Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The bit about racial guilt and Durotar being chosen deliberately for its inhospitability, that it was pushed to its very limit and reliant on night elven handouts is in the Shattering and admitted by Thrall. The constant famines are alluded to in Heart of War and in Glory, relative to the richness of the lands around them. These Wrath-Cata era stories. In the Shattering, as @Hubbl3 says, Thrall says the above in plain text and other orcs note it as well.
    Do you see the great irony in idolizing Thrall, who laid down the framework for all future wars that the Orcs would have to wage if they wished to survive. His penitence and his desire to spread his penitence upon all Orcs for the sins of their fathers fundamentally created a power keg. The Orcs, the main demography of the Horde simply lack fertile lands to establish the agriculture and husbandry required to feed themselves. Therefore they are trapped by Thrall himself, by his racial guilt and the obsessive need to atone. It is one of the reasons why I am sympathetic to Garrosh, he fundamentally simply followed the only path Thrall left open; wage war upon the Night Elves to gain fertile lands, clean water and other natural resources.

  2. #122
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    30,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.
    Could've sworn I've played Horde for the majority of the past 14 years. And I still stick to it, Kor'kron, unlike Warsong, never felt like a brand of the Horde. Of course they were a group within the Horde but didn't call out as much as lets say, the actual pieces of the Horde which were the brands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.
    Well, Sylvanas has knowledge of the Horde's cultures, and still doesn't care or hold any love for it. At least Baine is attempting to salvage what can be done before it all rots away.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Could've sworn I've played Horde for the majority of the past 14 years. And I still stick to it, Kor'kron, unlike Warsong, never felt like a brand of the Horde. Of course they were a group within the Horde but didn't call out as much as lets say, the actual pieces of the Horde which were the brands.
    You worked with the Kor'kron and all their characters all throughout WOTLK, they were the Horde's counterpart to the 7th Legion, except they also appeared in Classic and BC, with a large role in the latter.

    Since MOP, the Horde has no special organizations to counter the 7th legion, we just get generic grunts instead and it sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, Sylvanas has knowledge of the Horde's cultures, and still doesn't care or hold any love for it. At least Baine is attempting to salvage what can be done before it all rots away.
    Baine doesn't either.

    He exiled the tauren who helped him reclaim Thunderbluff simply for defending against the alliance invading the barrens(and might I remind you, murdered an entire tauren tribe in cold blood).

    He also broke the oath to the Horde saying all members of the Horde have the right to retaliation.

    Baine is a massive asshole, he only got upset at Sylvanas because of Derek Proudmoore igniting his human obsession. He never gets upset when the Horde is hurt and he's never raised a finger against the Alliance.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.



    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.
    Your argument doesn't really hold water. So you're saying it's ok for Sylvanas to go "Val'kyr go raise this one, he's going to be one of us, and his free will is a sacred thing that we'll lay down our lives to preserve" to one undead and go "Val'kyr, raise this one, and when we're done we'll torture and brainwash him and force him to kill his own family"?

    If you raise a free-willed undead, then they're a forsaken. The fact that Sylvanas thinks she has the right to raise someone and say they're not, just a weapon, is in itself disturbing. Scratch one more thing off the shrinking list of things separating her from Arthas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    He also broke the oath to the Horde saying all members of the Horde have the right to retaliation.
    Source on this "oath"?

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Your argument doesn't really hold water. So you're saying it's ok for Sylvanas to go "Val'kyr go raise this one, he's going to be one of us, and his free will is a sacred thing that we'll lay down our lives to preserve" to one undead and go "Val'kyr, raise this one, and when we're done we'll torture and brainwash him and force him to kill his own family"?

    If you raise a free-willed undead, then they're a forsaken. The fact that Sylvanas thinks she has the right to raise someone and say they're not, just a weapon, is in itself disturbing. Scratch one more thing off the shrinking list of things separating her from Arthas.
    Then where's the ire about the abominations or Derek's friend who was sent to his death?

    Baine only cares because Derek is related to Jaina. As shown time and time again, Baine is an asshole who doesn't care about the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Source on this "oath"?
    Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde.


    Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde.

    Baine broke his oaths and betrayed the tauren for the sake of his Alliance boner.
    Last edited by Gann Stonespire; 2019-04-23 at 12:39 AM.

  6. #126
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Zuldazar
    Posts
    4,610
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Still, when we're talking about faction war, even a Warchief like that could do squat and would most likely look like a lunatic if there's virtually nothing to hook onto Alliance's side. I feel like both factions need their Anduins and Sylvanases, non caricature versions and in non leading positions that is, for this narrative to function properly.
    How about more believable characters? Anduin and Sylvanas before BFA weren't so realistic either but they have their charm, to be honest this is a problem of the writers who literally doesn't know what tone to go, they seem to want to go full comic superhero like the MCU but also being some deep culture criticism with Tolkien narrative and elements(hello alliance of the middle earth) with some lovecraftian elements but unfortunate you can't have all of this together or else it would look some silly abomination.

    To me the warcraft 3 theme will fit well with wow, you can have leaders acting like "superheroes" but still the world doesn't bend the knee so they can't win all the time, it's a fight to survival in an uncary and semi eldritch universe.
    Last edited by Maxrokur; 2019-04-24 at 09:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  7. #127
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Shadowlands
    Posts
    1,016
    Eh Blizzard have always had a problem reusing Factions/Groups they've created previously, the one we've seen the most literally is the Sunreavers.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    At least Lilian Voss thinks different about this:
    Citation needed
    Twas brillig

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Citation needed
    https://de.wowhead.com/news=290122/b...scene-spoilers
    We Forsaken are raised with free will. That's what separates us from the Scourge. Sylvanas Windrunner used to take pride in that distinction.

    But after all I have seen in this war, I must wonder if that still holds true.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Then where's the ire about the abominations or Derek's friend who was sent to his death?

    Baine only cares because Derek is related to Jaina. As shown time and time again, Baine is an asshole who doesn't care about the Horde.



    Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde.


    Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde.

    Baine broke his oaths and betrayed the tauren for the sake of his Alliance boner.
    Abominations weren't sentient from the getgo. There's a vast difference between taking a sentient individual and torturing and brainwashing him into being your slave; and sewing together a bunch of bodies, putting in a lobotomized brain, and the raising it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, THIS. I've tried making this point in other such threads. Free will, and the respect for it, is the one thing the Forsaken respect. Sylvanas doing this put her on the same level of Gul'dan and the blood curse, or Dar'khan enabling the invasion of Silvermoon. Violation of the fundamental of the race.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Abominations weren't sentient from the getgo. There's a vast difference between taking a sentient individual and torturing and brainwashing him into being your slave; and sewing together a bunch of bodies, putting in a lobotomized brain, and the raising it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, THIS. I've tried making this point in other such threads. Free will, and the respect for it, is the one thing the Forsaken respect. Sylvanas doing this put her on the same level of Gul'dan and the blood curse, or Dar'khan enabling the invasion of Silvermoon. Violation of the fundamental of the race.
    This is such a tiresome level of hyperbole. The Forsaken have never given the least bit of a fuck about the free will of someone who isn't Forsaken. Using the Forsaken model doesn't render you Forsaken. Derek was raised to serve an instrumental purpose not be part of Forsaken society. Their entire state exists because Sylvanas had people possessed to buff up her army and throw them at the dreadlords. They lobotomized humans in the Undercity since Vanilla and Sylvanas has canonically had the ability to summon ghouls, i.e enslaved mindless undead for ages. Darkshore has you see both skellies and geists and Sylvanas raises Horde dead that Baine is silent about at Lordaeron. In Andorhal the Forsaken raise the Alliance farmers as fodder to die, exploiting how in their rage state their minds are easy to manipulate and throw into the fray. We as player Death Knights routinely do worse and not only did Bwonsamdi just raise unwilling undead in the raid, but we promised him a small loan of a million unwilling souls for his assistance.

    Never you mind that Derek isn't even a mindslave, but a torture victim and thus a regular slave, something the Horde has practiced without stop since its formation.

    There's nothing about Derek that's worth the reaction that it receives. Its purely contrived nonsense to allow the Horde's offense be about what happens to a human related to Jaina rather than be about genocide or about the raising of their own in far more dubious circumstances.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is such a tiresome level of hyperbole. The Forsaken have never given the least bit of a fuck about the free will of someone who isn't Forsaken. Using the Forsaken model doesn't render you Forsaken. Derek was raised to serve an instrumental purpose not be part of Forsaken society. Their entire state exists because Sylvanas had people possessed to buff up her army and throw them at the dreadlords. They lobotomized humans in the Undercity since Vanilla and Sylvanas has canonically had the ability to summon ghouls, i.e enslaved mindless undead for ages. Darkshore has you see both skellies and geists and Sylvanas raises Horde dead that Baine is silent about at Lordaeron. In Andorhal the Forsaken raise the Alliance farmers as fodder to die, exploiting how in their rage state their minds are easy to manipulate and throw into the fray. We as player Death Knights routinely do worse and not only did Bwonsamdi just raise unwilling undead in the raid, but we promised him a small loan of a million unwilling souls for his assistance.

    Never you mind that Derek isn't even a mindslave, but a torture victim and thus a regular slave, something the Horde has practiced without stop since its formation.

    There's nothing about Derek that's worth the reaction that it receives. Its purely contrived nonsense to allow the Horde's offense be about what happens to a human related to Jaina rather than be about genocide or about the raising of their own in far more dubious circumstances.
    Idk.. we have to work with what they throw at us, forsaken lore is a mess anyways.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is such a tiresome level of hyperbole. The Forsaken have never given the least bit of a fuck about the free will of someone who isn't Forsaken. Using the Forsaken model doesn't render you Forsaken. Derek was raised to serve an instrumental purpose not be part of Forsaken society. Their entire state exists because Sylvanas had people possessed to buff up her army and throw them at the dreadlords. They lobotomized humans in the Undercity since Vanilla and Sylvanas has canonically had the ability to summon ghouls, i.e enslaved mindless undead for ages. Darkshore has you see both skellies and geists and Sylvanas raises Horde dead that Baine is silent about at Lordaeron. In Andorhal the Forsaken raise the Alliance farmers as fodder to die, exploiting how in their rage state their minds are easy to manipulate and throw into the fray. We as player Death Knights routinely do worse and not only did Bwonsamdi just raise unwilling undead in the raid, but we promised him a small loan of a million unwilling souls for his assistance.

    Never you mind that Derek isn't even a mindslave, but a torture victim and thus a regular slave, something the Horde has practiced without stop since its formation.

    There's nothing about Derek that's worth the reaction that it receives. Its purely contrived nonsense to allow the Horde's offense be about what happens to a human related to Jaina rather than be about genocide or about the raising of their own in far more dubious circumstances.
    Once again your arguement boils down to "He's not a Forsaken and he doesn't have the rights of one despite being one... because Sylvanas says so."

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Once again your arguement boils down to "He's not a Forsaken and he doesn't have the rights of one despite being one... because Sylvanas says so."
    No, my argument is that the Horde have shown they don't care about the sanctity of the soul, they don't care about slavery and the Horde not only practises stealing unwilling souls on a far more colossal scale but so do the Forsaken. The Derek thing is overemotional piffle meant to wring a reaction but storywise it's nonsense.

    Though even your strawman is unintentionally right. Being Forsaken is a political belonging and Sylvanas, as the leader thereof can decide who is to be part of it and who isn't. Derek emphatically isn't.

    @Hellspawn

    Not near as much before as it is now after BTS. The race was totally eviscerated within the span of one book and BFA has a separate, schizophrenic treatment of them somewhere between the BTS version and the prior one.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-04-23 at 10:10 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #135
    Thank you.
    Twas brillig

  16. #136
    Honestly, I'd actually see a regression of Horde branding. I'm actually hopeful that with this split storytelling that Blizz is attempting right now that it's more of a prototype of choosing sides within the confines of the story moreso than under the banner of our factions. Meaning - while we're still going to be a Horde player next expansion, the story will make us feel like we're a Blood Elf first, or an Orc first. I feel that this issue plagues the Alliance FAR more than the Horde. I'd rather Elves and Draenei not don the Alliance blue and bring their own flavor to the game.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    How about more believable characters? Anduin and Sylvanas before BFA weren't so realistic either but they have their charm, to be honest this is a problem of the writers who literally doesn't know what tone to go, they seem to want to go full comic superhero like the MCU but also being some deep culture criticism with Tolkien narrative and elements(hello alliance of the middle earth) with some lovecraftian elements but unfortunate you can't have all of this together or else it would look some silly abomination.

    To me the warcraft 3 theme will fit well with wow, you can have leaders acting like "superheroes" but still the world doesn't bend the knee so they can win everything and and most of the time, it's a fight to survival in an uncary and semi eldritch universe.
    I agree with you. Personally never was a fan of Warcraft following in steps of MCU as far as characters and power levels are concerned. Though Horde doesn't have that problem as much as Alliance, so I was never that bothered by it .

    After Legion, I was really ready for the whole of Azeroth collectively take it down a notch and we go back to more mundane thing. Absorbing Artifact weapons was as good of an excuse as any.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •