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  1. #61
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    By that logic if Mussolini got fed up with Hitler's craziness and had him assassinated, that would make him an Allies "puppet" even if he continued his own country's war against the Allies because... WoW logic. Like I said, the posters don't make sense. Not wanting to genocide the Alliance does not mean you want to be subservient to them. THAT'S the duality I'm deriding.
    What makes you think the Horde will keep fighting or even exist after this? They’re killing Horde soldiers right now. Horde soldiers who are perfectly justified to be angry at the Alliance (Sunreavers at Jaina). To free someone who also killed Horde soldiers to aid the Alliance.

    The Horde leaders are quite literally killing the Horde to help the Alliance. That’s not moderate. That’s subservience.

  2. #62
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    After MoP the Warsong and Kor'kron became pretty 'tainted' lorewise, so we can't use them for much, or rather, Blizz is too lazy to use them and properly address how they're viewed or what's going on in the aftermath.

    We're quickly running into similar problems with the Sunreavers and the Forsaken as a whole. I mean hell, the broken mask on the Forsaken symbol is basically Sylvs face, and I'm pretty sure it's only got a bird and arrows because of HER really.


    What is Blizz going to do once we lose what's left of these forces? There's not much left of the Horde soon since the AU-Mag'har don't really use the MU or AU clans they just have their aesthetics.
    It all just returns to Blizzards biggest problem with it comes to the lore/atmosphere of the game, and that is that they can't find a way to make long lasting characters in the game stick compared to the amount of characters they kill.

    Because of this, the game is getting more hollow as times goes on and the story of the game is being carried by fewer and fewer characters. The Horde is not the only faction who has this problem, just look at the Worgen and Gnomes. If their leaders die, the entire race has no apperant leadership.

    Instead of making characters, that can stand on their own, who have their own story-lines and who does not serve the player as a servant, Blizzard burns their characters for short stories, where they end up as a "followers". Like the Worgen could have gotten alot by setting Crowley, his daughter and maybe other royals of the worgen up as individual characters, who interact with Greymane, but that is not the case.

    For me, this action is a clear sign of two terrible scenarioes: Either Blizzard seriously do not know how to rebuild the complexity of their world(creating politics within races like with the Council of the Three Hammers) or they simply don't want to invest the time to make WoW last longer, only extending the overall story to a point, where they could end it quickly if it is needed.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  3. #63
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jshadowhunter View Post
    I would, but the problem is that Garrosh was hit with a blatant not-see stick so there was no reason for anybody to stick around.
    Yeah but so is Sylvanas with her "effective measures" which are against the principles of the Horde. It's kinda the same stick as Garrosh (even the old god stuff, her holding the dagger)

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    What makes you think the Horde will keep fighting or even exist after this? They’re killing Horde soldiers right now. Horde soldiers who are perfectly justified to be angry at the Alliance (Sunreavers at Jaina). To free someone who also killed Horde soldiers to aid the Alliance.

    The Horde leaders are quite literally killing the Horde to help the Alliance. That’s not moderate. That’s subservience.
    Since when does "I'm doing this thing that helps me, that coincidentally also helps you, so I guess that means I'm your slave" make any sense?

  5. #65
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    As long as faction biased ppl exist there will be this problem. There is nothing wrong with faction pride but when that morphs into "rawr finish the alliance!" Or "blarg! End the horde!" This will happen.

    Moment ppl realize it's a sub based game and neither side can have total victory, it will start the fixing process. This could have been easier with alliance hitting lorderon first. But too late now. Now the cost is a character and that's that.
    I've been saying this for a while. The reason why this game is better storywise when we are fighting a force unified against, like the lich king or the legion, and putting the faction war on the sidelines, it makes the focus on the story that WORKS in this game the better. To have an enemy we can actually defeat and feel that satisfaction from doing so.

    The alliance and horde will NEVER defeat one another, because the game WON'T ALLOW IT. So making the focus of the expansion a full on war between two opposing sides that can't truly beat one another was ALWAYS going to end with disappointment and disdain.

    The people wanting faction war thinking it could have gone any other way then this and blaming the writers for it only going the one way it could have gone have and always will the cancer of this fanbase.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The last pragmatic Horde leader was Lor'themar. But even for my tastes (read: fuck this stupid-ass war), he's too buddy-buddy with the Alliance in 8.2.
    I mean, the straw that broke the camel's back for him in the previous faction war and made him decide to jump ship was the incident where Aethas and Rommath unleashed a Sha from a box. Where:
    - neither of them died
    - both of them were informed that there is indeed a Sha in that box
    - they knew that messing with it was dangerous as both of them made comparisons to demons in boxes and elementals in boxes all by themselves.

    That's not really pragmatic (though other than looking at it through the perspective of plot contrivance caused by poorly thought-out writing, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly that was).

    Especially when Sylvanas was right on their doorstep, with a significant force in Tranquillien already beyond the doorstep. And while she wasn't exactly an ardent Garrosh supporter by any means, she wasn't a fan of Alliance either. Especially of an Alliance nation bordering her after she already spent 4.0 kicking almost all of the Alliance out of the continent of Lordaeron. On top of that the relations between her and Lor'themar were strained at the time. Finally, given how it's her that caused the introduction of Blood Elves into the Horde in the first place, a thing for which she fought tooth and nail, there was also a chance that she'd feel scorned if they left (in the middle of the war to join the enemy no less) and act on that.

    And not only did the Forsaken vastly outnumber the Blood Elves and they already had a significant force right in the middle of their territory, but unlike them their main forces were in their nation and ready to strike, not on an island on the other side of Azeroth. And their leader was former Ranger General of Quel'Thalas and knew every nook and cranny in the land.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    At least we're left with that one narrative bubble to enjoy. Ever since pre patch they've just been popping them left and right. Makes you wonder what'll be the Horde's story in next expac (assuming we get one).
    Walk of atonement through different Alliance cities.


    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Gotta love the mindless dualism here. Either you want to kill all the Alliance or you're the boy-king's vassals. No middle ground at all. Nope, none.
    How about you read the entire post you responded to? Because it kinda contains the reason as to why that duality is present there.


    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    By that logic if Mussolini got fed up with Hitler's craziness and had him assassinated, that would make him an Allies "puppet" even if he continued his own country's war against the Allies because... WoW logic. Like I said, the posters don't make sense. Not wanting to genocide the Alliance does not mean you want to be subservient to them. THAT'S the duality I'm deriding.
    Except you pulled the notion that either of the main three rebels in the Horde want to continue the war with the Alliance out of the Nether. Baine in particular would get an aneurysm before he'd fight his masters.


    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Since when does "I'm doing this thing that helps me, that coincidentally also helps you, so I guess that means I'm your slave" make any sense?
    Freeing Jaina's brother didn't help Baine personally. Or anyone else in the Horde. Killing Sunreavers because they were pissed off at Jaina didn't help Thrall.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The people wanting faction war thinking it could have gone any other way then this and blaming the writers for it only going the one way it could have gone have and always will the cancer of this fanbase.
    Where on Earth have you seen the players that wanted the faction war?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  7. #67
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    Where on Earth have you seen the players that wanted the faction war?
    you kidding? People have been complaining for a faction war on these and other wow forums for years. They complained about it with mist how that worked out trying to teach a lesson in balance and hated that. People have been crying for a faction for ages, the whole faction pride thing only achieved though wanting to beat the opposing side.

  8. #68
    Mechagnome Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Uh you realize for most classes alliance pulls ahead in racials? Shadowmeld is OP for M+ etc.
    Isn't shadowmeld only good in M+ bc of its interactions with reaping which is a temp affix?

    I'm fairly certain for raiding the Horde racials are still by far the best sans >maybe< KT tanks but even then I'd still rather have zerking or torrent.
    Honorary member of the Baine fanclub, the only member really.

  9. #69
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Isn't shadowmeld only good in M+ bc of its interactions with reaping which is a temp affix?

    I'm fairly certain for raiding the Horde racials are still by far the best sans >maybe< KT tanks but even then I'd still rather have zerking or torrent.
    It's good for skipping packs too, or interrupting certain boss or targeted player mechanics.

    half of the classes's highest simming dps races are Alliance as well, its really no longer a huge advantage in terms off races anymore, there is always a few races that sneak past blizzard's balancing act, such as Trolls on Jaina, and Goblins on KJ
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That is what I'm getting at. They're a union of clans rather than with the clans as a formal separation of battlegroups like they were in some of the earlier games or an artifact title reserved for a few leftover organisations like with the MU orcs. We don't need them to be known as such to see that's what they are, the story is told visually when we see a voidcaster nom a footman's soul or Laughing Skulls call over Goren like they did against the Iron Horde. There's a lot of continuity packed into very little screentime. And they're enough of a blank slate that there's nothing BFA can do to really fuck them up. Hell, they also create a lot of possible interaction, especially with the MU orcs, such as rediscovering the clan identities, the differing conception of honor, the fact that they're essentially Garrosh's fantasy orc faction and so on. Best addition among the Horde allied races by far.
    As a Orc fan, the Mag'har are a blessing to me. They are not yet tainted by Thrall cult of personality. They actually have vibrant tribal cultures in comparison to our Orcs. Let us hope that Blizzard does not pile-drive them into the ground.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Is the resource thing a retcon that didn't exist in WC3? Yup, and so were the WC3 orcs in their entirety. But then the orcs in WC3 were all equally as bland as their WC2 counterparts. It's just that they were all disposable noblesavage stereotypes rather than disposable destructive stereotypes. The only exception was Grom, who moved the entire plot along. The reason the WC3 Horde fails as a consistent direction is because it has no proactivity or goals save vegetating. It exists, and having confronted its past inwardly and outwardly in WC3 and TFT it now has nothing to build towards. They live in a place they like. The race is in perfect accord with their glorious leader from the first time we see it on-screen except an element that's removed. Their buddies are, per WC3, identical to them except in aesthetic and having less history going for them. WoW realized this fairly quickly and it's why you had the Forsaken introduced, the resource problem even early on with Warsong Gulch, vastly expanded upon in Wrath with things like Glory and the orcish disillusionment with Thrall and finally pushed to the forefront with Cataclysm. The Thrall Horde isn't boring because it's good, it's boring because it has no goals, no friction and no struggles. It's Anduin's Alliance sixteen years in advance.
    This.

    Thrall itself serves as a self-flagellating messianic figure who enforces this worldview upon the Orcs. Hell, he literally created a rational reason for war when he settled the Horde in a barren desert, therefore creating the need for the Horde to fight for fertile lands. When Garrosh told Thrall that he left Garrosh to pick up his pieces, he was right, and that is tragic. That is his only true "contribution" to the Horde, that and he helped the peon issue a bit, nothing more.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'd say that both BFA and Cata were demonstration of what they consider 'world characters' that all people should have fun working with like Jaina and Thrall, even amidst faction wars. Legion is an extrapolation of this where all the 'world characters' are extremely Alliance coded. Hell, WoD had us following along one of the WC2 cast in fighting the original betrayer of the orcish race and destroying the WC2 Horde. Noblesavagery has (luckily were it not for what was there instead) never had the center stage. Thrall as a person has, but not any organisation he was a part of. Even saving the world due to one's connection to it is outsourced to an Alliance-coded character like Magni. Assuming the Horde's irrelevance on the basis of its constantly shrinking cast and the irrelevance of its entire main roster, save Thrall at the end of this as well as what we've seen before is a pretty rational conclusion.
    You say that, but in 8.2 the Horde has a solid representative in Nazjatar while it's the Alliance who gets shafted with the total absence of Tyrande and/or Malfurion and c-lister Shandris being present instead. The best tie to a Shadowlands expansion (in theory) is Vol'jin who is already making waves there. The fight against N'zoth is almost certain to involve the Horde given that Sylvanas is highly likely to be ousted by this point. Thrall is coming back and I doubt it's just to sit in Orgrimmar. And in 8.0 the saving the world plot involved the Horde more or less exclusively as the Alliance had no motivation to even enter Uldir beyond helping Brann ransack the place for loot.

    So this is actually a case where I'd argue for the "wait and see" point that I usually don't like used against me (sorry in advance for the slight hypocrisy).
    Last edited by Jastall; 2019-04-22 at 12:44 AM.

  12. #72
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Since when does "I'm doing this thing that helps me, that coincidentally also helps you, so I guess that means I'm your slave" make any sense?
    "I'm doing this thing that helps you by killing people that hate you and you alone after we helped you get your brother back because..."

    There are no Horde characters left.

  13. #73
    I am Murloc! Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Fair point.

    I guess the best we can hope for at this point is a hard reboot via classic with a different team of writers. Let Golden and co keep pissing in this sandpit if the higher ups can’t/won’t fire them for whatever reason. There’s not much hope for modern WoW anymore.
    Yeah the only bad thing, most of the rdnecks will complain the classic servers aren't following the same thing as they did previously, heck for all we know they will applause the lich king, Illidan and Kael, Vashj, KT are killed cartoon villains without any real interaction with others characters like Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande or Rommant to name a few.

    Man I really hope the witcher guy will take the job of Afrasiabi and kicks out Golden and Danuser
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    you kidding? People have been complaining for a faction war on these and other wow forums for years. They complained about it with mist how that worked out trying to teach a lesson in balance and hated that. People have been crying for a faction for ages, the whole faction pride thing only achieved though wanting to beat the opposing side.
    I'm not kidding at all. Since you're not some kind of a mystical guru that reached awakening, the obviousness of how the faction war cannot result in anything other than the endless status quo being reaffirmed didn't dawn just on your majestic self but pretty much everyone with a brain. As such, everyone with a brain didn't want a faction war because it's pointless in the confines of WoW. I've been on this forum in the years since MoP and I sure as shit have not seen some push for a faction war story.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-04-22 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  15. #75
    Next expansion will probably feel like how most of the Legion did... with the Horde not having any representation. All of the Broken Shore and Argus stuff involved neutral Alliance or "Long time no see" Alliance... We're at the point that the Horde has so few characters that they're not represented barely at all when there's a 3rd enemy.

    It's gonna be us working with Anduin and his friends.


    Faction wars suck and it really sucks that it's become the only thing the Horde ever does.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    "I'm doing this thing that helps you by killing people that hate you and you alone after we helped you get your brother back because..."

    There are no Horde characters left.
    That's the thing right there. You're saying that a character isn't Horde unless they're out to spill Alliance blood. And if they're in the Horde but do good things then they must want to be Alliance slaves. If you can't see the inanity of that thought process I don't know what to tell you. Where was all this "Thrall wants the Horde to be the Alliance's slaves" shtick when he was in charge and trying to make peace. You know where, nowhere. Because it's a retarded, stupid headcanon that people constant regurgitate.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You say that, but in 8.2 the Horde has a solid representative in Nazjatar while it's the Alliance who gets shafted with the total absence of Tyrande and/or Malfurion and c-lister Shandris being present instead. The best tie to a Shadowlands expansion (in theory) is Vol'jin who is already making waves there. The fight against N'zoth is almost certain to involve the Horde given that Sylvanas is highly likely to be ousted by this point. Thrall is coming back and I doubt it's just to sit in Orgrimmar. And in 8.0 the saving the world plot involved the Horde more or less exclusively as the Alliance had no motivation to even enter Uldir beyond helping Brann ransack the place for loot.
    I think you're mistaking logical presence that can result in character development with real screen time. While Bob, Thalyssra and the Nightborne are definitely more fitting characters to be going to Nazjatar than the Alliance cast and their only off-base character Nathanos just leave after a while that doesn't mean the Alliance isn't heavily involved. Jaina looks to be getting a lot of screen time again, she leads the Kul Tiran fleet, helps seal Azshara, teams up with them and chats with Shandris. I think it's a mistake to put her there, but both sides to get about equal to do. The issue in Mists expansion is that while the Horde gets a lot of screen time, it's usually for the purposes of killing other Horde.

    Uldir was a Zandalari plot almost exclusively, but when it slipped out of that capacity, notice that both Brann and Magni are Alliance-coded and even the Horde version had you teaming up with Brann despite having never even seen him related to Uldir in the Horde version. This should be a job for Talanji, who has so much connection with the place and discovered what's up with it, on top of killing G'huun with Vol'jin's glaive in canon, but no, it's a dwarf telling you about his brother's time running as Ironforge during war.

    This isn't to say the Alliance is doing great being the Horde's nannies again who's own plot effectively ends, but that the places where the factions appear and don't appear is fairly consistent.

    @cparle87

    Jaina, who was in the Baine role before Cata/Mists got a ton of hate for her peace-ing by Alliance fans and rightly so. War in warcraft was also a common talking point back then to the point where Blizzard mentioned it in interviews for the renewing of the faction war in Wrath and then the escalation in Cataclysm. Let's not indulge in revisionism here. It's just as disingenuous as the people who seriously claim Baine is only hated for his BFA role and not for being consistently trash for ten years.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-04-22 at 09:17 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #78
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    That's the thing right there. You're saying that a character isn't Horde unless they're out to spill Alliance blood. And if they're in the Horde but do good things then they must want to be Alliance slaves. If you can't see the inanity of that thought process I don't know what to tell you. Where was all this "Thrall wants the Horde to be the Alliance's slaves" shtick when he was in charge and trying to make peace. You know where, nowhere. Because it's a retarded, stupid headcanon that people constant regurgitate.
    No, what I’m saying is that the character isn’t Horde if they’re killing Horde on behalf of the Alliance. They’re free to want peace, but don’t work for the goddamn Alliance in order to do it. And don’t bring them into the Horde’s internal affairs.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    No, what I’m saying is that the character isn’t Horde if they’re killing Horde on behalf of the Alliance. They’re free to want peace, but don’t work for the goddamn Alliance in order to do it. And don’t bring them into the Horde’s internal affairs.
    So basically you're saying with the Horde civil war going on the peace faction can't do bupkiss against Sylvanas' faction because it would also benefit the Alliance? Think on that for a moment. It makes no sense.

    And where do you keep getting this "working for" the Alliance thing. This headcanon of yours is preventing you from seeing reality.

  20. #80
    What the fuck does the "Horde" even mean or stand for anyways? Nothing logically binds this group of races together other than being Anti-Alliance. They are a flimsy excuse of a faction. A joke. They should rebrand themselves as "Anti- Alliance" cuz that's all they got going for them. Without that they are nothing. The Alliance is their sole motivation in anything. And therefore they will always be used as a foil for the Alliance and nothing else. Because they have nothing else.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2019-04-22 at 09:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how they can't post as much because they keep getting banned, I'd say if anyone's spazzing out, it'd be them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    all weird edgelord neo-nazis in wow are blood elf rpers

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