Soon the Horde won't have much left... (Horde Branding Problem)

[Jastall]

The Horde will be on the backbench, barring possible appearances by the Zandalari and Calia for the Shadowlands and Green Jesus in a generic hero role. The rest will be Legion 2.0 in terms of focus on Alliance characters and themes under the thin veil of neutrality. Especially since the Horde cast will have been gutted again and our totem carriers and honor afficionados are even more worthless at fighting purple ghosts in space/the underworld than they are in their current capacity.

That depends. Both factions saw next to no action in WoD but we still ventured alongside rough counterparts of the Horde and Alliance to make up for it which might be the template used. Legion being Alliance-heavy does not necessarily means the Shadowlands will be, considering how much the place would matter to, at least, both Troll races and Forsaken for starters.

This is all theory of course. For all we know the next xpack is Sylvanas vs The World and Baine takes center stage as The World's last line of defense or some something. Not like we shouldn't expect the dumbest shit to happen at this point.

[Dagoth Ur]

At best I expect the new Warchief (or War Council if Blizzard goes this way or whatnot) to be busy putting the Horde back together and one or two Horde character accompanying us into the next expansion which is highly likely to be Shadowlands-related.

My pessimism aside, with Bwonsamdi, Vol'jin and potentially even Sylvanas, depending on what happens to her by the end of this expansion, we should have our roster filled in case of Shadowlands-esque expansion. Considering we haven't heard anything about Vol'jin so far in 8.2, maybe that arc will be what actually bridges the Horde's story into next expansion.

[Super Dickmann]

That depends. Both factions saw next to no action in WoD but we still ventured alongside rough counterparts of the Horde and Alliance to make up for it which might be the template used. Legion being Alliance-heavy does not necessarily means the Shadowlands will be, considering how much the place would matter to, at least, both Troll races and Forsaken for starters.

This is all theory of course. For all we know the next xpack is Sylvanas vs The World and Baine takes center stage as The World's last line of defense or some something. Not like we shouldn't expect the dumbest shit to happen at this point.

The one time that a Horde or Horde-themed character has gotten the last laugh and it wasn't at the expense of another Horde character was Cataclysm with Green Jesus. Past that both the Scourge and the Legion were defeated by heavily or explicitly Alliance-coded groups with the Horde being afterthoughts within them. Warlords is an odd exception as the factions were about equally as irrelevant, but the entire expansion was about exterminating a previous incarnation of the Horde when it was fully fleshed out. I'll admit though that that's to some degree a personal bugbear of mine. It's why I love the Mag'har's return and them being unchanged from the Iron Horde as much.

As for surprises, the telegraphing is pretty clear that it's either Void or Shadowlands. Though I wouldn't discount the Void expansion also being the Light one.

[Syegfryed]

the problem started when they tried to make the horde look like the martyr of diversity and representation agenda somehow, they start to pamper the elf/undead fanbase, cause they joined the tribal/honorable/shamanistic faction, but they want be edgy villains cause only what matter is kill alliance, and its totally fine change the whole faction to please then.

the way to resolve its a simple reboot, and pretend all the shit after middle mop never happened

[cparle87]

If 8.2 remains unchanged then the Horde is basically dead as far as I'm concerned.

The only hope for the faction at this point is to have all the leaders killed off. They're the ones dragging the Horde down,

The entire Horde cast needs to be rebuilt from the ground up without the baggage and Alliance sympathies present in 90% of the current Horde leadership.

Otherwise what's the point? Why play the fake Alliance when you can go play the real one and be closer to the boy king instead of his distant vassal?

Gotta love the mindless dualism here. Either you want to kill all the Alliance or you're the boy-king's vassals. No middle ground at all. Nope, none.

[Leodric]

"Toxic masculinity" is a meme term. It's a term that does't carry any weight outside of your regressive left social justice circle jerks.

See also, "muh patriarchy" and the "gender pay gap" myth.

But it's everything else than a meme term and does also hold value in WoW, and imo it's a nice refreshing theme put into WoW, and I can tell you that I am anything else than a "regressive leftie" or whatever terms people use nowdays for stuff like that.

Obviously people like to push it out of proportion, especially in this forum, but I don't think it's as important for Golden as people like to claim here. In my experience people who are so much against this term are usually anything else than masculin themselves IRL.

[Linkedblade]

No, I'm pretty sure it is a valid sociological term used in academic studies of male behavior. Not all male behavior, and not all forms of masculinity, thus the "toxic" modifier. You would have to argue against the substantial body of peer-reviewed evidence of material studying the anxieties of young men and how various forces, from media, to familiar, to societal exert pressure upon men to engage in hyper masculine contests, constantly prove their masculinity to other men, repress feelings of emotional vulnerability, and engage in dangerous or criminal activities.

As for your other terms, I don't see how you could refute the hundreds of years of human society where women held little to no power previous to the 20th century in almost all cultures, or the the irrefutable evidence that women on average receive less pay and less opportunity for increases in pay then men. Then again judging by the tone of your post it seems you fall into the general rabble of 4Chan or R/Pol so I can't say I'm surprised either.

Women didn't hold power for about as long as men didn't. Serfs didn't have rights, regardless of their genitals, from the medieval period. Then men with property got rights. Then men of age got rights. All within the course of the last 600 years. I know women gained suffrage quite recently, compared to men, but talking over the course of humanity it's statistically insignificant. But keep parroting that men and women don't have equal rights.

And in a universe where all of the species have childbearing females it doesn't quite make sense that they all have powerful women. Just about every race has a female racial leader. And in current events the races of azeroth have minimally survivable numbers.

[Super Dickmann]

Gotta love the mindless dualism here. Either you want to kill all the Alliance or you're the boy-king's vassals. No middle ground at all. Nope, none.

That is the actual dichotomy presented in-story. Either you are enlightened by Anduin, like Saurfang, already connected to him, like Baine, or have a history of self-hate of your own race and appeasement towards the other faction like Thrall or you're pure evil and the villain in your own story to be killed. Like Sylvanas and the Sunreavers are at the moment and Garrosh and the orcs were back in Mists. The options are either the Horde is proactive and aggressive or the Horde is irrelevant. Everything else is pure wishful thinking that has always been proven wrong. Legion was tailor-made with stories where noblesavages could confront the ones that were behind turning the orcs against the draenei and the greatest betrayer of their people and it doesn't happen.

[Jastall]

The one time that a Horde or Horde-themed character has gotten the last laugh and it wasn't at the expense of another Horde character was Cataclysm with Green Jesus. Past that both the Scourge and the Legion were defeated by heavily or explicitly Alliance-coded groups with the Horde being afterthoughts within them. Warlords is an odd exception as the factions were about equally as irrelevant, but the entire expansion was about exterminating a previous incarnation of the Horde when it was fully fleshed out. I'll admit though that that's to some degree a personal bugbear of mine. It's why I love the Mag'har's return and them being unchanged from the Iron Horde as much.

As for surprises, the telegraphing is pretty clear that it's either Void or Shadowlands. Though I wouldn't discount the Void expansion also being the Light one.

That's really just Wrath and Legion vs Cata, two examples against one, I don't think it's a solid trend. Plus while Wrath was Alliance-leaning I wouldn't say it was Alliance dominated, the only important group with heavy Alliance influences was the Argent Crusade, the DKs are as neutral as it gets, the Kirin Tor also at this time, and the Horde was represented by Garrosh and Sylvanas.

Blizzard may repeat their Legion mistake but I doubt it's an automatism, and you know what? I'll take an expansion where the Horde isn't that relevant over one where it is pruned, hanged and butchered like this one.

The telegraphing is there all right, but then again in a world where someone thought WoD was a good idea, take your expectations and assume something dumber will happen.

[steelballfc]

Don't worry. Golden will make sure all the toxic males (and females that aren't Jaina) become irrelevant or killed off.

i will forgive her if she killed all windrunner

[Aeula]

Gotta love the mindless dualism here. Either you want to kill all the Alliance or you're the boy-king's vassals. No middle ground at all. Nope, none.

No middle ground when most of the Horde leadership are complicit in killing other members of the Horde for the Alliance’s benefit.

I’ve always been of the belief that the faction war should always be present but I never wanted to go full genocide like Sylvanas did. Nor did I want to go full Alliance like the rest of the Horde is about to.

[Jshadowhunter]

As far as I'm seeing, the "rebels" are a bunch of hypocrites and the current status quo are prepared to do anything to survive. No matter how I look, whichever side wins, the Horde will lose.

[Super Dickmann]

That's really just Wrath and Legion vs Cata, two examples against one, I don't think it's a solid trend. Plus while Wrath was Alliance-leaning I wouldn't say it was Alliance dominated, the only important group with heavy Alliance influences was the Argent Crusade, the DKs are as neutral as it gets, the Kirin Tor also at this time, and the Horde was represented by Garrosh and Sylvanas.

Blizzard may repeat their Legion mistake but I doubt it's an automatism, and you know what? I'll take an expansion where the Horde isn't that relevant over one where it is pruned, hanged and butchered like this one.

The telegraphing is there all right, but then again in a world where someone thought WoD was a good idea, take your expectations and assume something dumber will happen.

I'd say that both BFA and Cata were demonstration of what they consider 'world characters' that all people should have fun working with like Jaina and Thrall, even amidst faction wars. Legion is an extrapolation of this where all the 'world characters' are extremely Alliance coded. Hell, WoD had us following along one of the WC2 cast in fighting the original betrayer of the orcish race and destroying the WC2 Horde. Noblesavagery has (luckily were it not for what was there instead) never had the center stage. Thrall as a person has, but not any organisation he was a part of. Even saving the world due to one's connection to it is outsourced to an Alliance-coded character like Magni. Assuming the Horde's irrelevance on the basis of its constantly shrinking cast and the irrelevance of its entire main roster, save Thrall at the end of this as well as what we've seen before is a pretty rational conclusion.

[Leodric]

As far as I'm seeing, the "rebels" are a bunch of hypocrites and the current status quo are prepared to do anything to survive. No matter how I look, whichever side wins, the Horde will lose.

But isn't everyone a hypocrite in that scenario, considering everyone involved at some point rebelled against their warchief?

[Kithelle]

Still will have all the extra goodies and best racials in the game

But being serious....so basically in your eyes because most of the obvious dark and evil is gone you think the Horde is dead? Maybe can convince the Blood Elves and Nightborne to go evil again

[Friendlyimmolation]

Still will have all the extra goodies and best racials in the game

But being serious....so basically in your eyes because most of the obvious dark and evil is gone you think the Horde is dead? Maybe can convince the Blood Elves and Nightborne to go evil again

Uh you realize for most classes alliance pulls ahead in racials? Shadowmeld is OP for M+ etc.

[cparle87]

No middle ground when most of the Horde leadership are complicit in killing other members of the Horde for the Alliance’s benefit.

I’ve always been of the belief that the faction war should always be present but I never wanted to go full genocide like Sylvanas did. Nor did I want to go full Alliance like the rest of the Horde is about to.

By that logic if Mussolini got fed up with Hitler's craziness and had him assassinated, that would make him an Allies "puppet" even if he continued his own country's war against the Allies because... WoW logic. Like I said, the posters don't make sense. Not wanting to genocide the Alliance does not mean you want to be subservient to them. THAT'S the duality I'm deriding.

[Jshadowhunter]

But isn't everyone a hypocrite in that scenario, considering everyone involved at some point rebelled against their warchief?

I would, but the problem is that Garrosh was hit with a blatant not-see stick so there was no reason for anybody to stick around.

[Themerlin]

I saw "(Horde Branding Problem)" and laughed.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally want to see new character development.

[Aeula]

By that logic if Mussolini got fed up with Hitler's craziness and had him assassinated, that would make him an Allies "puppet" even if he continued his own country's war against the Allies because... WoW logic. Like I said, the posters don't make sense. Not wanting to genocide the Alliance does not mean you want to be subservient to them. THAT'S the duality I'm deriding.

What makes you think the Horde will keep fighting or even exist after this? They’re killing Horde soldiers right now. Horde soldiers who are perfectly justified to be angry at the Alliance (Sunreavers at Jaina). To free someone who also killed Horde soldiers to aid the Alliance.

The Horde leaders are quite literally killing the Horde to help the Alliance. That’s not moderate. That’s subservience.