Nurses "Play Cards For a Considerable Amount Of The Day"

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Why do I feel like in reality these politicians "play cards" for considerable amounts of their day...

[Belize]

I have a friend who's a nurse and was screaming some incredibly colorful things at her phone when she saw this.

It's amazing how people this stupid keep getting elected.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

My wife is a nurse. Started off on the ER where it was no breaks, extra hours, and low pay. Granted eventually she got on with individual doctors and it became easier. But when I say easier it isn't playing spades 6 hours a day. Its like you work 8 to 5 and get actually get off at 5 99% of the time. Pay is better. But cards.. lol.. no..

[D Luniz]

I have a friend who's a nurse and was screaming some incredibly colorful things at her phone when she saw this.

It's amazing how people this stupid keep getting elected.

people tend to vote on the "would I enjoy drink'n with them at the bar" standard
me, I wouldnt want ANY of the people I knew that met only that standard having power over anything

[Belize]

people tend to vote on the "would I enjoy drink'n with them at the bar" standard
me, I wouldnt want ANY of the people I knew that met only that standard having power over anything

Maybe I'm a "Liberal Elite", but a condescending overweight elderly prick is the last person I'd want to go to the bar with. That's just me though, maybe my standards are too high.

[Agrossive]

Pure pandering to whoever's is filling her pockets, nurses are one of the most overworked professions in the world and everyone knows that. This dumbass is crazy to think anyone would agree with her.

[Vash The Stampede]

I've learned something here, and that is a lot of people who post here are nurses. What I'd like to know is what benefit do hospitals get from reducing working hours for nurses?

[kneehidude]

I'm more than willing to take heat on this for being ignorant, but why are nurses, of all professions, working 12-hour shifts. I understand a lot of people would like to work in big chunks for 3 days and get the rest of the week off. I understand it's nice for patients to see the same faces all day and that it's easier for the hospital to schedule longer shifts.

However, what about fatigue and burn-out on a life-saving job? Is it humane to expect people to work 12 hours (or more) in a row? Is it safe to the nurse and to patients? I don't have the answers, just the questions.

As an RT (fairly similar to RN) the amount of hours per shift is not really taxing as many people think. In all honesty, it would probably lead to more burn out if we worked 5 days a week and only had 2 days to recover than what we have currently.

The issue with fatigue and/or general tiredness is not due to shifts being what they are, it's the demands that are forced upon us during the shift. Mainly having to deal with unrealistic expectations (answer all call lights within a certain time frame) or dealing with unruly patients and/or their family members.

[medievalman1]

<snip>

Ya know, I was thinking about your statements about the research that ruled out all variables aside from shift length... I'd like to have links. Not because I want to dissect and pick it apart piece by piece. More because I wanna know where to submit my application to a hospital that has been able to adequate solve the issues that actually cause burnout for nurses-inadequate staffing of primary care and support staff, adequate resources involved with direct care such as streamlined and quick access to medications/equipment necessary to care for patients efficiently, ensuring adequate break coverage (2 nurses covering each other for lunch when they have 6 patients a piece isn't adequate...), a sense of security and safety in their own workplace coupled with the knowledge that legal action will be taken against those that victimize healthcare workers, etc... Show me hospitals that do that and I'll move across the country.

And to the matter at hand, show me research that has actually ruled all of these and so many other issues that cause burnout (which increases medical errors) to effectively suggest causation instead of mere correlation with shift length.

[Fincayra]

I'm more surprised that someone helping run the country still thinks people play cards. I think that's evidence that we shouldn't be electing politicians over the age of 40...

[gaymer77]

I've learned something here, and that is a lot of people who post here are nurses. What I'd like to know is what benefit do hospitals get from reducing working hours for nurses?

That's the thing. Hospitals don't get shit by reducing the number of hours nurses work. In fact, they stand to lose if nurses are cut back to 8 hour shifts. They would have to hire more nurses because they would have to have more nurses in 1 day than they currently have. As it is now, many nurses come in for OT on their off days if/when they are called by the hospital because so & so called in sick.

[medievalman1]

That's the thing. Hospitals don't get shit by reducing the number of hours nurses work. In fact, they stand to lose if nurses are cut back to 8 hour shifts. They would have to hire more nurses because they would have to have more nurses in 1 day than they currently have. As it is now, many nurses come in for OT on their off days if/when they are called by the hospital because so & so called in sick.

And that's assuming they actually get all of those shifts filled. As it would stand, in any given day you would have an increased likelihood of sick calls/leaves/simply not being staffed, negatively affect each unit's capacity for patients or increase patient to nurse ratios to cover the gaps.

[Celista]

Ya know, I was thinking about your statements about the research that ruled out all variables aside from shift length... I'd like to have links. Not because I want to dissect and pick it apart piece by piece. More because I wanna know where to submit my application to a hospital that has been able to adequate solve the issues that actually cause burnout for nurses-inadequate staffing of primary care and support staff, adequate resources involved with direct care such as streamlined and quick access to medications/equipment necessary to care for patients efficiently, ensuring adequate break coverage (2 nurses covering each other for lunch when they have 6 patients a piece isn't adequate...), a sense of security and safety in their own workplace coupled with the knowledge that legal action will be taken against those that victimize healthcare workers, etc... Show me hospitals that do that and I'll move across the country.

And to the matter at hand, show me research that has actually ruled all of these and so many other issues that cause burnout (which increases medical errors) to effectively suggest causation instead of mere correlation with shift length.

I legit have no idea why you're getting salty, there's a lot of literature out there. Do you have access to peer-reviewed journals?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2910393/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629843/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22324559
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421/
https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786347/

Let me know if you want some more.
@gaymer77 since we were discussing this earlier.

[medievalman1]

I legit have no idea why you're getting salty, there's a lot of literature out there. Do you have access to peer-reviewed journals?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2910393/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629843/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22324559
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421/
https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3786347/

Let me know if you want some more.

Not salty, legit interested in a hospital that can adequately manage ALL of the other known things that cause medical errors/burnout while isolating shift length. But seriously, I really am, because the length of my shift is the least of my concerns.

[Celista]

Not salty, legit interested in a hospital that can adequately manage ALL of the other known things that cause medical errors/burnout while isolating shift length. But seriously, I really am, because the length of my shift is the least of my concerns.

Regression analysis is a useful tool, maybe you should read the studies and take it more seriously. I'm concerned about how dismissive you are considering the research outcomes.

Certainly the trend toward increasing errors with longer work durations is consistent with other studies that have demonstrated that extended work periods are associated with increased accidents and neuropsychological deficits among nurses and have contributed to at least two hospitalwide epidemics of Staphylococcusaurous.

p. 208 of the Rogers link provided earlier and again here. https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf

[Captain N]

Apparently there's a thing going around Facebook currently for Nurses to send decks of cards to Senator Walsh.

[Weeps]

My sister in law is a Nurse Practitioner. She's on her feet non-stop from the time she gets out of her car until she gets in her car to go home.

She makes $115,000 a year and deserves it.

Problem is, her marriage is falling apart because she gets home so tired and never puts out. She is currently going to marriage counseling

[medievalman1]

Regression analysis is a useful tool, maybe you should read the studies and take it more seriously. I'm concerned about how dismissive you are considering the research outcomes.

p. 208 of the Rogers link provided earlier and again here. https://www.massnurses.org/files/fil...0704Rogers.pdf

Yes, regression analysis is a useful tool. Unfortunately it is also difficult to use properly. Unless you are accounting for every variable it is easy for the data to lead to false conclusions. It is also extremely difficult to lead to concrete conclusions regarding causation-for that I'd need to see some RCTs, hence asking about specific hospitals (and again, I would truly be interested in working for a place that has managed all the other variables). Mind you, I won't disagree that longer shifts would be a factor in making errors/leading to burnout. What I contend with is it is far from the only variable, and I'd be quite interested in finding out how much a variable it truly is when all other very-apparent-to-employed-nurses variables are accounted for and resolved, i.e. my suspicion that in the "pie chart" of variables, the length of shift, while a contributing factor, is quite a minor slice when compared with all of the myriad other variables.

Part of my suspicions would be where the data came from that was able to compare between 12 hour shifts and less than 12 hour shifts. The overwhelming majority of hospital based nurse shifts are done in 12 hour increments, this is in great part because of the type of unit-most are open 24 hours a day. Some departments aren't-like a perioperative unit-and I wonder how much data is skewed because of the unique challenges and experiences that each unit deals with. A unit like a perioperative unit that is staffed with primarily 8 hour shift nurses would have a dramatically different set of issues with med errors/burnout than, say, an ICU, or an ED.

I will admit, I am not as versed in statistical analysis as I would like to be, perhaps I should stop playing cards on my breaks at work and study more statistics instead-when I actually get my breaks, and when those are actually uninterrupted.

Also, thank you for linking that Rogers link, not sure if you had earlier, but I especially like this part of it:

The risks of making an error were significantly increased when work shifts were longer than twelve hours, when nurses worked overtime, or when they worked more than forty
hours per week

Oh, and this part, bolded for emphasis so as not to put words in the authors' mouths:

Because more than three-fourths of the shifts
scheduled for twelve hours exceeded that time frame, routine use of twelve-hour
shifts should be curtailed, and overtime—especially that associated with twelve hour shifts—should be eliminated.

Thank you for your concern as well. I appreciate that you've taken an interest in my well-being.

[Celista]

Yes, regression analysis is a useful tool. Unfortunately it is also difficult to use properly. Unless you are accounting for every variable it is easy for the data to lead to false conclusions. It is also extremely difficult to lead to concrete conclusions regarding causation-for that I'd need to see some RCTs, hence asking about specific hospitals (and again, I would truly be interested in working for a place that has managed all the other variables). Mind you, I won't disagree that longer shifts would be a factor in making errors/leading to burnout. What I contend with is it is far from the only variable, and I'd be quite interested in finding out how much a variable it truly is when all other very-apparent-to-employed-nurses variables are accounted for and resolved, i.e. my suspicion that in the "pie chart" of variables, the length of shift, while a contributing factor, is quite a minor slice when compared with all of the myriad other variables.

Part of my suspicions would be where the data came from that was able to compare between 12 hour shifts and less than 12 hour shifts. The overwhelming majority of hospital based nurse shifts are done in 12 hour increments, this is in great part because of the type of unit-most are open 24 hours a day. Some departments aren't-like a perioperative unit-and I wonder how much data is skewed because of the unique challenges and experiences that each unit deals with. A unit like a perioperative unit that is staffed with primarily 8 hour shift nurses would have a dramatically different set of issues with med errors/burnout than, say, an ICU, or an ED.

I will admit, I am not as versed in statistical analysis as I would like to be, perhaps I should stop playing cards on my breaks at work and study more statistics instead-when I actually get my breaks, and when those are actually uninterrupted.

Also, thank you for linking that Rogers link, not sure if you had earlier, but I especially like this part of it:



Oh, and this part, bolded for emphasis so as not to put words in the authors' mouths:



Thank you for your concern as well. I appreciate that you've taken an interest in my well-being.

You must have also missed the part in more than one study, including the same part of that sentence that you quoted, that said that an increase in errors at work started to increase over 8.5 hours. The level of statistical analysis that you're going to get from these studies are as good as you're going to get in studies involving human subjects in non-controlled settings. If you have research that counters those findings then feel free to link them.

Just so you know, I looked into this topic and apparently there are several nurses that are also concerned about long shifts due to reasons involving the health of nurses and patient care. I'm sad to see that you are not one of them. You do not seem like someone who should be in charge of patients, if you're putting your desire for 12 hour shifts above objective research data and making weak excuses about how changing shift lengths will involve time and effort. I hope that's not the case.

I also agree that shift length is certainly not the only variable, but I've said that in the thread already.

[nocturnus]

As a phycisian I can attest to the fact that nurses are the back-bone of any hospital. They work hard, make long hours, make a fraction of what we do and get even less appreciation. I literally smacked a colleague for repeatedly treating some of our nurses as slaves. Yes, I got into a bit of trouble, but in the end the board stood behind me and the man responsibe got a reprimand.