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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Of course you don't make as much money with Patreon only than with Patreon + Youtube. Still the equation more negativity = more money applies.
    Then that is solely up to the person that donating. If they enjoy that kind of content then good for them. If they want some good old Blizzard shaft sucking, they can donate to someone like Talesin and Evitel. If that's what they like, good for them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    How someone makes their money is flat out irrelevant at the end of the day. Focus on making your own money and not how other people do it.

    The fact of the matter is a lot of content creators for WoW have been critical of this expansion. I highly doubt they all had a secret meeting and decided "yeah let's be critical for dem monies".
    Yeah, pretty much.

    People are critical of the expansion because it's worth being critical. Imagine, if people just sat there and said "yes Blizzard, this is amazing, I love Warfronts, best content ever. I love the Azerite acquisition system at launch. Please give us more RNG" then we'd still have that same shit. Criticism makes the game better

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Simple fact of the matter is this.

    When some of the most well know people who loved WoW say this is the worst expansion ever or are being critical it says a damn lot.

    However when even Crendor who is normally known for his neutrality is critical then you've done something wrong.

    However. Form your own opinion of the game. Simple as that.
    Wowcrendor has always been critical of the game. He has been for 10 years.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Wowcrendor has always been critical of the game. He has been for 10 years.
    Disagree. He's been very neutral about the game.

    He made humour out of the extremes with things like "the go guy" and whatnot but he's always been neutral. Now he's pretty much critical.

  4. #244
    High Overlord Gulantik's Avatar
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    The community has been overly cynical since MoP at the very latest, and MoP and Legion were both good expansions. I generally just don't listen to the toxic fest that is the WoW community anymore, least of all youtubers.

  5. #245
    If you had seen the video in its entirety you would know what he was talking about. For those who haven't seen it or just choose not to for some reason, I will explain.

    His issue isn't the fact that the Heartforge is bad (it could be better, as everything else in everything ever can be), but that the essences, for the most part, are either too powerful or are balanced from one extreme to another in terms of their usefulness for certain classes in a certain role (in Preach's case, DPS role).

    He showed off one of the essences that basically let him keep 70-80% uptime in Incarnation as a Boomkin. His point was: if this is like this for every DPS spec, how is Blizzard going to balance encounters based on this fact? Will they balance certain phases to require potions or Bloodlust? Or will they leave it? Or, in the most likely of cases, nerf that azerite trait.

    Another example was an essence that had a chance to refund resources when spent... which is useless for fire and frost mages since they have no resource that isn't mana (Paladins get HP refund, Moonkin gets Astral Power, etc etc).

    Bear in mind we are only half way into the Xpac and we're already getting really powerful shit.
    Last edited by Guyviroth; 2019-04-20 at 12:49 PM.

  6. #246
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    I don't think he's really that cynical in this case honestly. And also his video is clearly geared towards giving feedback to the devs. They need to know that if shit goes live this way, some specs will be absolutely broken. I think it's a cool system, but some of the shit is way too powerful.

  7. #247
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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    After the shit blizzard has done recently, how could a sane person not be cynical about the game?
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    This was shown at BlizzCon. Blizzard is a community, not a company. Activision makes games for the Blizzard community.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Alodi View Post
    After the shit blizzard has done recently, how could a sane person not be cynical about the game?
    Exactly. Very hard to be hyped or excited when the name "Blizzard" pops up these days.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    His issue isn't the fact that the Heartforge is bad (it could be better, as everything else in everything ever can be), but that the essences, for the most part, are either too powerful or are balanced from one extreme to another in terms of their usefulness for certain classes in a certain role (in Preach's case, DPS role).(...)
    Another issue - one that I don't think he mentioned in the video - is that normally we could disregard all of that as "this is PTR, Blizzard will balance it". However, we have seen what happened to the Azerite system, it went live with minimal changes, required significant hotfixes early on, bandain fix with extra ring and a big rework in 8.2. Hard to be optimistic about balance when such mistakes happen within a single expansion.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-04-20 at 01:52 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    The problem with open Internet discussion is that subjective value propositions are often treated as solutions (often as easy solutions to multifaceted problems). As you say above - if the majority doesn't have a problem, but only a minority perceives it, is it then a problem that is applicable to everyone or a problem that each and everyone should evaluate subjectively?

    These are the types of questions game devs (and other product developers) have to think about - and while the solution seems to be (judging by forum opinion) easy, it's not always that clear, if you have wider perspective.

    Personally (since I'm not a WoW dev) I can evaluate things from my perspective and then discuss from that viewpoint (because I like discussions). I try to be civil when I encounter differing opinions.
    No, obviously in cases of very narrow effect, the majority shouldn't care at all. But in other cases, such as the one described earlier about The Division 2 with how loot levels became completely unintuitive, or in the more broad case of the over-use of MTX and monetization at the expense of content and gameplay(such as in WoW), they absolutely should.

    The problem is that when they can neither recognize or understand the problem, it's MUCH easier to dismiss it as simple rambling of a random forum poster than to give the suggestion credence, and maybe even look into it themselves. Pursuing their own immediate fun in the short term outweighs the potential loss of fun in the future. That and procrastination is a powerful barrier to overcome. Boiled Frog effect.

    But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that these issue always carry such gravity. Most times it really is just a salty forum poster angry that his/her class got nerfed by a couple of percentage points at a level they probably don't even play at. And that's fair to point out when it happens. But it's NOT fair to summarily dismiss all forum posts because of this, especially not if it's a post made by someone as heavily invested in the game as a popular streamer/youtuber. Granted, they might have ulterior motives of making money, but they're still going to be much more well-informed than the salty-boi mentioned above.

    Bad enough other fans and forum-goers do it, but when the actual game devs start doing it too...especially the CM's who's fucking JOB it is to sift through such posts to find the valuable feedback.....that's a real problem.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-04-20 at 02:26 PM.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  11. #251
    Can't say I've actually ever put much stock into any of these individuals thought's and views, in fact about the only ones I've ever watched were generally about certain things ( like the videos on the original beta patches). That said, it seems that even those that don't watch these videos often have views that align with them, and if that's the case and you are Blizzard, you really should be looking at whatever it is.

    Frankly the issues to me with WoW lately, and frankly has been the issue with it since WoD, is that they have gotten stuck in this systems mode. Everything must be a system. Whether it's WQ's, Professions, instanced content, or classes, they want to throw a system on top of it. I'm not really sure why building classes as they should be isn't a thing. I don't really get the idea of half building classes just to throw one or more systems on top of it to make it right.

    My buddy and I have talked about this a bunch over the years, and really it was the issue with WoD, but later expansions have had the same feel to it. All of these expansions feel like you have a group of people sitting in individual rooms working on whatever system they want to be in the next expansion, then at the last minute they try and slap them all together to fit and work. It's like there is no large scale plan going in, no one to take all of these ideas and early on develop them so that they fit together.

    You think about all of the systems that are in BfA, and if you look at them alone none of them look or sound too much like bad ideas for content. However, when you start putting them all together they step all over one another and half strip the usefulness from another system. It leaves far too much feeling mandatory but also very very shallow.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Disagree. He's been very neutral about the game.

    He made humour out of the extremes with things like "the go guy" and whatnot but he's always been neutral. Now he's pretty much critical.
    hes still alive ? i guess youtube algotyrhm dont like him cause i didnt see any of his video in years now.

  13. #253
    The game keeps moving further and further away from a rpg and more and more into a slot machine facebook time sink hybrid.

    The amount of time you have to grind trivial content really isnt acceptable to access the harder parts of the game.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    I don't think he's really that cynical in this case honestly. And also his video is clearly geared towards giving feedback to the devs. They need to know that if shit goes live this way, some specs will be absolutely broken. I think it's a cool system, but some of the shit is way too powerful.
    his problem is hes feedback is completly usless.

    he is only trying to appease top 5% and screw as much as possible average players.

    people like his are good for companies from PR point of view but meaningless when making decisions concerning wide audience

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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    The game keeps moving further and further away from a rpg and more and more into a slot machine facebook time sink hybrid.

    The amount of time you have to grind trivial content really isnt acceptable to access the harder parts of the game.
    did it occured to you that they do because people like this style of gameplay ?

    instead nerding out for hours they log in play for 45-60 minutes a day and log out .

    why do you htink mobas and battleroyales are so popular ? because they are what i call "plug and play games"

    nobody wants to invest their lives into games anymore - nobody but addicts and no lifers.

  15. #255
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    his problem is hes feedback is completly usless.

    he is only trying to appease top 5% and screw as much as possible average players.

    people like his are good for companies from PR point of view but meaningless when making decisions concerning wide audience

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    did it occured to you that they do because people like this style of gameplay ?

    instead nerding out for hours they log in play for 45-60 minutes a day and log out .

    why do you htink mobas and battleroyales are so popular ? because they are what i call "plug and play games"

    nobody wants to invest their lives into games anymore - nobody but addicts and no lifers.
    Did you actually watch the video? What he said it in has nothing to do with the top 5%. It will affect everyone who plays the game.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEaterofSouls View Post
    "This is the worst expansion ever. If you dont agree with me you're stupid." this is the attitude that drives me away from the game.
    Because it is the worst expansion ever, it's not an opinion, it's the fact, just like you can't have an opinion about the distance between two cities, because it's the measured distance

  17. #257
    they are because they understand deep ingame problems

  18. #258
    For the game to remain a titan (no pun intended) in the gaming industry, and to dominate the MMO genre, it needed to move away from the traditional RPG aspects.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's the problem whit a 15 year old game. If all you do is take away one simple thing and hand back another simple thing, it gets dull. The people asking for more complexity are largely asking for it because by now we don't need more simple mechanics. We already mastered that back in vanilla and TBC.

    This isn't a new game, it doesn't need to be tailored to new players!

    So adding more complex mechanics and abilities to the game is generally a fairly good direction to go. But for whatever reason Blizzard keeps trying to focus on this ambiguous group of non-existent new players that would supposedly be so stupid that they couldn't figure out how to watch a Youtube video explaining whatever they didn't understand.

    The other, more cynical, explanation is that Blizzard has to keep the game dumbed down because that's the target audience that are still playing the game. People who are too dim to look past what's immediately in front of them and need overly-simplistic systems in order to avoid being overwhelmed. I'm not saying that's everyone who plays WoW, but you know those players exist. Why Blizzard would cater to them should be obvious, however: Lowest Common Denominator.

    So of course people like Preach, and those with more than 2 brain cells to rub together, get cynical when Blizzard keeps churning out weaksauce that a 5-year-old with crayons could figure out.
    That doesn't make any sense -any game, even one as old as WoW, should be seeking to expand its playerbase, not looking to apppease it's existing one. I hope you don't run any businesses...

    The azerite essence system, even in its current iteration, is probably one of the most complex systems WoW has had in it's lifetime, but because it isn't a complete revamp of classes with a PoE style skill tree for each spec (midway through an expansion mind you), people get mad. Give me a break - WoW has always been a casual game and will remain a casual game. That's the source of its success - not catering to mythic raiders (which is all it does these days).
    Last edited by infinitemeridian; 2019-04-20 at 02:52 PM.

  20. #260
    Cynicism doesn't just randomly pop up. There's a long, slow burn that leads up to it.
    You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as we are. You're not to think you are smarter than we are. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are. You're not to think you know more than we do. You're not to think you are more important than we are. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone cares about you. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

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