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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathwirt View Post
    I mean how hard can their job be when they're always wearing pajamas? ;D ;D ;D
    Comment and profile pic matched up, bravo
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  2. #42
    I'm more than willing to take heat on this for being ignorant, but why are nurses, of all professions, working 12-hour shifts. I understand a lot of people would like to work in big chunks for 3 days and get the rest of the week off. I understand it's nice for patients to see the same faces all day and that it's easier for the hospital to schedule longer shifts.

    However, what about fatigue and burn-out on a life-saving job? Is it humane to expect people to work 12 hours (or more) in a row? Is it safe to the nurse and to patients? I don't have the answers, just the questions.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Or is paid by big pharma. If you want to cut medical costs there are several options. Cut the cost of drugs and medical equipment by negotiating prices down, cut the cost of admin or cut the cost of medical personnel.
    Or it could be simple class hatred.
    The problem is as it stands now, hospitals under staff their nurses daily. If you've ever been to a hospital where there wasn't understaffed nursing then you've been to a hospital that is ran BY nurses FOR nurses. Even here in Cali where we are the ONLY state that has minimum ratios for nurses and patients in an acute setting, hospitals still only allow the bare minimum to be on staff for that time. They will send people home if they are "overstaffed". Same goes for nursing homes with the CNA if they are "overstaffed".

    Quote Originally Posted by Benedictu View Post
    I'm more than willing to take heat on this for being ignorant, but why are nurses, of all professions, working 12-hour shifts. I understand a lot of people would like to work in big chunks for 3 days and get the rest of the week off. I understand it's nice for patients to see the same faces all day and that it's easier for the hospital to schedule longer shifts.

    However, what about fatigue and burn-out on a life-saving job? Is it humane to expect people to work 12 hours (or more) in a row? Is it safe to the nurse and to patients? I don't have the answers, just the questions.
    You should read my previous follow up comment that was pretty long on page 2 and you'll see what I said about that.

  4. #44
    Ah yes, nurses, those notorious layabouts who have a lot of free time.

    Fucking lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Comment and profile pic matched up, bravo
    Would it ruin the effect if I said the cat lost an eye and is actually just yawning?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevertrap View Post
    Nurses do work long hours.

    Lately I've been losing a lot of respect for the nursing field, particularly because of new nurses and nursing students. I find that a lot of women enter this field because they think it's the quickest way to easy money and a respectable job. Like you only need a two year degree to become a registered nurse. Because of this, you rarely encounter someone who is actually passionate about nursing and helping the patients, and you hear their constant whining about either the coursework or the work itself. It's highly annoying and I really wish the requirements to be a registered nurse were increased. Really need to weed out the people who don't deserve to be there, and are only in it purely for the money grab.
    Social workers have earned far more respect from me for that reason.

    Have met/worked with a lot of great nurses but noticed the same, with friends and relatives who went into nursing it was always about the money. A couple of them weren't even very good with people, luckily working in a helping field softened that a bit in one of them.

    One friend from WoW, who is an RN/BSN and getting his nurse practitioner degree, told me very seriously that he got into a major argument with his husband for making a joke about killing his black patients. He was upset because he thought his husband would know he was clearly joking but apparently the joke went on far too long and it was definitely not clear to the husband in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    Cutting shifts from 12 hours for the majority of nurses across an entire state would be a logistical nightmare. Many nurses (from my experience, most) who work 8 hour shifts hate it and would prefer to work 10's or 12's, and those who work 12's wouldn't give that away. You know what would be of more benefit to nurses?

    Ensure proper staffing, in general but specifically so that we all can actually get the rest breaks we should (by law) be afforded (hint, this is a huge problem and is likely under exaggerated by nurses)

    Reduce the nurse to patient ratios of most departments

    Prosecute those patients who assault/threaten/injure/kill healthcare professionals (not just nurses)

    Ensure proper staffing of support staff in medical facilities-e.g. security, housekeeping, CNAs, transporters, etc...

    the list goes on. I submit, having worked 8, 10, 12 hour shifts, with a number of hours of overtime on any one of those aforementioned lengths of shifts, that it is less about the time total at work and more about the lack of support to do our damn jobs the way they should be done.

    ps and screw patient entitlement and satisfaction. You come to the emergency room and you're alive (or at least better than when you arrived, for legitimate reasons)? You're satisfied.
    Yeah I don't think it would be as difficult as you state, although there would be a lot of whining from the mommy nurses who chose the profession so they could work long shifts and have more family time.

    I agree about other factors influencing health care professionals' QOL though.

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    @gaymer77 I've read the studies, long shifts by health care staff increases burnout and has other negative effects on care. This isn't limited to nursing btw. Clearly there are other things contributing but I have seen the effects of long hours on my boyfriend and friends who work as RNs/MDs.

  6. #46
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Read. The. Fucking. Article.

    I mean, could you get much more low effort? They literally explained it right in the quoted text: The nurses themselves specifically requested the 12 hour schedule. They work 3 12 hour shifts a week, usually with a decent amount of additional over time, which in their profession is much more efficient and viable than working 5 shorter shifts in a work week.
    I get they want to work 12 hour shifts... but why? Instead of working 3 days a week for 12 hours, why not 4 days a week for 9 hours? The math works the same plus you get time to relax. I wouldn't want to be in a hospital that has a nurse that has worked for 12 hours and is probably very tired.


    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    The medical and care industry is kind of fucked though. A lot of places don't give staff enough down time or retain enough workers (turnaround can be high, everybody poaches each others staff) or wages (all workers from maybe LPN and below) too low so people put in crazy hours.
    So if nurses had better pay then they'd wouldn't need to work those crazy shifts? I get nurses are overworked and need more nurses to offload the stress.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    I get they want to work 12 hour shifts... but why? Instead of working 3 days a week for 12 hours, why not 4 days a week for 9 hours? The math works the same plus you get time to relax. I wouldn't want to be in a hospital that has a nurse that has worked for 12 hours and is probably very tired.



    So if nurses had better pay then they'd wouldn't need to work those crazy shifts? I get nurses are overworked and need more nurses to offload the stress.
    RNs get excellent pay. A lot of health care professions pay excellently, dental hygenists(2 year degree) average 72k a year now which I think is similar to nursing. X-ray techs are also similar.

    The problem is gatekeeping by nursing programs and an aging/sick population. Local community college here accepts less than 10% of applicants and the average gpa for admission is like a 3.85 and most applicants have a previous degree.

    They want the 12 hour shifts so they get 3-4 days off. Really popular for young moms.

  8. #48
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Ah, misconceptions about overnight jobs and long shifts and the like... get them all the time with night pharmacy.

    "So, you pretty much just sit around all night just waiting, right?"
    "Ya, sure. I definitely don't have 7ish hours minus ER patients to do 240+ prescriptions solo. Corporations love paying heavy salaries for people to do nothing."

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboether View Post
    They work 12 hour shifts so they don't have to work every day of the working week.
    Also for continuity of care and fewer shift transitions. If you have 8 hour shifts with a single rotation it means that you're spending time handing things off half again as much as with 12 hour shifts.

  9. #49
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    RNs get excellent pay. A lot of health care professions pay excellently, dental hygenists(2 year degree) average 72k a year now which I think is similar to nursing. X-ray techs are also similar.

    The problem is gatekeeping by nursing programs and an aging/sick population. Local community college here accepts less than 10% of applicants and the average gpa for admission is like a 3.85 and most applicants have a previous degree.

    They want the 12 hour shifts so they get 3-4 days off. Really popular for young moms.
    That shows that a lot of people today need more free time. I know Amazon does something similar with a 10 hour work day for 4 days. At some point we really need laws that limit the work week and pays better, so that people have more free time like young moms spending time with their children.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    That shows that a lot of people today need more free time. I know Amazon does something similar with a 10 hour work day for 4 days. At some point we really need laws that limit the work week and pays better, so that people have more free time like young moms spending time with their children.
    I wish you the best of luck with this. We currently live in a society where people view one another's worth by how much money they have and how many hours a week they work. You've seen it right here on MMO-Champion where individuals mock those who only work 40 hours a week as lazy and make excuse after excuse as to why we can't increase wages.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    So we are for or against nurses working 12 hour shifts? That seems excessive to me. I get that they should hire more nurses so they aren't doing the job of three nurses but do you guys want to work 12 hours?
    i think youll find that most nurses prefer 3 12 hour shifts to 5 8 hour shifts

  12. #52
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Maureen Walsh is a failed lobotomy given human form, I'm not surprised she'd spout some ignorant shit like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Everyone understaffs tbh. The difference being that in healthcare understaffing can cost lifes. And while I am unsure of the situation in the US in much of Europe there is a clear nursing shortage.
    Medical degrees in general in the US are so prohibitively expensive there's definitely fewer than we need, to say nothing of nursing programs having a serious problem with gatekeeping (as mentioned by another poster).
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  13. #53
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    I wish you the best of luck with this. We currently live in a society where people view one another's worth by how much money they have and how many hours a week they work. You've seen it right here on MMO-Champion where individuals mock those who only work 40 hours a week as lazy and make excuse after excuse as to why we can't increase wages.
    There's a price to pay with that work ethic. You may get paid more but you risk effecting your health and in my opinion your health is far more important than monetary gain. We don't exactly have the technology yet to fix arthritis or heart failure. Working more hours doesn't mean you're more productive either as its been proven. I personally would rather have a hospital who has nurses that work less hours so they don't make mistakes like giving me the wrong medication or falling asleep from exhaustion. It isn't good for the nurse and it isn't good for the patient. Nurses don't want that cause they get paid less, and they want the 12 hour work shifts so they have 3-4 days of free time. But if we paid them more and they worked less I don't think the nurses would have an issue with that, plus the hospitals can hire more nurses to cover the shifts, hence more people are employed.

  14. #54
    My mom worked as a nurse in a retirement community.

    70 something patients, one nurse. She was the only one allowed to give out medications and patients were told when to expect her arrival so they could plan their mornings. However, on a significant proportion of days, she was sidetracked by someone deathly ill so she fell behind, and then get cursed at by addled old folks for the rest of the day for coming in late (and she can't explain why she was late, that violates HIPAA). She didn't bring a lunch because she didn't take lunch breaks, she brought a few granola bars and ate them on the run while working.

    Yeah, criticizing nurses is a new low.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    There's a price to pay with that work ethic. You may get paid more but you risk effecting your health and in my opinion your health is far more important than monetary gain. We don't exactly have the technology yet to fix arthritis or heart failure. Working more hours doesn't mean you're more productive either as its been proven. I personally would rather have a hospital who has nurses that work less hours so they don't make mistakes like giving me the wrong medication or falling asleep from exhaustion. It isn't good for the nurse and it isn't good for the patient. Nurses don't want that cause they get paid less, and they want the 12 hour work shifts so they have 3-4 days of free time. But if we paid them more and they worked less I don't think the nurses would have an issue with that, plus the hospitals can hire more nurses to cover the shifts, hence more people are employed.
    You'll get no argument from me that the American populace works far too many hours for far too little pay and often at the expense of our health. We've just been fed so much propaganda for so long about how we need to work hard and put in long hours in order to be successful that it's become part of our culture.

    In terms of short-staffing nurses you have to remember that healthcare in America is a for-profit business. Hospitals are in it to make as much money as possible and that involves treating as many patients as possible with the bare minimum of required staff to do so. Like everything else in most American business it's shareholders before anything else...it's easier to replace an employee (often times at a cheaper rate of pay) than it is to care for those you already have.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    My mom worked as a nurse in a retirement community.

    70 something patients, one nurse. She was the only one allowed to give out medications and patients were told when to expect her arrival so they could plan their mornings. However, on a significant proportion of days, she was sidetracked by someone deathly ill so she fell behind, and then get cursed at by addled old folks for the rest of the day for coming in late (and she can't explain why she was late, that violates HIPAA). She didn't bring a lunch because she didn't take lunch breaks, she brought a few granola bars and ate them on the run while working.

    Yeah, criticizing nurses is a new low.
    I've spent a lot of time in hospitals and taking your frustrations out on nurses is incredibly common.

    I was recently in a room with a guy who had very severe sleep apnea and cursed out all the nurses constantly. That was a fun 3 days of literally no sleep.

    I tried to ask a nurse if could move rooms and she basically broke down.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    From someone who grew up with a nurse, FU lady.

    If the Republicans get to be any more of a cartoonish villain party they will need scary organ music when ever they enter a room.
    While I don't have anything to do with 'muricans or their politics, I have to wonder: who in their sane mind WOULDN'T want scary organ music whenever they enter the room?

    You have to be pretty badass to have ominous music play whenever you show up.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Yeah I don't think it would be as difficult as you state, although there would be a lot of whining from the mommy nurses who chose the profession so they could work long shifts and have more family time.

    I agree about other factors influencing health care professionals' QOL though.

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    @gaymer77 I've read the studies, long shifts by health care staff increases burnout and has other negative effects on care. This isn't limited to nursing btw. Clearly there are other things contributing but I have seen the effects of long hours on my boyfriend and friends who work as RNs/MDs.
    As an example of the logistics... The hospital I work for has a nurse labor union. According to the contract (which is a huuuge deal. the hospital can try to make decisions that, if they violate the contract, can be overturned by the union, otherwise risk severe legal action) if a nurse wanted to switch from 12 hours shifts to a different hours the hospital would have to open an entirely new position (they could keep it to an internal-only position and not have to worry about external applicants). Again, according to the contract, that new position would be entirely affected by seniority of the nurse at the organization assuming the basic requirements are met (Bachelor's degree, ACLS/BLS certifcation, etc.) If the original nurse had 10 years of experience and some other nurse had 11 years of experience (in a completely different department) and both applied, the nurse with 11 years experience would get the job, no questions asked, no appeal, no other option.

    Now, even if you were to be hired as a variable start time, it can only vary by approximately 4 hours. Each start time would have to be covered and follow the same restrictions on seniority and opening new positions. Most floors work on a 0700-1930 and 1900-0730 rotation. Switching everything from 12's to 8's would likely have to transition to 0700-1530, 1500-2330, 2300-0730 shifts. The day starts would likely be less of an issue but the other 2 shifts are now going to be staffed by nurses who have become accustomed, according to the families, schooling, etc.. to specific start times, and expand that from 3 days a week to 5. The hospital I work at employees approximately 1200 nurses. So now, if this law passes, you'd have to rearrange over 1000 nursing positions, according to seniority, and it would have to be done as the nurses want (a good number would likely cross state borders to avoid this kind of a fiasco) and you'd have to do it all according to a brand new nursing contract. Contracts at my specific hospital have sometimes taken an entire year of negotiating. Now do it for every hospital-which likely all have their own unions with their own bargaining teams and their own individual contracts. I think you're grossly underestimating the logistical nightmare doing this for literally 10s of thousands of nursing positions and nurses across the entire state. And this would just be for hospitals.
    Last edited by medievalman1; 2019-04-20 at 03:59 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So I'm confused... is this a support the nurses thread, or bash the Rs thread?
    in this case its one in the same, and deservedly so.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    As an example of the logistics... The hospital I work for has a nurse labor union. According to the contract (which is a huuuge deal. the hospital can try to make decisions that, if they violate the contract, can be overturned by the union, otherwise risk severe legal action) if a nurse wanted to switch from 12 hours shifts to a different hours the hospital would have to open an entirely new position (they could keep it to an internal-only position and not have to worry about external applicants). Again, according to the contract, that new position would be entirely affected by seniority of the nurse at the organization assuming the basic requirements are met (Bachelor's degree, ACLS/BLS certifcation, etc.) If the original nurse had 10 years of experience and some other nurse had 11 years of experience (in a completely different department) and both applied, the nurse with 11 years experience would get the job, no questions asked, no appeal, no other option.

    Now, even if you were to be hired as a variable start time, it can only vary by approximately 4 hours. Each start time would have to be covered and follow the same restrictions on seniority and opening new positions. Most floors work on a 0700-1930 and 1900-0730 rotation. Switching everything from 12's to 8's would likely have to transition to 0700-1530, 1500-2330, 2300-0730 shifts. The day starts would likely be less of an issue but the other 2 shifts are now going to be staffed by nurses who have become accustomed, according to the families, schooling, etc.. to specific start times, and expand that from 3 days a week to 5. The hospital I work at employees approximately 1200 nurses. So now, if this law passes, you'd have to rearrange over 1000 nursing positions, according to seniority, and it would have to be done as the nurses want (a good number would likely cross state borders to avoid this kind of a fiasco) and you'd have to do it all according to a brand new nursing contract. Contracts at my specific hospital have sometimes taken an entire year of negotiating. Now do it for every hospital-which likely all have their own unions with their own bargaining teams and their own individual contracts. I think you're grossly underestimating the logistical nightmare doing this for literally 10s of thousands of nursing positions and nurses across the entire state. And this would just be for hospitals.
    Perhaps but it sounds like most of the challenge would be with union issues and state/federal law supersedes established employment contracts, which negates a lot of your post. The point is that there is no good reason to have such long nursing shifts when all of the evidence (that I have read) regarding longer shifts for nurses points towards increased burnout/fatigue, more nursing errors, and more on the job injuries, and that long hours have shown to have an adverse impact on nurses' health. Those studies adjust for all other factors that confuscate data outcomes, like number of patients under a nurse's care.

    We don't need to prop up bad practices because it's convenient and people like four day weekends. I would really love it if the data showed otherwise, I think everyone likes the idea of longer hours at work and longer weekends and I include myself in that statement. But in places like health care that practice can be dangerous.

    Again...1000% aware that the problem in nursing/health care isn't just long workdays.

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