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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Why is apotheosis so bad?

    Incurs a global cooldown when you activate it, meanwhile they changed shamans ascendance to provide healing when activated? The ability is a liability to have instead of light of the naaru.

  2. #2
    name a healing cd that doesn't incur a gcd

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    name a healing cd that doesn't incur a gcd

    Lay on hands and Gift of the Naaru, I'm sure there's others

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    name a healing cd that doesn't incur a gcd
    Guardian spirit doesn't incur a GCD, Ray of Hope doesn't incur a GCD. That's not the point anyway. They changed ascendance to heal when activated because they added a GCD to it. Apotheosis does not. It's a liability to activate it because by the time you get another heal out, it's 3 seconds from your last heal due to the GCD, which can put you behind on healing or even cause deaths, activating ascendance heals people, so you don't end up with no heal for 3 seconds when activating it.

    The point to using CDs should be to strengthen your dps/healing/ability to take hits, making it easier to deal damage, heal or stay alive. Not punish you.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 02:33 AM.

  5. #5
    So use it before damage happens, not during. Not hard to pre-plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth View Post
    So use it before damage happens, not during. Not hard to pre-plan.
    I'll just plan for the DPS to stop DPSing mobs so bursting doesn't go out of control. I can indeed plan whether they will stop or not. I can't control their or the tanks minds, sadly. If I could, healing wouldn't even be an effort.

    On my shaman, I can use ascendance without it being a liability. Apotheosis shouldn't be a liability to activate.

    Take notice of how I'm using the word should, that means it's how I think it should be. Not how it is now.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 03:06 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Guardian spirit doesn't incur a GCD, Ray of Hope doesn't incur a GCD. That's not the point anyway. They changed ascendance to heal when activated because they added a GCD to it. Apotheosis does not. It's a liability to activate it because by the time you get another heal out, it's 3 seconds from your last heal due to the GCD, which can put you behind on healing or even cause deaths, activating ascendance heals people, so you don't end up with no heal for 3 seconds when activating it.

    The point to using CDs should be to strengthen your dps/healing/ability to take hits, making it easier to deal damage, heal or stay alive. Not punish you
    are you saying apotheosis doesn't do that?

    evangelism doesn't do shit when you use it even though it incurs a gcd. hell, you even have to do things both before and after its cast for it to do anything.

    all raid wide healing CDs (and some personal throughput cds like wings, evangelism, etc.) all incur a gcd now. don't see why apotheosis should be any different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth View Post
    So use it before damage happens, not during. Not hard to pre-plan.
    pretty much

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    are you saying apotheosis doesn't do that?
    When you can fall behind or even have people die because you activated it? No, it doesn't do that. It's a liability to press the button to activate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    all raid wide healing CDs (and some personal throughput cds like wings, evangelism, etc.) all incur a gcd now. don't see why apotheosis should be any different.
    Ray of Hope(+50% healing) doesn't. Guardian spirit(+60% healing) doesn't. It's a liability to use it due to the GCD and having no effects upon activating. They added healing to shamans ascendance to offset the GCD when activating it, yet apotheosis does not have anything to offset it.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 03:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    When you can fall behind or even have people die because you activated it? No, it doesn't do that. It's a liability to press the button to activate it.
    so by your definition, evangelism isn't a cd. rapture isn't a cd. avenging wrath isn't a cd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Ray of Hope(+50% healing) doesn't. Guardian spirit(+60% healing) doesn't. It's a liability to use it due to the GCD and having no effects upon activating. They added healing to shamans ascendance to offset the GCD when activating it, yet apotheosis does not have anything to offset it.
    ray of hope is a pvp talent

    GS falls in the category of external cds (pain sup, hand of sac, bark, etc.)

    don't pretend like they're in the same category as personal output CDs (wings, apotheosis, ascendance, etc) or raid wide healing CDs (HTT, evangelism, flourish, etc.)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    so by your definition, evangelism isn't a cd. rapture isn't a cd. avenging wrath isn't a cd.
    Maybe you should try reading.


    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    ray of hope is a pvp talent
    So? PvP is a part of the game as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    GS falls in the category of external cds (pain sup, hand of sac, bark, etc.)
    So?

    You are completely missing the point. Ascendance has healing on activation to offset the GCD being added to it, apotheosis has exactly nothing to offset it.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 04:51 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    When you can fall behind or even have people die because you activated it? No, it doesn't do that. It's a liability to press the button to activate it.
    Then activate it when people are in no danger of death in a GCD.

    Not all healing cooldowns are "oh shit" buttons, you have to plan ahead when you'll need extra output
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Then activate it when people are in no danger of death in a GCD.
    If they are in no danger of death, then there is no point to me using CDs because I am managing fine without CDs.

    Ascendance has healing on activation to offset the added GCD in BFA. Why should apotheosis not have something to offset the GCD?
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 05:06 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    If they are in no danger of death, then there is no point to me using CDs because I am managing fine without CDs.
    Then you are doing it wrong, apotheosis is not an "oh shit" button to save people from immediate death. You have to plan ahead for when you'll need more holy words out
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Then you are doing it wrong, apotheosis is not an "oh shit" button to save people from immediate death. You have to plan ahead for when you'll need more holy words out
    How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss? On my shaman, I can handle all of this easily thanks to ascendance. On my holy priest? I can't even run with apotheosis because it's a liability to activate it.

    In Legion, I could activate it without risking deaths or falling behind on healing. I can't do that now. Shamans can activate ascendance without risking that after they added healing to the activation to offset the GCD.
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 05:21 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Maybe you should try reading.

    So? PvP is a part of the game as well.

    So?

    You are completely missing the point. Ascendance has healing on activation to offset the GCD being added to it, apotheosis has exactly nothing to offset it.
    these are your words:

    The point to using CDs should be to strengthen your dps/healing/ability to take hits, making it easier to deal damage, heal or stay alive. Not punish you.
    apotheosis makes your holy words come back quicker. that's strengthening your hps. not sure if you're intentionally trying to move goal posts here or just being dense.

    GS is off the GCD because all other tank externals are off the GCD. following that line of reasoning, personal throughput CDs (e.g. wings, apotheosis, ascendance) are all on the GCD.

    ray of hope is falls in the category of tank externals (it's a big external single target defensive). add on top that it's a pvp talent exclusive, so naturally it might have different rules it has to follow (e.g. hard CCs like poly can only last 8s at max in pvp compared to w/e it is in pve.)

    why does apotheosis need to have some on use effect just because ascendance has one? revival is both instant and a raid wide mass dispel, every other raid wide healing cd takes time and has no dispelling effect! blizzard! i demand homogenization!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss? On my shaman, I can handle all of this easily thanks to ascendance. On my holy priest? I can't even run with apotheosis because it's a liability to activate it.
    yep. homogenization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss? On my shaman, I can handle all of this easily thanks to ascendance. On my holy priest? I can't even run with apotheosis because it's a liability to activate it.
    You look at health bars of mobs and how quickly they expend. For bonus points look if DPS popped coolies.

    You don't, and that's would be a waste of apotheosis and apotheosis isn't supposed to be an "oh shit" button.

    What do you even mean by "fucking up a pull"?

    What do you even mean by "fucking up on a boss"?

    Yes, you can do that on a shaman, because he is more reactive healer, with proper better cooldowns.

    If you have such gripes because of apotheosis, maybe grab HW salvation? It's a more appropriate cooldown for reactive healing
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    these are your words:
    I never said it isn't a CD.


    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    apotheosis makes your holy words come back quicker. that's strengthening your hps. not sure if you're intentionally trying to move goal posts here or just being dense.
    It doesn't if you wipe because you activated it. That's the problem, it's a liability to activate it. They changed ascendance to not be a liability to activate. They should do the same for apotheosis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You look at health bars of mobs and how quickly they expend. For bonus points look if DPS popped coolies.

    You don't, and that's would be a waste of apotheosis and apotheosis isn't supposed to be an "oh shit" button.

    What do you even mean by "fucking up a pull"?

    What do you even mean by "fucking up on a boss"?

    Yes, you can do that on a shaman, because he is more reactive healer, with proper better cooldowns.

    If you have such gripes because of apotheosis, maybe grab HW salvation? It's a more appropriate cooldown for reactive healing
    How quickly mobs go down in health is not indicative of if they're going to kill them or not.

    Except in Legion I could use it like I use ascendance.

    HW salvation? For mythic plus or PvP? You're joking, right?
    Last edited by Heran; 2019-04-19 at 05:31 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Except in Legion I could use it like I use ascendance.
    And in Cataclysm i could land cheesy combustions and spread them on my fire mage. Things change. Often to the better. Like in this case, since it makes healers less similar to each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    HW salvation? For mythic plus or PvP? You're joking, right?
    That's you, not me, who wants apotheosis to be something it's not supposed to be, because you want holy priest to be like a shaman or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    How quickly mobs go down in health is not indicative of if they're going to kill them or not.
    You think that DH popped meta just to not kill this pack of mobs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    And in Cataclysm i could land cheesy combustions and spread them on my fire mage. Things change. Often to the better. Like in this case, since it makes healers less similar to each other.
    This is not a good change at all. Holy priests are the worse they have ever been over the iterations of it that I've played.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    That's you, not me, who wants apotheosis to be something it's not supposed to be, because you want holy priest to be like a shaman or something.
    No, I want the ability to not be a liability to use just like it was in Legion.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    This is not good at all. Holy priests are the worse they have ever been over the iterations of it that I've played.
    And change to apotheosis is going to do what, exactly? Except that it'll be some sort of preferential treatment "just because"? Holy priest actually drew my attention and made me stop playing healing shaman in BfA, so, yeah, it's just our opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    No, I want the ability to not be a liability to use just like it was in Legion.
    And it's not a liability if you use it for what it was designed for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

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