Is Preach And The Community Becoming Overly Cynical About The Game?

[KaPe]

His issue isn't the fact that the Heartforge is bad (it could be better, as everything else in everything ever can be), but that the essences, for the most part, are either too powerful or are balanced from one extreme to another in terms of their usefulness for certain classes in a certain role (in Preach's case, DPS role).(...)

Another issue - one that I don't think he mentioned in the video - is that normally we could disregard all of that as "this is PTR, Blizzard will balance it". However, we have seen what happened to the Azerite system, it went live with minimal changes, required significant hotfixes early on, bandain fix with extra ring and a big rework in 8.2. Hard to be optimistic about balance when such mistakes happen within a single expansion.

[SirCowdog]

The problem with open Internet discussion is that subjective value propositions are often treated as solutions (often as easy solutions to multifaceted problems). As you say above - if the majority doesn't have a problem, but only a minority perceives it, is it then a problem that is applicable to everyone or a problem that each and everyone should evaluate subjectively?

These are the types of questions game devs (and other product developers) have to think about - and while the solution seems to be (judging by forum opinion) easy, it's not always that clear, if you have wider perspective.

Personally (since I'm not a WoW dev) I can evaluate things from my perspective and then discuss from that viewpoint (because I like discussions). I try to be civil when I encounter differing opinions.

No, obviously in cases of very narrow effect, the majority shouldn't care at all. But in other cases, such as the one described earlier about The Division 2 with how loot levels became completely unintuitive, or in the more broad case of the over-use of MTX and monetization at the expense of content and gameplay(such as in WoW), they absolutely should.

The problem is that when they can neither recognize or understand the problem, it's MUCH easier to dismiss it as simple rambling of a random forum poster than to give the suggestion credence, and maybe even look into it themselves. Pursuing their own immediate fun in the short term outweighs the potential loss of fun in the future. That and procrastination is a powerful barrier to overcome. Boiled Frog effect.

But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that these issue always carry such gravity. Most times it really is just a salty forum poster angry that his/her class got nerfed by a couple of percentage points at a level they probably don't even play at. And that's fair to point out when it happens. But it's NOT fair to summarily dismiss all forum posts because of this, especially not if it's a post made by someone as heavily invested in the game as a popular streamer/youtuber. Granted, they might have ulterior motives of making money, but they're still going to be much more well-informed than the salty-boi mentioned above.

Bad enough other fans and forum-goers do it, but when the actual game devs start doing it too...especially the CM's who's fucking JOB it is to sift through such posts to find the valuable feedback.....that's a real problem.

[Armourboy]

Can't say I've actually ever put much stock into any of these individuals thought's and views, in fact about the only ones I've ever watched were generally about certain things ( like the videos on the original beta patches). That said, it seems that even those that don't watch these videos often have views that align with them, and if that's the case and you are Blizzard, you really should be looking at whatever it is.

Frankly the issues to me with WoW lately, and frankly has been the issue with it since WoD, is that they have gotten stuck in this systems mode. Everything must be a system. Whether it's WQ's, Professions, instanced content, or classes, they want to throw a system on top of it. I'm not really sure why building classes as they should be isn't a thing. I don't really get the idea of half building classes just to throw one or more systems on top of it to make it right.

My buddy and I have talked about this a bunch over the years, and really it was the issue with WoD, but later expansions have had the same feel to it. All of these expansions feel like you have a group of people sitting in individual rooms working on whatever system they want to be in the next expansion, then at the last minute they try and slap them all together to fit and work. It's like there is no large scale plan going in, no one to take all of these ideas and early on develop them so that they fit together.

You think about all of the systems that are in BfA, and if you look at them alone none of them look or sound too much like bad ideas for content. However, when you start putting them all together they step all over one another and half strip the usefulness from another system. It leaves far too much feeling mandatory but also very very shallow.

[kamuimac]

Disagree. He's been very neutral about the game.

He made humour out of the extremes with things like "the go guy" and whatnot but he's always been neutral. Now he's pretty much critical.

hes still alive ? i guess youtube algotyrhm dont like him cause i didnt see any of his video in years now.

[Has lost its way]

The game keeps moving further and further away from a rpg and more and more into a slot machine facebook time sink hybrid.

The amount of time you have to grind trivial content really isnt acceptable to access the harder parts of the game.

[kamuimac]

I don't think he's really that cynical in this case honestly. And also his video is clearly geared towards giving feedback to the devs. They need to know that if shit goes live this way, some specs will be absolutely broken. I think it's a cool system, but some of the shit is way too powerful.

his problem is hes feedback is completly usless.

he is only trying to appease top 5% and screw as much as possible average players.

people like his are good for companies from PR point of view but meaningless when making decisions concerning wide audience

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The game keeps moving further and further away from a rpg and more and more into a slot machine facebook time sink hybrid.

The amount of time you have to grind trivial content really isnt acceptable to access the harder parts of the game.

did it occured to you that they do because people like this style of gameplay ?

instead nerding out for hours they log in play for 45-60 minutes a day and log out .

why do you htink mobas and battleroyales are so popular ? because they are what i call "plug and play games"

nobody wants to invest their lives into games anymore - nobody but addicts and no lifers.

[Poppincaps]

his problem is hes feedback is completly usless.

he is only trying to appease top 5% and screw as much as possible average players.

people like his are good for companies from PR point of view but meaningless when making decisions concerning wide audience

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did it occured to you that they do because people like this style of gameplay ?

instead nerding out for hours they log in play for 45-60 minutes a day and log out .

why do you htink mobas and battleroyales are so popular ? because they are what i call "plug and play games"

nobody wants to invest their lives into games anymore - nobody but addicts and no lifers.

Did you actually watch the video? What he said it in has nothing to do with the top 5%. It will affect everyone who plays the game.

[Chillside]

"This is the worst expansion ever. If you dont agree with me you're stupid." this is the attitude that drives me away from the game.

Because it is the worst expansion ever, it's not an opinion, it's the fact, just like you can't have an opinion about the distance between two cities, because it's the measured distance

[kappalol]

they are because they understand deep ingame problems

[MechaCThun]

For the game to remain a titan (no pun intended) in the gaming industry, and to dominate the MMO genre, it needed to move away from the traditional RPG aspects.

[infinitemeridian]

That's the problem whit a 15 year old game. If all you do is take away one simple thing and hand back another simple thing, it gets dull. The people asking for more complexity are largely asking for it because by now we don't need more simple mechanics. We already mastered that back in vanilla and TBC.

This isn't a new game, it doesn't need to be tailored to new players!

So adding more complex mechanics and abilities to the game is generally a fairly good direction to go. But for whatever reason Blizzard keeps trying to focus on this ambiguous group of non-existent new players that would supposedly be so stupid that they couldn't figure out how to watch a Youtube video explaining whatever they didn't understand.

The other, more cynical, explanation is that Blizzard has to keep the game dumbed down because that's the target audience that are still playing the game. People who are too dim to look past what's immediately in front of them and need overly-simplistic systems in order to avoid being overwhelmed. I'm not saying that's everyone who plays WoW, but you know those players exist. Why Blizzard would cater to them should be obvious, however: Lowest Common Denominator.

So of course people like Preach, and those with more than 2 brain cells to rub together, get cynical when Blizzard keeps churning out weaksauce that a 5-year-old with crayons could figure out.

That doesn't make any sense -any game, even one as old as WoW, should be seeking to expand its playerbase, not looking to apppease it's existing one. I hope you don't run any businesses...

The azerite essence system, even in its current iteration, is probably one of the most complex systems WoW has had in it's lifetime, but because it isn't a complete revamp of classes with a PoE style skill tree for each spec (midway through an expansion mind you), people get mad. Give me a break - WoW has always been a casual game and will remain a casual game. That's the source of its success - not catering to mythic raiders (which is all it does these days).

[GrinningMan]

Cynicism doesn't just randomly pop up. There's a long, slow burn that leads up to it.

[cparle87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=767StGhEO-E

Preach recently made a video getting in-depth with the new Heartforge system. After watching it, it got me thinking. How can someone be so nitpicky and cynical about literally everything regarding the mechanics of the game? I try very hard to understand the intricacies of my characters, but I just can't match preach or other mythic raiders feelings on how classes play in BFA. I can't look this deeply into them or care this much. I do agree they're worse than legion, but they dont feel as terrible as the forums make them out to be. I love Preaches content, but his attitude recently regarding new content turns me off. It's a real shame. The community in general has gotten so cynical as well. You can't go 5 seconds without people ranting about the smallest thing.

What do you guys think of preach and the community in general recently? Has anyone else noticed a shift in attitude towards WoW? Do you miss Preaches more chilled out critiques and videos? Maybe all of this has to do with him losing ghost? Not having two opinions bouncing off eachother? I'm not sure. Does the negativity turn you off of the game?

The short answer is yes. Many WoW players are like people in a relationship that has gone sour. They don't have the willpower to break it off, so they talk shit about their partner (WoW) to anyone who will listen.

[kamuimac]

So again. He's not monetising his videos yes?

Glad we got that sorted. I have absolutely no interest in Preach but a lot of the current streamers/youtubers have been very critical of BFA.

I highly doubt they all suddenly decided to start "hating" the game for clicks/money.

you have no way to know how bad demonetization is for him . just because few youtubers turned it into a meme doesnt mean its true anymore.

like with anything people adapt . just like he most likely adapted. and many others.

[SirCowdog]

That doesn't make any sense -any game, even one as old as WoW, should be seeking to expand its playerbase, not looking to apppease it's existing one. I hope you don't run any businesses...

The azerite essence system, even in its current iteration, is probably one of the most complex systems WoW has had in it's lifetime, but because it isn't a complete revamp of classes with a PoE style skill tree for each spec (midway through an expansion mind you), people get mad. Give me a break - WoW has always been a casual game and will remain a casual game. That's the source of its success - not catering to mythic raiders (which is all it does these days).

You don't have to be a mythic raider in order to appreciate how overly simplistic the game has gotten in recent years. There's very little besides mythic raiding or very high-end M+ that requires any real thought at all. Even Blizzard themselves said they wanted to tailor the gearing system to be so simple that "You just equip the item with the highest ilvl without having to reference an addon or 3rd party site".

They've gone out of their way to dumb things down further and further. And yes, I do believe that's in order to attract new players. It's just that they're making the mistake of thinking that every new player is a glue-eating imbecile. And while there are people like that out there in the gaming world, I don't believe that's the type of player that's generally going to be interesting in an RPG game in the first place, nor do I think WoW needs to specifically warp 99% of the game around that level of stupidity or inexperience in order to get new players.

It's funny that you mention Path of Exile, which has an increasing number of players despite being one of the most complex RPGs on the market. That would seem to support my point of view. But you'll note that I also allowed that Blizzard is targeting the lowest common denominator on purpose. If I was going to be ruthlessly honest, I'd say it's targeting players who are less likely to be intelligent about both their playing and spending habits. People who are more likely to not think before purchasing any number of extra cash shop or paid services WoW has to offer.

But that's just me being salty because work sucked last night and I'm cranky, I guess. :/ Or maybe it's entirely possible that current day ActiBlizz is a coldly calculating and manipulative corporation that will take every possible opportunity to cash in. Which do you think is actually more likely? (That's a trick question. They're both true. XD )

[Has lost its way]

his problem is hes feedback is completly usless.

he is only trying to appease top 5% and screw as much as possible average players.

people like his are good for companies from PR point of view but meaningless when making decisions concerning wide audience

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did it occured to you that they do because people like this style of gameplay ?

instead nerding out for hours they log in play for 45-60 minutes a day and log out .

why do you htink mobas and battleroyales are so popular ? because they are what i call "plug and play games"

nobody wants to invest their lives into games anymore - nobody but addicts and no lifers.

Few points here... one the current changes force grinding more then most versions of wow with the need to do boring and trivial content to level the heart to mythic raid.

The second why would I care about them trying to chase a new crowd they will never ever keep? I am simply pointing out they pushed out the crowd that made them a success to start with and now are reaping what they sowed.

[Justintime328]

He's still butthurt as fuck he didn't get to go visit Blizzard.

Exactly this, fucking exploiter.

[Kazlofski]

You don't have to be a mythic raider in order to appreciate how overly simplistic the game has gotten in recent years. There's very little besides mythic raiding or very high-end M+ that requires any real thought at all. Even Blizzard themselves said they wanted to tailor the gearing system to be so simple that "You just equip the item with the highest ilvl without having to reference an addon or 3rd party site".

They've gone out of their way to dumb things down further and further. And yes, I do believe that's in order to attract new players. It's just that they're making the mistake of thinking that every new player is a glue-eating imbecile. And while there are people like that out there in the gaming world, I don't believe that's the type of player that's generally going to be interesting in an RPG game in the first place, nor do I think WoW needs to specifically warp 99% of the game around that level of stupidity or inexperience in order to get new players.

It's funny that you mention Path of Exile, which has an increasing number of players despite being one of the most complex RPGs on the market. That would seem to support my point of view. But you'll note that I also allowed that Blizzard is targeting the lowest common denominator on purpose. If I was going to be ruthlessly honest, I'd say it's targeting players who are less likely to be intelligent about both their playing and spending habits. People who are more likely to not think before purchasing any number of extra cash shop or paid services WoW has to offer.

But that's just me being salty because work sucked last night and I'm cranky, I guess. :/ Or maybe it's entirely possible that current day ActiBlizz is a coldly calculating and manipulative corporation that will take every possible opportunity to cash in. Which do you think is actually more likely? (That's a trick question. They're both true. XD )

That's a good point, nowadays it's not "conspiracy theories" at all when discussing shady manipulative behavior from ActiBlizz so could very well be.

It seems to drive away the intelligent people away and turns decent folk to zombies that never communicate in chat because everything is so easy and instant to get, almost no communication and cooperation required so almost everyone seems so grumpy and when you initiate a talk in chat in a group, you sometimes get "stfu" as a response...

I wish we had pre wotlk lfd communities, was way nicer to play the game than nowadays. (or at least OpenRaid times in Cata...)

[mojusk]

why are people hating on preach? there are far worse youtubers out there, than him.
sure his vids aint all sunshine and rainbows. but they are, for the most part, constructive criticism.
he gives feedback and ideas how to improve the upcoming azerite system, which is what blizz encourages us to do.
you can agree or disagree with him, you may even think the system is all fine and dandy as it is, in its current form on ptr. thats fair, its your opinion.
but i doubt that blizz devs think its perfect right now, thats why its still on ptr. to be tested, changed and tuned.

[Jademist]

No. The cynicism is entirely justified by long, bitter experience.

Why not just move on, then?