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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    And change to apotheosis is going to do what, exactly?
    Make it not a liability to use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    And it's not a liability if you use it for what it was designed for.
    "Use it for what it was designed for"? It's a CD you pop to increase your throughput, you don't use it unless you have to. If I need to use CDs, then shit has hit the fan. If shit hasn't hit the fan, I don't need CDs.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss? On my shaman, I can handle all of this easily thanks to ascendance. On my holy priest? I can't even run with apotheosis because it's a liability to activate it.

    In Legion, I could activate it without risking deaths or falling behind on healing. I can't do that now. Shamans can activate ascendance without risking that after they added healing to the activation to offset the GCD.
    They don't really want you to be able to save the group if there's fuck up. That's kind of their whole model of boss design now. Mistake = burst to death before anyone can react.

    That's driven by gear inflation - we outgear heroic raids so quickly now that they have to add in unforgiving mechanics or else everyone, even the most casual of players could just brute force everything except mythic with the ridiculous item level we reach 4 weeks into the tier.

    I don't really like it either, I liked it better when we were more constrained on mana but could save the raid a couple times at risk of going oom, but it hasn't worked that way for a long time now. Not really all that fun a playstyle imo... sitting there will full mana then watching someone go from full to dead in a gcd is lame.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2019-04-19 at 05:42 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss?.
    You don't and you're not supposed to. A healer isn't supposed to be able to always save everyone no matter how badly they fuck up.
    "We don't care what people say, we know the truth. Enough is enough with this horse s***. I am not a freak, I was born with my free gun. Don't tell me I'm less than my freedom."

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    They don't really want you to be able to save the group if there's fuck up. That's kind of their whole model of boss design now. Mistake = burst to death before anyone can react.

    That's driven by gear inflation - we outgear heroic raids so quickly now that they have to add in unforgiving mechanics or else everyone can just brute force everything with the ridiculous item level we reach by end of the tier.
    So why can I do exactly that on my shaman?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eace View Post
    You don't and you're not supposed to. A healer isn't supposed to be able to always save everyone no matter how badly they fuck up.
    So why can I do that on my shaman?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Make it not a liability to use?
    It's already not a liability, it significantly improves your HPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    "Use it for what it was designed for"? It's a CD you pop to increase your throughput, you don't use it unless you have to. If I need to use CDs, then shit has hit the fan. If shit hasn't hit the fan, I don't need CDs.
    And it already does exactly that, it improves your HPS and you don't use it unless you have to. You are talking about dealing with damage reactively, you react to what's happening right now and use tools that deal with that. Holy priest isn't the best choice for that, since you have only two cooldowns that can deal with this - Hymn and GA. Apotheosis is not an "oh shit" button, and you don't use it when someone will die in a GCD, since it doesn't give you any immediate healing, it doesn't even reduces cooldowns instantly, you still have to cast. I don't understand how anyone can consider using it as an "oh shit" button.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    So why can I do that on my shaman?
    Because it's a shaman, and we are talking about holy priests, these are different classes and specs, that while filling same role, do that differently.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because it's a shaman, and we are talking about holy priests, these are different classes and specs, that while filling same role, do that differently.
    Guess what? I could do the very same thing on my priest in previous iterations, even in Legion as the latest iteration I could recover with apotheosis. BFA? Nope, pressing it is a liability.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    So why can I do exactly that on my shaman?

    - - - Updated - - -



    So why can I do that on my shaman?
    Always? You can always save your group no matter how much they fuck up? You can go to, say, ML+19 and pull all the add packs up to the boss and not wipe because you're on your shaman? Sure.
    "We don't care what people say, we know the truth. Enough is enough with this horse s***. I am not a freak, I was born with my free gun. Don't tell me I'm less than my freedom."

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eace View Post
    Always? You can always save your group no matter how much they fuck up? You can go to, say, ML+19 and pull all the add packs up to the boss and not wipe because you're on your shaman? Sure.
    Don't put words in my mouth.

  9. #29
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Guess what? I could do the very same thing on my priest in previous iterations, even in Legion as the latest iteration I could recover with apotheosis. BFA? Nope, pressing it is a liability.
    Things change, and in order to make classes and spec play differently, bring back role/spec niches (and healers are the most important role to make different playstyles for).

    It doesn't matter what you think about this ability, it's still a net gain in healing output. The best part is that it's optional, and you can just pick a passive ability to be able to play more reactively
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire Heran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Things change, and in order to make classes and spec play differently, bring back role/spec niches (and healers are the most important role to make different playstyles for).
    Bad changes are not worth sticking to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think about this ability, it's still a net gain in healing output
    Not when people die because you spent a GCD on it instead of casting another heal. Then it's a liability. People shouldn't be dying because you activate a CD. They fixed this for shamans, because it was ridiculous that people would die when you activate a CD to increase your throughput.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Bad changes are not worth sticking to.
    Agree, but making healers different is not a bad change, it's a great change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Not when people die because you spent a GCD on it instead of casting another heal.
    Then jokes on you for using wrong ability at wrong time and expecting it to work. I mean, you could try to top people off using just holy nova. It won't work, but you could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth.
    I stated that you are not supposed to always be able to save the group if they fuck up bad enough. You said you can do it on your shaman. Your words.

    My point was that you can't always save the group. No matter what class you play. Sure, some classes are better at it, but no class can do it every single time.
    "We don't care what people say, we know the truth. Enough is enough with this horse s***. I am not a freak, I was born with my free gun. Don't tell me I'm less than my freedom."

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Agree, but making healers different is not a bad change, it's a great change.
    This is a bad change. There was no downside to using it in Legion, now it's a liability to use.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    This is a bad change. There was no downside to using it in Legion, now it's a liability to use.
    Guess you've made up your mind and you won't listen to other perspectives, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over... why make the thread then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eace View Post
    I stated that you are not supposed to always be able to save the group if they fuck up bad enough. You said you can do it on your shaman. Your words.

    My point was that you can't always save the group. No matter what class you play. Sure, some classes are better at it, but no class can do it every single time.
    My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.

  16. #36
    you're being disingenuous saying apotheosis is bad specifically because it doesn't do anything on the global you press it.

    people are dying in those situations because either:
    a. you didn't have the foresight to pop a CD in preparation of incoming damage
    or
    b. they fucked up (refreshed bursting stacks, stood in fire, etc.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.
    you're telling me that apotheosis isn't as strong as using two 3min cds together AND a properly set up cloudburst?

    say it isn't so!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    you're telling me that apotheosis isn't as strong as using two 3min cds together AND a properly set up cloudburst?

    say it isn't so!
    Ascendance is what provides the initial healing needed to recover upon activation. Without ascendance healing on activation, it would be a wipe. It was a wipe previous to the change.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.
    Classes are different, and that's not a bad thing.

    For example, as a priest you can handle spread out AoE healing a lot better than a resto shaman. Classes have their strength and weaknesses.

    If you get too many stacks of Bursting and you're playing a priest, it's not a problem with priests. It's a problem with the DPS of the group not doing their part.
    "We don't care what people say, we know the truth. Enough is enough with this horse s***. I am not a freak, I was born with my free gun. Don't tell me I'm less than my freedom."

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eace View Post
    Classes are different, and that's not a bad thing.
    It is bad when there's such a disproportionate representation of them in mythic plus due to the differences. As you go higher, holy priests practically stops existing.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    It is bad when there's such a disproportionate representation of them in mythic plus due to the differences. As you go higher, holy priests practically stops existing.
    That's not due to this specific difference. As you go higher up, healing becomes less about "everyone fucked up, can I react" to "we have a plan for everything that we need to execute or we wipe." And if you have a plan to take high damage apotheosis is fine because you can plan ahead... if you don't have a plan and you take huge damage, sayonara in a high m+.

    You're speaking from the perspective of someone who is not doing super high keys. I'm telling you, I don't like how it feels to heal at that level either (OMG I know your shaman can do it so don't say that again), but they have spent the past several expansions de-emphasizing reactive triage healing as they shower us with more and more gear and damage gets burstier (that's also why we're supposed to dps now - we can easily meet healing requirements in m+, only struggle is stopping the burst damage).
    Last edited by Scrod; 2019-04-19 at 06:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

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