Anti-vaccine parents are often college-educated and shop at Whole Foods

[White Goodman1]

Anti-vaxxers? Where do people come up with this stuff? Also food is false, I live from the energy of the sun.

[Mackeyser]

YOu can not get pneumonia from flu vaccine.

Sigh... it was a multi-stage process.

1) Got the flu vaccine.

2) Got the flu (this happened 3 times in a row). If I had a dollar for each time a Dr told me, "this shouldn't be happening", I wouldn't be able to pay off my house, but I might be able to take a nice vacation. That's not an exaggeration.

3) Compromised immune system and flu allowed pneumococcal bacteria to flourish.

4) Got pneumonia.

It's the same way a cold...which is a virus... can lead to pneumonia.

Colds don't give you pneumonia, but they lead to it.

Hope that clears it up.

[Castration]

college-educated anti-vaccine parents that shop at Whole Foods deserve to get sick from their Organic overpriced food and be wiped off the earth.

[Zardoz541]

YOu can not get pneumonia from flu vaccine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337467/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...e-201410227487

I'm the first person to challenge someone when they say "I got the flu from the flu shot!", much in the same vein as what you are doing here.
However, in this instance, the gentleman/lady is correct - it IS in fact possible (albeit uncommon) for interstitial pneumonia to develop post-vaccine.

[Mackeyser]

Sorry for your loss but if you dont vaccinate your children your not only endangering your own children but others as well. Herd immunity is a thing look it up. 100 years ago the Spanish flu killed tens of millions of people. We cannot take the risk even its not 100% perfect.

Firstly, don't say "sorry for your loss, but..." That isn't helpful. And please don't presume to lecture me on how a disease can kill a child.

Secondly, herd immunity doesn't mean dick when it's YOUR child you're putting in the ground.

This is an especially tough time of year for me as my daughter's birthday was April 28th. And honestly, when I think of all the life she didn't live, it's extremely hard to give a flying fuck about anything beyond the pain of missing her...every....single...day.

As for "taking the risk"... I took it. I DID vaccinate my kids. My daughter is dead BECAUSE of it.

I'm a former network engineer and went to a top engineering school. I know, love and support science.

I understand "herd immunity" and all of that. I get THAT.

What I don't think those that demonize those who either don't vaccinate or are hesitant is that there's a stark reality.

Either...nothing will happen.

OR...

Something terrible will happen and society won't give a fuck. They don't.

Bottom line is that other people's dead kids are just the "cost of doing business".

As someone who's actually paid that cost... you can't possibly know how much you're asking when you say things like "we can't take the risk".

It's one thing for there to be a risk. But there are so many problems with the current system that ONLY talking to parents is missing the point.

If vaccines where held to the same standard as freaking TYLENOL... it'd be different.

Lastly, for those who are among the "extremely rare" who lose a child to a vaccine, you have no idea the dystopian nightmare that awaits them.

Maybe the vaccine industry needs to earn people's trust back with good science and good faith as opposed to looking to legislate themselves into an unaccountable monopoly, extract monopoly rents and demonize anyone who questions their often less than good faith efforts.

Lastly... if we REALLY care about herd immunity... then why aren't we holding the vaccine industry accountable to ensure that at the very least, their vaccines work?

Some do and have for decades... measles (although apparently, that one needs boosters later in life, so maybe don't make the argument that vaccines give life long immunity?), mumps, rubella, polio... there are tried and true vaccines...although continued independent testing should be on going and rigorous to ensure that they work and cause no or very little harmful effects. The standards should be high and the testing independent and rigorous. Parents should have confidence in the vaccine, not just confidence that if it all goes wrong, they're shit outta luck.

Cuz, ya know... if the vaccines don't work (that could include inefficacies based on gender, race, age, or other genetic disposition)....then we don't have herd immunity even if every single person on the planet has that vaccine. And what could fix that? SCIENCE!

[Mackeyser]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337467/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...e-201410227487

I'm the first person to challenge someone when they say "I got the flu from the flu shot!", much in the same vein as what you are doing here.
However, in this instance, the gentleman/lady is correct - it IS in fact possible (albeit uncommon) for interstitial pneumonia to develop post-vaccine.

The Chief Coroner of LA County called me personally to say that it was the worst case of infant pneumonia he'd seen in his 30+ years as a coroner.

it took them two months to establish the cause of death...and I know LA county has a child death investigative unit. I read about it several years later in an LA Magazine story, I think. I'm certain they were looking for some sort of rare toxin or something because normally pneumonia isn't that...for lack of a better word...virulent. 2 hours from the onset of symptoms to the estimated time of death.

And as this was in 1996, I'm pretty sure it was Pneumovax that she was given at her two month checkup. She died at 2 months old, so she was too young to get the flu vaccine. However, in CA, they'd changed the vaccine schedule and the 2 month vaccine load was pretty big (I understand it's even bigger now) and bigger than the one my kids got in 1992 and 1994.

No one knows definitively what happened. Was it purely a reaction to Pneumovax? Was it the combination of vaccines in her less than optimal immune system? Was she genetically predisposed to being susceptible to pneumonia? Was she allergic to something?

No one had answers and I know they looked.

I've spent a LOT of time doing research...until I stopped. No science was going to save her at that point.

I think it's important to repeat that I'm not anti-vax. It was a long and painful road to even be able to type that.

If even half of the energy spent on demonizing parents who may or may not have legitimate concerns was directed at the vaccine industry, I think many if not most of the issues would be addressed and we'd all have what we want...safety for our kids and immunity from disease.

[Najnaj]

Sigh... it was a multi-stage process.

1) Got the flu vaccine.

2) Got the flu (this happened 3 times in a row). If I had a dollar for each time a Dr told me, "this shouldn't be happening", I wouldn't be able to pay off my house, but I might be able to take a nice vacation. That's not an exaggeration.

3) Compromised immune system and flu allowed pneumococcal bacteria to flourish.

4) Got pneumonia.

It's the same way a cold...which is a virus... can lead to pneumonia.

Colds don't give you pneumonia, but they lead to it.

Hope that clears it up.

It certainly does not.

We know that the flu vaccine is rarely very effective and works best as a heard immunizer. If you have special sensitivities you should not get it and any doctor would know this. If you are so sensitive that a flue shot leaves you in a weakened state and you did this 3 times ....

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337467/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...e-201410227487

I'm the first person to challenge someone when they say "I got the flu from the flu shot!", much in the same vein as what you are doing here.
However, in this instance, the gentleman/lady is correct - it IS in fact possible (albeit uncommon) for interstitial pneumonia to develop post-vaccine.

I don't disagree with this but...2 cases.

I can see a far more likely scenario...

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I feel we should mention vegans saving the earth one animal product at a time while being packaged in plastic. All diseases just melt away.

[Mackeyser]

You do know how the flu vaccine works right?

You can basically skip step one.

Your doctors should not be giving you flu vaccines if your immune system is compromised.

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I'd rather have died from bleeding out after a corn chip cut a deep gash in my gum than exposed a bunch of immunosuppressed children who had leukemia.

I've had every vaccine under the sun because I had to be treated around children who could easily be killed by any introduced disease. Some of them have gone on to do a lot more than I have in my life.

What happened to you genuinely sucks but it sounds like something that was undiagnosed rather than the vaccine itself.

Well, considering I'm not anti-vax, I dunno why you'd think I take issue with you getting vaccinated in order to protect kids getting chemo.

As for your last comment, yeah, it sucks. I try to make peace with it. Some days are better than others, even 23 years later. The anniversary of the day she died is ALWAYS a hard day.

I know the LA Coroners office spent two months trying to figure out what happened. Could it have been something undiagnosed? I suppose.

However, the circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise. She had her 2 month vaccine shots... and was dead two days later... from a disease one of the vaccines she was given was meant to prevent.

My issue is with the fucked up vaccine industry, not with vaccines.

There is a difference.

I believe in western medicine. As a Service Connected Disabled Vet, I partake and am the frequent recipient of western medicine. And... I think big Pharma is fucked up. Doesn't make every med is fucked up or every drug company is fucked up (although I don't have an example of an exception).

I just think that any scientific venture that is self-regulated, self-testing and is obscenely profitable is by definition not trustable based on the science. The science is compromised.

I'm not anti-vax. I'm absolutely all for vaccine reform, specifically for independent testing, more rigorous standards and a published deferred schedule for immunosuppressed, premature or otherwise compromised infants.

I want vaccines to work...for everyone...and without killing children...even 1 in a million.

[Spl4sh3r]

What is it called when you make random correlation when they actually have no value together?

[Mackeyser]

That all fucking sucks but please broaden your scope to "big pharma" a lot of people are dying because of the cost of treatments and inferior quality treatments being provided by some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Also fight for post natal diagnostic tests.

I was 2 and almost died from head trauma because I wasn't tested for a pretty common genetic disease

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#low hanging fruit

Broaden my scope to big Pharma? Already there! Done, my friend!

I was specifically trying to keep my scope narrow so as not to muddy the waters in this discussion.

But yeah... I've got stories upon stories...

[Thage]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-w...UEAyMCuJrp0mN4

It is sad seeing our best and brightest holding onto anti intellectual viewpoints. Where did we go wrong as an society? How can we restore trust in science and technology?

I think the anti vax ideology is a form of narcissism.

Book smart and gullible aren't mutually exclusive personality traits.

[Mackeyser]

It certainly does not.

We know that the flu vaccine is rarely very effective and works best as a heard immunizer. If you have special sensitivities you should not get it and any doctor would know this. If you are so sensitive that a flue shot leaves you in a weakened state and you did this 3 times ....

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I don't disagree with this but...2 cases.

I can see a far more likely scenario...

Well, see... do you see a LOT of doctors? I do.

They REALLY push the flu vaccine. Like REALLY. They have my records right there on the computer....

By the way, I agree with you and after the third time... I just started refusing. After pointing out the results... my hospital stays are also in my records... the docs stopped giving me shit about refusing the shot.

But I've had private practice AND VA doctors really put on the full court press... even as recently as the last two years...

As for a more "likely scenario" I'm pretty sure if there was an easier answer, they'd have found it. LA County has a pretty extensive unit that investigates these things and they run very expensive tests and then run the results by some amazing people.

Also, considering how strong the reaction was, it's unlikely it's anything simple as you're suggesting. Also, you're presuming without her medical record or any forensic results to know more than a team of forensic pathologists and other experts.

That's pretty presumptuous.

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What is it called when you make random correlation when they actually have no value together?

Random correlation?

[cparle87]

Sigh... it was a multi-stage process.

1) Got the flu vaccine.

2) Got the flu (this happened 3 times in a row). If I had a dollar for each time a Dr told me, "this shouldn't be happening", I wouldn't be able to pay off my house, but I might be able to take a nice vacation. That's not an exaggeration.

3) Compromised immune system and flu allowed pneumococcal bacteria to flourish.

4) Got pneumonia.

It's the same way a cold...which is a virus... can lead to pneumonia.

Colds don't give you pneumonia, but they lead to it.

Hope that clears it up.

Good. You're the 1 in a million. Now shut up before you convince any of the 999,999 that they might be you and end up hurting someone else. Every healthy child who could be immunized but is not is one child who legitimately can't be immunized who gets sick.

And I'm sure asking your doctor for something to help bolster your immune system never crossed your mind.

If a person takes a vaccine and gets sick, THEN they can talk. But coming on here and sharing horror stories to try to convince others not to take vaccines should be criminal.

[Mackeyser]

Good. You're the 1 in a million. Now shut up before you convince any of the 999,999 that they might be you and end up hurting someone else. Every healthy child who could be immunized but is not is one child who legitimately can't be immunized who gets sick.

And I'm sure asking your doctor for something to help bolster your immune system never crossed your mind.

If a person takes a vaccine and gets sick, THEN they can talk. But coming on here and sharing horror stories to try to convince others not to take vaccines should be criminal.

Easy, slick. I’ve got Crohn’s and there weren’t any meds when I was diagnosed. I already do things to bolster my immune system. You don’t gain any credibility or authority by inferring people you disagree with are stupid. That’s just intellectually lazy.

Also, you show that you didn’t read what I wrote and only skimmed in order to put out a self-serving response.

I said that I wasn’t anti-vax, resumed vaccinating my kids after a bit and was only responding because it’s not a binary situation and even in supporting vaccination, there are legit concerns that the vaccine industry needs to address as well as there needs to be more and more rigorous testing and it all needs to be independently done.

Hope that clears it up.

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99% of the time I think the government should not make choices for people. Vaccines are one of the few things I think you should not have a choice. Your kid gets vaccinated or you get the fuck out of the country, pretty simple.

It’s not that simple. Not every vaccine has the track record of polio or MMR. And with the complete lack of independent testing, you’re saying everyone has to put untested chemicals in their bodies or leave.

Well, plenty of vets deployed to Iraq an$ Afghanistan were forced when deployed to take unspecified vaccines and prophylactic meds with little recourse and due to complete lack of independent testing, vets have no idea the pathology of their illnesses.

Should that be the case? In a perfect world, but I find it discomfiting that when it comes to vaccines, there is no room for critique or even to question if they work.

When I was a kid, no one had ever heard of an adult booster for the MMR or chickenpox or other baseline vaccines. Why are they recommended now? Is it due to reformulation? Environment? Pollution? Something else or a combo of things?

Let me be clear. People should be vaccinated AND we should be rigorously holding that system accountable.

They are not mutually exclusive ideas. Rather, the benefits of herd immunity actually rely on the broad efficaciousness of vaccines.

Let’s just say that if vaccines were held to the same standards as Tylenol, we probably wouldn’t be having this convo.