to you? I can only speak for myself...but NEVER would i come up with these words:
    - Female
    - High Elf
    - Undead
    - Human Lover

    On a scale from 1 - 10 of how "hordy" a character can be, Sylvanas is the only character in the entire current cast that scores a 0. She is as little Horde as you can possibly be. Yet players turn on characters who represent what the Horde "is supposed to stand for" a lot better.
    And why is that? because she wants to kill the Alliance (and the Horde, too). That's the problem it comes down to: For a lot of players "being Horde" simply means "killing Alliance". They do not see any identity for the Horde out of being the enemy to the Alliance. What is the Horde about on its own? Well who cares, right? Who cares what my own character or his race is about! being the enemy of somebody else (who i also don't understand!) is good enough!

    No, it's not. Without an identity of its own, independant from the Alliance, the Horde is not a faction. It's just a word. Because - spoiler alert! - every NPC/PvE adversary faction is also "anti Alliance" (and anti Horde). If all you define yourself with is being "anti Alliance" you will never find any difference between you and the NPC/PvE adversaries. Which is EXACTLY the situation the Horde is currently in.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I always assumed that they are just . . .elves? So they have a super efficient metabolism so they need to eat little and they are not particularly populous and spread over a large area. So when it comes to food they are mostly hunter-gatherers.
    And survival is not really convenience is it? A clan calling on the spirits for rain because it is starving does not seem like convenience. Why worship the spirits if they don't give anything in return?
    Blizzard have given us no lore on elven biology so I assume they're mostly just like people. We know they hunt and eat too. That said, the cultural acceptability of changing the land and whether the elements would consider it a violation to help you get over subsistence-style living would be an interesting angle.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #46
    You want hard swallow pill? Horde needs to be almost wiped out so they can return to their "survivors" mode and status quo. To have them as super-power in the world was mistake from writers perspective. Horde should have been sons that do not follow their fathers footsteps and find their own honorable way, but on the other hand elves and undead kinda ruin whole thing...

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    I hear everyone giving Sylvanas sas, but come on they all suck

    Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

    Saurfang? He is a hypocrite. His Concept of honor is stupid. In a good war, its revealed that SAURFANG was the one who orchestrated the war of thorns. Alright, so hiring hundreads of assassins and poisoning the food supply of the enemy, butchering your way across all of ashenvale using lies and subterfuge and killing civilians unprovoked. Yeah no thats honorable, but helping his warchief from being killed is dishonorable. And what then? He betrays the entire horde. His reasoning is because of Sylvanas and Lordaeron, WHEN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT KILLED ATLEAST AS MANY IN THE WAR OF THORNS
    No comment. From what I understand, the Forsaken did the civilian shit behind the front lines, but idk.

    Baine? He fucking delievers the horde to the alliance YET AGAIN on a silver platter. He sent a piece of his own horn to the alliance, he collaborated with them instead of his own allies during the siege of Orgrimmar. Yeah people bring up Taurajo alot but come on it has legitemacy. Why did he even exile his people wanting revenge, are you kidding me? What kind of leader just says "No no, It was a legitimate target, just kill my people". There are dwarves wiping out entire tribes in the barrens, Balistas lined up at the great game, and he does nothing. Had it been Carine he would have marched from mulgore to dusthallow marsh untill every single alliance soldier was wiped out.
    So what he sent a piece of his horn? I imagine he felt heartbreak for Teldrassil's burning. Which all Tauren should've felt. And helping the Alliance in the Siege of Orgrimmar? Obviously, he was aiding with his knowledge of the city. Without a horde helping alliance, the Alliance would've been operating on scouting info, rather than directly being told about the city during the battle. It was good he did that.
    Lor'Themar?
    "Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin'dorei might have died out against the Scourge." NO. It was the forsaken that helped you. Remember the ghostlands and the tranquillen? You werent let into the horde until AFTER the forsaken has helped you with the remaining scourge
    "Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong." NO. You almost defected to the alliance and betrayed the horde.
    Serioulsy Lor'themar just shut up
    No, Garrosh basically used the elves for portals, scouting, and cannon fodder. He didn't like them. There's a reason Lor'themar was going to leave.

    Voljin didnt get a chance to be terrible, but he ordered the unprovoked attack on Ashran, and he apologised to jaina about the purge of dalaran, agreeing that butchering the sunreavers was justified
    It was, though. They betrayed Dalaran for Garrosh.

  8. #48
    It was, though. They betrayed Dalaran for Garrosh.
    So Jaina was just free to use Dalaran to lock the Divine Bell in Teldrassil? Hypocrite.

  9. #49
    Let's even ignore Ashenvale (though the OP is right that Thrall settled there before even meeting the Night Elves is right and the enlightened people harping about the alliance with them that hasn't even existed at the time are flat out wrong), there's still Mulgore which has plenty of free real estate or areas like Feralas or even Dustwallow. Thrall deliberately chose a barren shithole because his human upbringing fried his brain and infected him with green guilt and human potential.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    What joy is in this curse? lEts gIvE it To everYoNE!!
    This is, has always been and will forever continue to be fallactious bullshit. Sylvanas had to refocus her life after Arthas was killed and that included her changing her opinion on undeath. We have numerous sources on her no longer considering it a joyless curse, both in and out of game. She flat out talks about how undeath is superior to living on some occasions. Desperately clinging to her old opinions as if opinions never change is all sorts of wrong.

  10. #50
    Someone got paid to write this garbage, let that sink in.
    change can't wait.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    The Orcs were refugees, they had to settle on what land they could that didn't belong to another state, especially one that they had just fought alongside against the Burning Legion and at the time, the Night Elves were more than a match for the Orcs. Just because you're a refugee doesn't give you the right to go in and take over someone else's home.
    But they did just that regardless, the orcs drove off the Quilboar and butchered most of them to build their nation.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    I hear everyone giving Sylvanas sas, but come on they all suck

    Thrall? Oh yeah, he let his people starve in a desert and chose the harshest place on Azeroth for his people to settle in. Why? Becaue he wanted his people to suffer for what the did during the war. Yeah never mind that the massacre wasnt even their fault. Ashenvale was packed with food and space, but he let his people suffer regardless. Then he appoints Garrosh and leaves, even though Garrosh begs him to reconsider and says hes not ready. Right after, Cairne and Voljin Turn on him. Great job.

    Saurfang? He is a hypocrite. His Concept of honor is stupid. In a good war, its revealed that SAURFANG was the one who orchestrated the war of thorns. Alright, so hiring hundreads of assassins and poisoning the food supply of the enemy, butchering your way across all of ashenvale using lies and subterfuge and killing civilians unprovoked. Yeah no thats honorable, but helping his warchief from being killed is dishonorable. And what then? He betrays the entire horde. His reasoning is because of Sylvanas and Lordaeron, WHEN THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT KILLED ATLEAST AS MANY IN THE WAR OF THORNS

    Baine? He fucking delievers the horde to the alliance YET AGAIN on a silver platter. He sent a piece of his own horn to the alliance, he collaborated with them instead of his own allies during the siege of Orgrimmar. Yeah people bring up Taurajo alot but come on it has legitemacy. Why did he even exile his people wanting revenge, are you kidding me? What kind of leader just says "No no, It was a legitimate target, just kill my people". There are dwarves wiping out entire tribes in the barrens, Balistas lined up at the great game, and he does nothing. Had it been Carine he would have marched from mulgore to dusthallow marsh untill every single alliance soldier was wiped out.

    Lor'Themar?
    "Were it not for the Horde, the remaining sin'dorei might have died out against the Scourge." NO. It was the forsaken that helped you. Remember the ghostlands and the tranquillen? You werent let into the horde until AFTER the forsaken has helped you with the remaining scourge
    "Garrosh nearly severed the bond between us, but in the end it held strong." NO. You almost defected to the alliance and betrayed the horde.
    Serioulsy Lor'themar just shut up

    Voljin didnt get a chance to be terrible, but he ordered the unprovoked attack on Ashran, and he apologised to jaina about the purge of dalaran, agreeing that butchering the sunreavers was justified

    Seriously they all suck. Gallywix is terrible too, but atleast he KNOWS he is terrible which makes him less back than the others. The horde is doomed and so is the lore
    1) sylvanas blackmail to lor'themar reads in the shadow of the sun
    2) and yes it was the fault of garrosh it was all part of the plan

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    But they did just that regardless, the orcs drove off the Quilboar and butchered most of them to build their nation.
    So did the humans with trolls. The elves with trolls. The forsaken with the remaining living humans. The dwarves with the trolls and troggs.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    So did the humans with trolls. The elves with trolls. The forsaken with the remaining living humans. The dwarves with the trolls and troggs.
    Everyone does it, but people going on about the race I like didn't do shit is just plain wrong, each and every race in the wow universe has done and still does pretty despicable shit on a daily basis.

  15. #55
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    true
    many horde don't care about Sylv, they just hate what's coming next
    Amen bro, amen
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  16. #56
    Blizzard is working hard to make me dislike my faction more and more.
    At any moment they need to pick a side they run over to the Alliance lover side.

    The Horde is full of retarted Traitors.

    Currently not playing alot anymore but when i see the Horde story its a good thing that i dont since would get annoyed all the time.
    In Cata we still had the feeling we where the Horde fighting against enemies of the Horde Alliance and those outside the faction war.
    But we followed the Warchief and had faction pride, now the Horde is a messy crap faction. No structure or thing that binds the races together.

    I away said it and still do it: The Horde died with Garrosh.
    And basicly my Warcraft died in MoP.

  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Let's even ignore Ashenvale (though the OP is right that Thrall settled there before even meeting the Night Elves is right and the enlightened people harping about the alliance with them that hasn't even existed at the time are flat out wrong), there's still Mulgore which has plenty of free real estate or areas like Feralas or even Dustwallow. Thrall deliberately chose a barren shithole because his human upbringing fried his brain and infected him with green guilt and human potential.




    This is, has always been and will forever continue to be fallactious bullshit. Sylvanas had to refocus her life after Arthas was killed and that included her changing her opinion on undeath. We have numerous sources on her no longer considering it a joyless curse, both in and out of game. She flat out talks about how undeath is superior to living on some occasions. Desperately clinging to her old opinions as if opinions never change is all sorts of wrong.
    yes of course, how dare I disagree with the opinion of overlord sylvanas on what is best for everyone. obviously if her highness thinks something is a curse today its a curse and if she thinks its a cupcake tomorrow well damn it, its a cupcake now! not everyone is completely enthralled by the ever self sacrificing dark lady.

    lol @ refocus. She offs herself, finds out the afterlife for a zombie is absolute hell (go figure) and does everything in her power to do otherwise, BY giving everyone the same affliction.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  18. #58
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    All the Horde leaders need to die. It’s the only way we can truly get a fresh start as a faction.

    Put the player in charge of their race (Or replace the old leaders with less developed characters) and shift the focus of the story from major characters to lore.

  19. #59
    Herald of the Titans Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    I'm curious, is there such a thing as a civilain in orc society? They used to have pretty spartan tradition, where orcs kill talbuks to prove themselves. This still holds true in the current orc society, albeit with different animals. They carry a mantra of "Strength and Honor" aswell, which should indicate that orcs are still warriors, no matter what else they do.
    Nah not in the sense of azeroth civilians, i dont think they have it that way. Id say their old would be civilians, id want to say cripples too but it looks like (based on gul'dans cinematic) they arent part of a clan thus wouldnt really count towards an offense or defense force. but thats part of the story basically. As in a human would look at orcish rites of passage as barbaric, while an orc would look at a human farming or working as weakness. In the end though, humans didnt blow up azeroth and end up on draenor, its the other way around.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  20. #60
    Saurfang was pretty good, but the writers ruined him post MOP. Garrosh was pretty good, but the writers ruined him post Cata. Sylvanas was pretty good, but the writers ruined her post Legion. Lor[themar was ruined the second they decided to make him more than a common NPC. All the rest have always sucked.

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