Teldrassil remains the 10 ton elephant in the room.

[ravenmoon]

Honestly there's no reason for either side to be "Good" or "Bad". That's just because we're used to Blizzards Saturday morning cartoon writing.

In a world with limited resources, many wildly different cultures, great costs of power, and internal conflictions, you can have war with genuine motivations. Both sides can have their own good bad and inner conflictions (without resorting to coups each time). Alliance were far more interesting when you had all the clans at war, nobles infighting (and being manipulated) and half their problems in Elywyn and Westfall were caused by their own greed. Orcs and Nightelves would clash in Kalimdor fighting over the resources they needed to survive and their different understanding and treatment of the land.

I always quite liked Varian, but it made a turning point where each faction was more or less represented by its one "hero" which has eventually led to the state we have now. There's no reason we shouldn't have a GOT style affair with tens of dozens of characters storylines all interwoven.

Both factions dont need to be evil, or o e evil and one good, both can be good. Not perfect, but good.. I'm fine with s race bei g perfect if that is their racial characteristic, but you'd have to be a Tolkein to pull it off...however warcraft has deeply diverse races that are broad and rich enough to have both those involved with the factions actually be good guys but occasionally clash with each other through disagreements or mis understanding, or every once in a while manipulated into fighting each other when they should be getting together.

They dont have to be good friends ds, they could be sippdistant with each other healthy respect, but friendly amongst themselves with a delicious degree of complexity and nuance as different races would have different relationship or several degrees of relationship from bordering on hostile to early bff's.

There is no need to make 1 faction evil, but it is acceptable to do so, but if you do, I think you should have ru with it from the start similar to how SWTOr did, and not spin it like they did for orcs in wc3, and continue with it only to reverse gears not once, (which may have been interesting) but twice which makes it look suspect

[Mehrunes]

Not really - I was specifically talking about the Alliances reaction to Sylvanas, but good try.

And what you talked about in regards Sylvanas was that the Alliance was merely reacting to the Horde's acts against it in the past, hence it's OK. So me pointing out that the exact same acts you used as examples are actually Horde's reaction to Alliance starting a war (which they did because Varian got salty the Horde was able to reconquer Undercity from Varimathras before he could capture it himself) is indeed a good try. Because it perfectly showcased how you in your valiant defense of the Alliance you tried to put the cart in front of the horse.

Sorry, preemptive defense in this case is fine. At what point do you have to stand idly by as someone amasses weapons against you? In Civilization style games, if you amass armies close to the borders of your neighbors they will call you out on it, and it causes diplomatic penalties if you don't soon move them, resulting in war. Your whole argument hinges on the idea that a preemptive attack against a nation that has been at war with you since its inception and before is ridiculous, but its simply not. It would be different if the HvA conflictssssssssssss had never happened and the Alliance (or Stormwind) attacked a nation out of nowhere they had previously been on good terms with.

In what alternate universe does the Horde mining crap in Silithus, the corner of the continent that doesn't border any Alliance territory constitute the Horde amassing weapons or armies close to Alliance borders, exactly?

[Hellspawn]

In what alternate universe does the Horde mining crap in Silithus, the corner of the continent that doesn't border any Alliance territory constitute the Horde amassing weapons or armies close to Alliance borders, exactly?

They mined there to build weapons with it, and it was pretty obvious that Sylvanas wanted to fight the Alliance with these weapons.

[mickybrighteyes]

They mined there to build weapons with it, and it was pretty obvious that Sylvanas wanted to fight the Alliance with these weapons.

I think it would be fairly obvious that hostilities would continue since the forsaken fleet was sunk prior, the goblin mining operations were harassed and THEN further ultimatums were issued... this all happening before the High King managed to fuck things up further with a clearly worded deal that was NOT offering peace turned into a botched coup that was immediately put down.

Despite Sylvanas being uber evil and clearly plotting shit... the alliance has basically given the horde any and all reasons to assume hostility if normal diplomatic rules were being followed.

[ravenmoon]

I think Sylvanas' behaviour in 7.3.5 and BFA feelsl iek a massive betrayal to the players because at the start of Legion, she was so heroic helping out Varian, and it seemed finally a piece of the ranger loved so much in WC3 was finally returning.

When the alliance interpreted Sylvanas' choice to retreat andn ot back them as betrayal, horde players weren't cross because it was a necessary thing otherwise no one would have survived, but by leaving hten, the alliance was forced into an earlier retreat, allowing them live to fight on.

Horde viewed themselves as heroes but vexed by the alliance stupidity (as they view it, something the writers intend) and alliance viewed the horde as treacherous and cowards, lacking honour.. they wouldn't like Sylvanas, but hse'd be a hero to the horde.

So when she goes and stats murdering civilians and innocents, well, full on evil sylvie comes out, and while the horde should have been rejoicing in finally gaining Kalimdor, the players were not, because they don't like to see themselves or their faction as murderers even if this is the reality of war. They want fantasy in many ways, with illusions of reality.. but not actual reality.. we all do, that's why we play.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I think Sylvanas' behaviour in 7.3.5 and BFA feelsl iek a massive betrayal to the players because at the start of Legion, she was so heroic helping out Varian, and it seemed finally a piece of the ranger loved so much in WC3 was finally returning.

When the alliance interpreted Sylvanas' choice to retreat andn ot back them as betrayal, horde players weren't cross because it was a necessary thing otherwise no one would have survived, but by leaving hten, the alliance was forced into an earlier retreat, allowing them live to fight on.

Horde viewed themselves as heroes but vexed by the alliance stupidity (as they view it, something the writers intend) and alliance viewed the horde as treacherous and cowards, lacking honour.. they wouldn't like Sylvanas, but hse'd be a hero to the horde.

So when she goes and stats murdering civilians and innocents, well, full on evil sylvie comes out, and while the horde should have been rejoicing in finally gaining Kalimdor, the players were not, because they don't like to see themselves or their faction as murderers even if this is the reality of war. They want fantasy in many ways, with illusions of reality.. but not actual reality.. we all do, that's why we play.

As I said before, Sylvanas was handed the idiot evil ball because Blizzard writers are unable to drive a story any other way than “poor sad heroes fighting against a big meanie”

Even if they try to flip it at the end and have Sylvanas somehow “doing what needed to be done “ it will ring hollow because they jumped so hard with her burning Teld in attempt to have “mature” (And by mature I mean warhammer knockoff without the balls to commit”) they’ve seriously put a splotch on the lore that is never going to recover, unless it’s retconned which will just make it worse because it will be the writers acknowledging they screwed up again.


If Sylvanas dies it’s going to be bad, a death of another warcraft 3 character sacrificed to be the driving force of a bad retelling of a story that didn’t need to be retold, blizzard makes it so that the entire blame is at her feet and everyone sings and hugs.

If she sacrifices herself and is redeemed it’s another rushed and hacked story , taking Sylvanas from legion Sylvanas, to totalitarian “no books lol” Sylvanas, to “garrosh is an amateur “ Sylvanas back to legion Sylvanas.

If she lives, well that’s probably because the writers decide that they can’t think of a way to keep the war narrative that always comes back without her, they’ll use her to bridge the next xpac and then they stick her back in undercity or something.

But yea tldr the chances of people being satisfied are slim, I didn’t even go over the qualms of the “true Horde “ fans because for the most part the’re too hilarious to tldr and I don’t have time to go over them in depth.

[Mehrunes]

They mined there to build weapons with it, and it was pretty obvious that Sylvanas wanted to fight the Alliance with these weapons.

Except the Alliance didn't know squat about the Horde's plans for Azerite when they started attacking. They knew extremely little about Azerite itself at the time. Nor did they know anything about the Horde preparing for war.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Nobody even realized it was Azeroth's blood before SI went on the goblin hunt, nor did the Alliance knew jackshit about what sort of shit can be done with Azerite.

[ravenmoon]

As I said before, Sylvanas was handed the idiot evil ball because Blizzard writers are unable to drive a story any other way than “poor sad heroes fighting against a big meanie”

Even if they try to flip it at the end and have Sylvanas somehow “doing what needed to be done “ it will ring hollow because they jumped so hard with her burning Teld in attempt to have “mature” (And by mature I mean warhammer knockoff without the balls to commit”) they’ve seriously put a splotch on the lore that is never going to recover, unless it’s retconned which will just make it worse because it will be the writers acknowledging they screwed up again.


If Sylvanas dies it’s going to be bad, a death of another warcraft 3 character sacrificed to be the driving force of a bad retelling of a story that didn’t need to be retold, blizzard makes it so that the entire blame is at her feet and everyone sings and hugs.

If she sacrifices herself and is redeemed it’s another rushed and hacked story , taking Sylvanas from legion Sylvanas, to totalitarian “no books lol” Sylvanas, to “garrosh is an amateur “ Sylvanas back to legion Sylvanas.

If she lives, well that’s probably because the writers decide that they can’t think of a way to keep the war narrative that always comes back without her, they’ll use her to bridge the next xpac and then they stick her back in undercity or something.

But yea tldr the chances of people being satisfied are slim, I didn’t even go over the qualms of the “true Horde “ fans because for the most part the’re too hilarious to tldr and I don’t have time to go over them in depth.

I wonder if they'll try something like this:

Possible Outcome That Could Salvage Sylvanas and Give Some Night Elf Reparations
Chances are Sylvanas would realize she is being played, all along, manipulated by smarter more intelligent and malevolent beings that used her fears against her.

She would then do something very intelligent and heroic, like possibly trap Azshara or N’zoth in Xal’atath saving us all. She would lose the warchief position for her actions especially the war, but everyone would realise the whole war of thorns and horde war was because of manipulation of Azshara and/or N’zoth, but despite the great harm Sylvanas did, she is also the reason the world survives far greater calamity.

Made more poignant if she ends up also being the reason Tyrande and the night elf people survive Azshara (or Tyrnade gets to finish of Azshara or beat her in a future encounter, blizzard woudl have to play this right, cos people would hate Tyrande agian having to be rescued like a damsel in distress, so it would have to be somehting Sylvanas does that gives Tyrande the edge over Azshara or allows Tyrande to be able to turn the tide and together they finish the Queen) and also the reason night elves possibly get somethign amazing like Zin’azshari and/or naga elf sub-race joining them in addition to their kalimdor lands and the borken isles including some working relationship with the nightborne despite being in opposite facitons. [this would be part of Sylvanas making amends]

Sylvanas will then now be a free agent. Calia would lead the forsaken, Thrall the horde and Sylvanas would be a major character roaming the world rediscovering her original self, and be a hero working to do the best she can as she becomes her old self in the curse of undeath. Maybe in that there would be role for Delaryn and Sira tood, and we have a cadre of elven hunter undead babes meting out justice in the world

She might get a new model too to reflect this.

It's possible for some sort of salvage via this root

[Friendlyimmolation]

I wonder if they'll try something like this:



It's possible for some sort of salvage via this root

That sounds far, far too unlikely, I mean one can hope but these writers seem dead set on the obvious, easy low hanging fruit when it comes to narrative paths. One can always hope though.

[Nirn]

Honestly there's no reason for either side to be "Good" or "Bad". That's just because we're used to Blizzards Saturday morning cartoon writing.

In a world with limited resources, many wildly different cultures, great costs of power, and internal conflictions, you can have war with genuine motivations. Both sides can have their own good bad and inner conflictions (without resorting to coups each time). Alliance were far more interesting when you had all the clans at war, nobles infighting (and being manipulated) and half their problems in Elywyn and Westfall were caused by their own greed. Orcs and Nightelves would clash in Kalimdor fighting over the resources they needed to survive and their different understanding and treatment of the land.

Precisely.

It would be far more interesting if the conflict was based on some similarities to real life conflicts; the need for fertile lands, resources and clean water. It could be done, but Blizzard always took the Saturday morning cartoon villain route in the end.

[Theodarzna]

Lorethemar quoting Taran Zhu. That to stop a war all we must do is walk away. Well. That is quite ironic coming from him after how his people and faction he belongs to (After making it clear he is proud to be part of the Horde still) committed Genocide.

It is also funny because it was a genocide that was literally frame by frame just like what happened to his own Kingdom.

[Nirn]

It is also funny because it was a genocide that was literally frame by frame just like what happened to his own Kingdom.

And?

Just because one suffers a tragedy in the form of ethnic cleansing or genocide does not automatically means that those people will suddenly become peace worshiping hippies. They may take a different conclusion from the suffering that happened to them. I would give you real life examples but this is forbidden if I understand the forum rules correctly.

[mysticx]

Nobody even realized it was Azeroth's blood before SI went on the goblin hunt, nor did the Alliance knew jackshit about what sort of shit can be done with Azerite.

It’s just that in a cold war situation with two superpowers, if either one of them suddenly gets really excited about a new, thusfar unknown resource and diverts lots of resources to amassing it, you can bet anything the other side will try to see what’s going on, and disrupt the resource gathering if they can, that’s one of the few BfA plot points that made sense to me actually.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

It’s just that in a cold war situation with two superpowers, if either one of them suddenly gets really excited about a new, thusfar unknown resource and diverts lots of resources to amassing it, you can bet anything the other side will try to see what’s going on, and disrupt the resource gathering if they can, that’s one of the few BfA plot points that made sense to me actually.

Compared with the actual stuff, totally makes sense. But still is not like you can try and analyze it, or try to get your share without killing the other people's workers. At least not if you are in the government and trying not to push for a war, like we are told Anduin was.

[Wyrt]

Here's the thing about Teldrassil: Blizzard doesn't fucking care. It was 100% used just to start a war between humans and the Horde. Blizzard only cares about humans on Alliance side, they couldn't give less of a shit about night elves.

[Hellspawn]

Here's the thing about Teldrassil: Blizzard doesn't fucking care. It was 100% used just to start a war between humans and the Horde. Blizzard only cares about humans on Alliance side, they couldn't give less of a shit about night elves.

We got Darkshore, Nightwarrior and Jaina says that Night Elfs will get their revenge in 8.2. Also Shandris finally has a voice actor. So there is hope.

[Bellamas]

Why the have never hired professional, and award winning, scriptwriters is beyond me. They have hundreds of millions to spend on crazy orc statues and azeroth choppers, but not enough to pay someone who can write dialogue that doesn't make you cringe, and wish you weren't human so you couldn't unwillingly empathize with their shame?

[TheFirstOnes]

I'm gonna play Sargeras' advocate and say this...

Teldrassil wasn't a casualty, and Sylvanas did more damage to the Horde this expansion than to the Alliance. Hell, Gul'dan did worse. He tore a dimensional rift between our World, and Argus during the Nighthold. Ow...

[Nathasil]

We got Darkshore, Nightwarrior and Jaina says that Night Elfs will get their revenge in 8.2. Also Shandris finally has a voice actor. So there is hope.

Wouldn't you agree that the events of Tyrande's Ascension and the entire prelude of the Warfront are more important than Saurfang putting off his pauldrons or Saurfang having a chat about NOTHING with Anduin? Yet, the former only got rushed out in-game events+cinematics...the latter got full blown prerendered videos.

I think it is fairly easy to tell what Blizzard cares about and what not.

Teldrassil is the most important event of this "faction war". It is the ONE event that stands out. And all that came from it were two books that are hardly connected with the game (out right different in some details of the narrative!), a time-limited one-time questline that was worse than any of the Cata-Revamped level-quests, a Tyrande-Questline that ended with Tyrande's grand revenge against.....a nobody Valkyr who's name NOBODY even remembers, a warfront that is so incredibly boring to play that even Island-Expeditions are great compared to it (without ANY new assets, by the way...all reused shit. Unlike Stromgarde) and finally: The great result status, which is that Tyrande is one of the most powerful individuals on Azeroth (which she arguably was before already) and does exactly NOTHING, is nowhere to be found and will most certainly not even APPEAR in the entire Azshara patch once.

Well done, Blizzard. Well done.