Teldrassil remains the 10 ton elephant in the room.

[Thage]

Playing devils advocate...

This is the biggest casualty of trying to tell an epic story in an MMO, you don;t get a broader perspective of the whole thing. If this was a single player game written from one or three of the main characters perspective you'd get so much more lore so much more detail about whats going on, but you play a brain dead minion with no or hardly any implications to the main plot. So you miss so much stuff that could be going on while 90% of the game is just you.

With how WoW is set out you can follow the main narrative but lack the fine details. This is why the Burning of Teledrassil was told better in a book (with the collectors edition) than it was in game.

This isn't really a constraint of MMORPGs. FFXIV brings in big shakeups all the time. This is more a problem with how Blizzard handles storytelling. It's taken almost a decade for any more meaningful storytelling to take place in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms after the Cataclysm revamp, and even then it's just another series of shock-and-awe set pieces that are set aside once it's done. Even the Burning of Teldrassil had so many plot holes it's amazing the tree didn't fall through the world before Sylvanas could torch it, plot holes which were acknowledged and blatantly brushed aside with, "That's not the story we want to tell."

WoW's problems with storytelling stem entirely from Blizzard's own willful incompetence, a level of blatant disregard for continuity that even Marvel and DC would shy back from.

[Moonrage]

Malfurion shatters the foundation of Thunderbluff and tens of thousands of Tauren plummet to their deaths, while other night elves hunt down injured stragglers

This is an idea I can get behind.

[Dagoth Ur]

Vengeance doesn't go with the lesson they're trying to teach.

I mean let's be real, can you even think of a possible scenario to end all this nonsense without someone ending up looking like a lunatic? As is Blizzard's tradition, it'll probably be nelves in the end, once we sacrifice Sylvie on scapegoat altar and we realize we're stronger together to go fight off purple ghosts in space.

Truth is, the moment they torched Teldrassil they turned this whole big dramatic narrative with which they intended to woo us in ridiculous tragicomedy. I just don't get how an adult person thought starting expansion with Horde doing something unforgivable, only for Alliance leadership doing all kind of mental gymnastics exactly to justify forgiving them is a good idea.

As Horde player, what's getting me the most though is that they irreparably ruined like 3/4 of our cast coming next expacs. Only character who I can think of that possibly comes out better from all this is Rokhan, who before now wasn't even really a character and shockingly wasn't present in prepatch. All for cheap morality lesson they lack skill to teach in the first place.

[Destinas]

I think the major thing is that Blizzard likes to start expansions off with a big shock, only to kind of fizzle out after that. Theramore, Nethergarde, Hillsbrad, Teldrassil, and Lordaeron were all places that were destroyed to show off how extreme the expansion would be. Places like Gilneas, Stromgarde, and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms somewhat fit into this as well, though some were during or later in an expansion.

Problem is, this isn't A Song of Ice and Fire. The general writing rule of "don't be afraid to be mean to your characters" doesn't work as well in a video game as it does in other linear narrative mediums. In books, TV, movies, comics, and other media there is no element of control for the viewers - we're simply reactionary beings. With video games, we're usually told that we have the ability to change things, save the world, complete the journey, etc. In an MMO, that is taken a step further, where we exist with other people, therefore the story isn't entirely about us. That leaves the story to fill in other characters and places, like Teldrassil. In the end, we had no control over Teldrassil. It wasn't the Horde champion's decision to torch it, that landed all on Sylvanas. It wasn't within the Alliance champion's ability to save it. No one really won.

The writers, nearly every expansion, have wanted to portray how dire the situation is by "shocking" players right at the gate. Doesn't work. It just pisses off people, because no one can truly win. Having a character bring up [tragic thing] over and over again is at times understandable, but most of the time annoying. Instead of resolving issues slowly and naturally, they ignore the issues entirely or end it abruptly. They start these "shocking" events, but they don't really have the steam to continue making it a driving force in the story.

Teldrassil fits into this because the most we've gotten is the occasional "this is for Teldrassil!" quote from some characters, a bit of development (that went nowhere) for Tyrande, Sira, Elune, etc, and it all culminated in a Warfront that seemed half-finished with a story that didn't make much sense. The writing to make Night Elf Dark Rangers and Forsaken Wardens was forced ("Elune abandoned us while we burned from the Forsaken, so we're mad at all of you to join the Forsaken that burned us in the first place!") while some characters barely showed up (Malfurion) and other characters are seemingly in every single major event in the expansion (Nathanos).

Blizzard has a hard time truly being unpredictable, which is somewhat out of their control with datamining, and somewhat within their control ("You'll never guess what's next!" as we all guess it in unison correctly). In the end, instead of being mean to their characters, Blizzard can be mean to players by making them bored, angry, or helpless with their writing.

In the end, Teldrassil was a vessel for the rest of the expansion. Despite the fact that nothing was truly accomplished, Lordaeron and the Darkshore Warfront will be seen in Blizzard's eyes as proper revenge, with the added cherry of the Battle of Dazar'alor. That put the ball in Sylvanas' court - and then they had her promptly take the ball to Nazjatar. Similar to Theramore, where the Purge of Dalaran was supposed to be Jaina's "revenge" - meanwhile, it's still a driving factor for Jaina (and the Alliance) to continue to fight, with no resolution and no natural downfall. It just pops up like a Whack-a-Mole whenever they have Jaina speak for more than 2 seconds.

Teldrassil's done, and by the end of the expansion one of two things will happen:

1.) The faction war will be over, and all the actions prior to this will be forgotten.
2.) The faction war will continue, and all the actions prior to this will be rarely mentioned, stockpiled as ammo for another day (where the opportunity will be wasted).

[Nirn]

All will be one within great Anduin. Ia! Ia!

This brought a smile to my face. Good one.

[Mask]

Thank you for telling me what i want. I didnt realize i wanted the Alliance to commit more genocidal acts, but you've made it clear for me.

You're welcome.

[Kithelle]

How can I get over it when in every patch there are at least several characters telegraphing to us there is going to be repercussions where there isn't any?

Do you expect any less from the Devs? I mean they spent the whole early expansion telling us that Sylvanas was #MorallyGrey when time and time again she proved she is nothing but evil.

Horde blindly following her when she was obviously evil, the few who dared stand up against her were vilified, and when she is finally toppled everyone other than her are forgiven.

It's more lazy BS from probably one of the laziest expansions to date...more shitty slanted writing in a expansion full of it. Of course there will be no real fucking justice, if there was Sylvanas would be dead.

But gotta keep everyone's favorite waifu alive or they would rage that their favorite pair is no longer with them.

[TheRevenantHero]

Or, counter: Both sides can be good? And the evil can be something they work together against?

It doesn't have to be one side is evil. Alliance has always been lawful good. Let Horde take chaotic good, as it should be.

Counter to that point as well: Why can't the Alliance be evil for once? Why is the Alliance perfect in every way? Hell even when they do terrible things it's apparently justified. The fact that there will never be an Alliance villain in WoW makes the narrative boring as fuck.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

And yet all of your examples are Horde's reaction to Alliance, Stormwind in particular, declaring war on them. So great argument in Stormwind's defense you got here. Simply top notch. The last sentence of yours is just lol-worthy in light of that.

Not really - I was specifically talking about the Alliances reaction to Sylvanas, but good try.

[Moonrage]

Counter to that point as well: Why can't the Alliance be evil for once? Why is the Alliance perfect in every way? Hell even when they do terrible things it's apparently justified. The fact that there will never be an Alliance villain in WoW makes the narrative boring as fuck.

There were Alliance villains, Staghelm allied himself with Ragnaros and Archbishop Benedictus was the twilight prophet of the twilight's hammer cult.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I think the example gets skewed when both nations are effectively pre-emptively defending themselves cause one neither side trusts teh other to leave well enough alone. Do remember that Stormwind has basically played a part in assaulting every horde nation... EVERY HORDE NATION.... because they didn't like some OTHER party within it. Off to go deal with the orcs? They have a side trip to nearly wipe out the dark spear. Getting Back at Garrosh for fucking up some night elves? Instead of spearheading a path to Org they aim at Mulgore.
Garrosh does some dastardly deed? Time to go totally hitler on Dalaran and purge the place! Try and hold Thrall hostage to force Garrosh to back down? Sink some goblins to the depths because they're nearby....

Sylvanas was doing some shady shit... no one knew what said shady shit was... but she was existing and out in the wilds. 7th Legion goes in and tries to wipe forsaken fleet.

Goblins find some new unknown substance that can be used for... things (research not yet conclusive) so SI:7 goes in and starts doing their work on goblins (again) because they exist and are doing things!

yeah at this point the alliance has shown they are unwilling or utterly unable to leave well enough alone so it IS inevitable that they will resume their typical antics of fucking with people they don't agree with because they exist. Therefore it seems either party can make a solid argument that they are preparing to defend themselves. That is until Sylvanas went and escalated on Teldrassil like it was on teh Kelvin scale instead of celsius.



apparently dead diplomats, sabotaged/undermind region defenses, civilian deaths, etc only seem to matter in the plot when they were influenced by the power of human potential.


Yes, some bias really DOES need to be addressed.


edit:

I want to note I don't imply Sylvanas had good intentions. I will often point out that her intentions and plans aren't fully known and to act against them solely based on "it's sylvanas GET THEM" is not a point for 'good morality' because it's still the same preemptive defense before proving one needs to defend themselves.

Sorry, preemptive defense in this case is fine. At what point do you have to stand idly by as someone amasses weapons against you? In Civilization style games, if you amass armies close to the borders of your neighbors they will call you out on it, and it causes diplomatic penalties if you don't soon move them, resulting in war. Your whole argument hinges on the idea that a preemptive attack against a nation that has been at war with you since its inception and before is ridiculous, but its simply not. It would be different if the HvA conflictssssssssssss had never happened and the Alliance (or Stormwind) attacked a nation out of nowhere they had previously been on good terms with.

The start of your post implies the Horde isn't unified under one banner ... but they are. The Tauren in Mulgore aren't neutral and don't get a magical pass from hostilities. Furthermore, that whole point undermines your other point of the Alliance being bad for preemptive actions: then you go on to list the ways the Alliance has acted in reaction to Horde attacks ... that doesn't make any sense. You are shaming the Alliance for doing ANYTHING at this point.

[Soulwind]

In the end, instead of being mean to their characters, Blizzard can be mean to players by making them bored, angry, or helpless with their writing.

I agree with your whole post and especially with that line.

They often tell us that our passionate reactions to their writing means it's working. That players arguing for or against Sylvanas prove that there is a complex morality behind it all. But it takes a lot of wishful thinking and an extremely superficial read of what people are saying in their arguments to reach such conclusions.

Nowadays people aren't discussing the lore but the writing.

For instance, I could say that Sylvanas suddenly burning down Teldrassil in a fit of rage goes against what her character has been since Warcraft 3.

Is that a pro-Alliance statement? Not really, it's a pro-hire-a-better-writer-who-understands-the-source-material statement. But Blizzard would proudly say that a thread about that would be the community reacting to the faction war just like they wanted.

There's an aura of arrogance to all of this. I can't see the faction war ending in any satisfactory way, which is what everyone predicted the minute it was announced. And yet I fully expect Blizzard to blame the players one way or another.

Imagine having Magni or Khadgar tell the player that we shouldn't have pursued that war. Or the titan soul dying because we wasted her power on our siege weapons.

It wouldn't just be them saying that the Horde didn't learn their lesson, it'd be them saying we didn't learn the lessons from Warcraft 3, WotLK, Cataclysm, Pandaria and Legion. They wouldn't think twice before saying something like "Warcraft is about heroes coming together against evil, faction conflict only weakens us" during the next expansion announcement.

But whatever is next, you can be sure they'll say it's going back to the roots of Warcraft. It's what they did when they brought back the warlords. It's what they did when they brought back the Burning Legion. And it's what they did when they brought back humans vs orcs. Their whole strategy for the last three expansions has been to exploit nostalgia and they don't understand why it's not enough.

[OIS]

Pretty much. The two faction leaders were being peaceful (non-leaders not so much with the horde going around murdering civilian goblins in Silithus and all). It was an uneasy peace, but they were at least cooperating with each other.

Then the stupid horde had to go and let Calia be at the Gathering despite having the ability to undeniably know when something is a bad idea, reigniting the war.

Wasn't the first chapter of that book mentioning Sylvanas' plans for taking Stormwind? It's not like she bombed the tree because of any of these reasons you named here.

[Alex86el]

Get over it, you're not getting any vengeance, you never were.

But the Nightelves now have......THE NIGHT WARRIOR!

That sounds almost as cool and scary as Phantom Duck or something.

I bet the night warrior will bring vengeance. lol.

[Cobman]

So just #rememberTeldrassil and move on.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

I call it a good start. Now we gotta torch the other three elf bases.

[rogueMatthias]

Or, counter: Both sides can be good? And the evil can be something they work together against?
It doesn't have to be one side is evil. Alliance has always been lawful good. Let Horde take chaotic good, as it should be.

Counter to that point as well: Why can't the Alliance be evil for once? Why is the Alliance perfect in every way? Hell even when they do terrible things it's apparently justified. The fact that there will never be an Alliance villain in WoW makes the narrative boring as fuck.

Honestly there's no reason for either side to be "Good" or "Bad". That's just because we're used to Blizzards Saturday morning cartoon writing.

In a world with limited resources, many wildly different cultures, great costs of power, and internal conflictions, you can have war with genuine motivations. Both sides can have their own good bad and inner conflictions (without resorting to coups each time). Alliance were far more interesting when you had all the clans at war, nobles infighting (and being manipulated) and half their problems in Elywyn and Westfall were caused by their own greed. Orcs and Nightelves would clash in Kalimdor fighting over the resources they needed to survive and their different understanding and treatment of the land.

I always quite liked Varian, but it made a turning point where each faction was more or less represented by its one "hero" which has eventually led to the state we have now. There's no reason we shouldn't have a GOT style affair with tens of dozens of characters storylines all interwoven.

[Benedictu]

The Torching of Teldrassil was just an overblown cinematic campaign to build hype at the beginning of the Xpac and drive sales. After that, Blizz, the Horde, and most of the Alliance had no use for the storyline and turned their attention to grinding out rep.

[Destinas]

I agree with your whole post and especially with that line.

They often tell us that our passionate reactions to their writing means it's working. That players arguing for or against Sylvanas prove that there is a complex morality behind it all. But it takes a lot of wishful thinking and an extremely superficial read of what people are saying in their arguments to reach such conclusions.

Nowadays people aren't discussing the lore but the writing.

For instance, I could say that Sylvanas suddenly burning down Teldrassil in a fit of rage goes against what her character has been since Warcraft 3.

Is that a pro-Alliance statement? Not really, it's a pro-hire-a-better-writer-who-understands-the-source-material statement. But Blizzard would proudly say that a thread about that would be the community reacting to the faction war just like they wanted.

There's an aura of arrogance to all of this. I can't see the faction war ending in any satisfactory way, which is what everyone predicted the minute it was announced. And yet I fully expect Blizzard to blame the players one way or another.

Imagine having Magni or Khadgar tell the player that we shouldn't have pursued that war. Or the titan soul dying because we wasted her power on our siege weapons.

It wouldn't just be them saying that the Horde didn't learn their lesson, it'd be them saying we didn't learn the lessons from Warcraft 3, WotLK, Cataclysm, Pandaria and Legion. They wouldn't think twice before saying something like "Warcraft is about heroes coming together against evil, faction conflict only weakens us" during the next expansion announcement.

But whatever is next, you can be sure they'll say it's going back to the roots of Warcraft. It's what they did when they brought back the warlords. It's what they did when they brought back the Burning Legion. And it's what they did when they brought back humans vs orcs. Their whole strategy for the last three expansions has been to exploit nostalgia and they don't understand why it's not enough.

You bring up a lot of really good points - despite how the story is told, we're the ones blamed for Blizzard's writing in the end.

Sure, Khadgar tells us he won't participate in the faction war, of course done to give other characters room to have the spotlight. Magni has Azeroth give us a necklace because we're special and we totally won't use Azerite to do anything other than heal the planet. However, quite a few of the other quests in BfA have us fighting beside our faction, using Azerite weapons to besiege cities, kill soldiers (and civilians), and drive the war narrative forward. Should we want to see the story, we have to equally help Magni and help our faction - but the two goals conflict with one another, so the blame falls on our shoulders for "choosing" to misuse Azerite.

Despite the fact that it is World of Warcraft, we're constantly told and shown how war only leads to more war. The idea of Warcraft returning to it's roots, for real, doesn't have any bearing on the story as it's told anymore, which Blizzard doesn't seem to understand based on their writing. They constantly tell us how the war story is integral to the roots of the game - but the roots of the game didn't involve Old Gods/Void Lords, and the Burning Legion started out as the puppetmasters behind the scenes. Now, every time we focus on the other faction, we're told there are larger threats, when we never had an illusion of choice to focus on what's important or not in the first place.

I don't feel like the faction war should dissipate entirely. Things like PvP are driven by it, and there are two factions that exist separately for a reason. However, I'd personally love it if the writers didn't put the blame on the player characters for "not focusing on what's important" anymore. Lore-wise, sure, our characters wouldn't have killed every major bad guy that has ever existed, but we've fought in most wars nonetheless. We know the dangers of the Void, Legion, Scourge, etc.

Players were the first ones that called out to Blizz that we shouldn't really be fighting each other when we just defeated the Burning Legion, yet we were told that it would be super important and essential to the story - as if the Old Gods couldn't have any other venue to fight us other than to manipulate us to fight each other. Yet, as you stated, we're the ones that somehow didn't see the bigger picture when we play as our characters. It's frustrating.

[mickybrighteyes]

Sorry, preemptive defense in this case is fine. At what point do you have to stand idly by as someone amasses weapons against you? In Civilization style games, if you amass armies close to the borders of your neighbors they will call you out on it, and it causes diplomatic penalties if you don't soon move them, resulting in war. Your whole argument hinges on the idea that a preemptive attack against a nation that has been at war with you since its inception and before is ridiculous, but its simply not. It would be different if the HvA conflictssssssssssss had never happened and the Alliance (or Stormwind) attacked a nation out of nowhere they had previously been on good terms with.

Except this example takes place AFTER the 'preemptive defenders' already successfully ambushed and curtailed the military building nation's leader during a truce period and the only reason they have any knowledge of any research on said nukes is the hostile espionage activity they're taking against the nation.... all of which IS known. Making the 'self defense' angle really poor when their own actions would typically be outright provocation that would precipitate into an open conflict normally.


And yes the horde is supposedly unified under the leader (except when story demands drama like in MoP and BFA apparently), but opening a new front on a nation who's leader has typically worked in your favor still isn't smart, especially when it involves trekking even further inland... but logistic issues in this settings war story are typically ignored anyways.