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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    Ya know, I was thinking about your statements about the research that ruled out all variables aside from shift length... I'd like to have links. Not because I want to dissect and pick it apart piece by piece. More because I wanna know where to submit my application to a hospital that has been able to adequate solve the issues that actually cause burnout for nurses-inadequate staffing of primary care and support staff, adequate resources involved with direct care such as streamlined and quick access to medications/equipment necessary to care for patients efficiently, ensuring adequate break coverage (2 nurses covering each other for lunch when they have 6 patients a piece isn't adequate...), a sense of security and safety in their own workplace coupled with the knowledge that legal action will be taken against those that victimize healthcare workers, etc... Show me hospitals that do that and I'll move across the country.

    And to the matter at hand, show me research that has actually ruled all of these and so many other issues that cause burnout (which increases medical errors) to effectively suggest causation instead of mere correlation with shift length.
    I legit have no idea why you're getting salty, there's a lot of literature out there. Do you have access to peer-reviewed journals?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2910393/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629843/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22324559
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421/
    https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786347/

    Let me know if you want some more.
    @gaymer77 since we were discussing this earlier.

  2. #82
    Not salty, legit interested in a hospital that can adequately manage ALL of the other known things that cause medical errors/burnout while isolating shift length. But seriously, I really am, because the length of my shift is the least of my concerns.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    Not salty, legit interested in a hospital that can adequately manage ALL of the other known things that cause medical errors/burnout while isolating shift length. But seriously, I really am, because the length of my shift is the least of my concerns.
    Regression analysis is a useful tool, maybe you should read the studies and take it more seriously. I'm concerned about how dismissive you are considering the research outcomes.

    Certainly the trend toward increasing errors with longer work durations is consistent with other studies that have demonstrated that extended work periods are associated with increased accidents and neuropsychological deficits among nurses and have contributed to at least two hospitalwide epidemics of Staphylococcusaurous.
    p. 208 of the Rogers link provided earlier and again here. https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf

  4. #84
    Apparently there's a thing going around Facebook currently for Nurses to send decks of cards to Senator Walsh.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  5. #85
    My sister in law is a Nurse Practitioner. She's on her feet non-stop from the time she gets out of her car until she gets in her car to go home.

    She makes $115,000 a year and deserves it.

    Problem is, her marriage is falling apart because she gets home so tired and never puts out. She is currently going to marriage counseling

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Regression analysis is a useful tool, maybe you should read the studies and take it more seriously. I'm concerned about how dismissive you are considering the research outcomes.

    p. 208 of the Rogers link provided earlier and again here. https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf
    Yes, regression analysis is a useful tool. Unfortunately it is also difficult to use properly. Unless you are accounting for every variable it is easy for the data to lead to false conclusions. It is also extremely difficult to lead to concrete conclusions regarding causation-for that I'd need to see some RCTs, hence asking about specific hospitals (and again, I would truly be interested in working for a place that has managed all the other variables). Mind you, I won't disagree that longer shifts would be a factor in making errors/leading to burnout. What I contend with is it is far from the only variable, and I'd be quite interested in finding out how much a variable it truly is when all other very-apparent-to-employed-nurses variables are accounted for and resolved, i.e. my suspicion that in the "pie chart" of variables, the length of shift, while a contributing factor, is quite a minor slice when compared with all of the myriad other variables.

    Part of my suspicions would be where the data came from that was able to compare between 12 hour shifts and less than 12 hour shifts. The overwhelming majority of hospital based nurse shifts are done in 12 hour increments, this is in great part because of the type of unit-most are open 24 hours a day. Some departments aren't-like a perioperative unit-and I wonder how much data is skewed because of the unique challenges and experiences that each unit deals with. A unit like a perioperative unit that is staffed with primarily 8 hour shift nurses would have a dramatically different set of issues with med errors/burnout than, say, an ICU, or an ED.

    I will admit, I am not as versed in statistical analysis as I would like to be, perhaps I should stop playing cards on my breaks at work and study more statistics instead-when I actually get my breaks, and when those are actually uninterrupted.

    Also, thank you for linking that Rogers link, not sure if you had earlier, but I especially like this part of it:

    The risks of making an error were significantly increased when work shifts were longer than twelve hours, when nurses worked overtime, or when they worked more than forty
    hours per week
    Oh, and this part, bolded for emphasis so as not to put words in the authors' mouths:

    Because more than three-fourths of the shifts
    scheduled for twelve hours exceeded that time frame
    , routine use of twelve-hour
    shifts should be curtailed, and overtime—especially that associated with twelve hour shifts—should be eliminated.
    Thank you for your concern as well. I appreciate that you've taken an interest in my well-being.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    Yes, regression analysis is a useful tool. Unfortunately it is also difficult to use properly. Unless you are accounting for every variable it is easy for the data to lead to false conclusions. It is also extremely difficult to lead to concrete conclusions regarding causation-for that I'd need to see some RCTs, hence asking about specific hospitals (and again, I would truly be interested in working for a place that has managed all the other variables). Mind you, I won't disagree that longer shifts would be a factor in making errors/leading to burnout. What I contend with is it is far from the only variable, and I'd be quite interested in finding out how much a variable it truly is when all other very-apparent-to-employed-nurses variables are accounted for and resolved, i.e. my suspicion that in the "pie chart" of variables, the length of shift, while a contributing factor, is quite a minor slice when compared with all of the myriad other variables.

    Part of my suspicions would be where the data came from that was able to compare between 12 hour shifts and less than 12 hour shifts. The overwhelming majority of hospital based nurse shifts are done in 12 hour increments, this is in great part because of the type of unit-most are open 24 hours a day. Some departments aren't-like a perioperative unit-and I wonder how much data is skewed because of the unique challenges and experiences that each unit deals with. A unit like a perioperative unit that is staffed with primarily 8 hour shift nurses would have a dramatically different set of issues with med errors/burnout than, say, an ICU, or an ED.

    I will admit, I am not as versed in statistical analysis as I would like to be, perhaps I should stop playing cards on my breaks at work and study more statistics instead-when I actually get my breaks, and when those are actually uninterrupted.

    Also, thank you for linking that Rogers link, not sure if you had earlier, but I especially like this part of it:



    Oh, and this part, bolded for emphasis so as not to put words in the authors' mouths:



    Thank you for your concern as well. I appreciate that you've taken an interest in my well-being.
    You must have also missed the part in more than one study, including the same part of that sentence that you quoted, that said that an increase in errors at work started to increase over 8.5 hours. The level of statistical analysis that you're going to get from these studies are as good as you're going to get in studies involving human subjects in non-controlled settings. If you have research that counters those findings then feel free to link them.

    Just so you know, I looked into this topic and apparently there are several nurses that are also concerned about long shifts due to reasons involving the health of nurses and patient care. I'm sad to see that you are not one of them. You do not seem like someone who should be in charge of patients, if you're putting your desire for 12 hour shifts above objective research data and making weak excuses about how changing shift lengths will involve time and effort. I hope that's not the case.

    I also agree that shift length is certainly not the only variable, but I've said that in the thread already.

  8. #88
    As a phycisian I can attest to the fact that nurses are the back-bone of any hospital. They work hard, make long hours, make a fraction of what we do and get even less appreciation. I literally smacked a colleague for repeatedly treating some of our nurses as slaves. Yes, I got into a bit of trouble, but in the end the board stood behind me and the man responsibe got a reprimand.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2019-04-21 at 08:05 PM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    As a phycisian I can attest to the fact nurses are the back-bone of any hospital. They work hard, make long hours make a fraction of what we do and get even less appreciation. I literally smacked a colleague for repeatedly treating some of our nurses as slaves. Yes, I got into a bit of trouble, but in the end the board stood behind me and the man responsibe got a reprimand.
    ...and this is why my law degree will never be worthless.

    Do you think you could have used your words next time? *mom voice* Fucking Christ.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    ...and this is why my law degree will never be worthless.

    Do you think you could have used your words next time? *mom voice* Fucking Christ.
    Hey, I never said it was a smart thing to do.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    You must have also missed the part in more than one study, including the same part of that sentence that you quoted, that said that an increase in errors at work started to increase over 8.5 hours. The level of statistical analysis that you're going to get from these studies are as good as you're going to get in studies involving human subjects in non-controlled settings. If you have research that counters those findings then feel free to link them.

    Just so you know, I looked into this topic and apparently there are several nurses that are also concerned about long shifts due to reasons involving the health of nurses and patient care. I'm sad to see that you are not one of them. You do not seem like someone who should be in charge of patients, if you're putting your desire for 12 hour shifts above objective research data and making weak excuses about how changing shift lengths will involve time and effort. I hope that's not the case.

    I also agree that shift length is certainly not the only variable, but I've said that in the thread already.
    Again with the ad hominem. Come on! As it turns out, I don't work 12 hour shifts, thus I don't have any interest/desire in keeping my 12 hour shifts-because I don't work them. This little spat between us is when you dismissed how much of a logistics issue it would be to convert the majority of 65,000+ RNs in an entire state, and all the pitfalls and problems that would cause.

  12. #92
    Bloodsail Admiral vastx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I have never known any nurse in my life (relatives, GFs, etc) that was not an extremely hard worker and didn't almost always complain about how stressful and nonstop work is.

    I was going to say how can anybody be so out of touch, but then I saw the (R) next to her name and it made more sense.
    Yeah, all Republicans must share her view.

  13. #93
    What a dumb bitch, probably projection since it looks like she sits on her ass all day.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So I'm confused... is this a support the nurses thread, or bash the Rs thread?
    It's bash someone that's out of touch period thread.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2019-04-21 at 08:37 PM.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  15. #95
    Still not as dumb as AOC or Ilhan Omar.

  16. #96
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vastx View Post
    Yeah, all Republicans must share her view.
    I didn't say share her view, I said out of touch

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    Yet ANOTHER Republican politician who doesn't have a fucking clue about the goings on in this world. As someone who grew up in a nursing family, as someone who IS a nurse I can speak how inaccurate this woman's views are of nurses. Nurses often times miss their breaks and lunches because the demand of patient care is so high. Nurses often don't have time to go to the bathroom when they need to because they have to do patient care, console a family who just lost a loved one, give medications to patients who desperately need it, and are late leaving for home because there was too much going on to be released when their shift was supposed to end. How about we take this bitch and make her work a standard shift shadowing a nurse in a hospital and maybe she'll see how much card playing nurses do in the day!

    IMO they need to get it out of the governments hands and let the nurses handle it. Most politicians democrat or republican don’t have a clue of what everyday Americans go through and need.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by medievalman1 View Post
    Again with the ad hominem. Come on! As it turns out, I don't work 12 hour shifts, thus I don't have any interest/desire in keeping my 12 hour shifts-because I don't work them. This little spat between us is when you dismissed how much of a logistics issue it would be to convert the majority of 65,000+ RNs in an entire state, and all the pitfalls and problems that would cause.
    If you know that a practice causes harm to patients and nurses alike, why fight so hard to maintain the status quo? I'm acknowledging that it would be a transition initially but would have long-term benefits for the profession. Also hopefully for MDs and other health care professionals.

  19. #99
    I would think it depends entirely on the location, like city, type of hospital, the station in question, current amount of patients, etc.. I've surely seen some nurses on some stations in our backwater hospital that didn't exactly seem to be having a hard time, at least during visiting hours. But I certainly know nurses in the next major city that are not that fortunate.

    A senator spouting such undifferentiated stuff is not exactly reasuring though.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2019-04-21 at 09:14 PM.

  20. #100
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Still not as dumb as AOC or Ilhan Omar.
    Yes yes vomit all the propaganda you have been fed from Fox, good little npc

    Quote Originally Posted by Nfinitii View Post
    Most politicians democrat or republican don’t have a clue of what everyday Americans go through and need.
    QTF

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