CoS - World First Thread

[Jibbler]

Yes they should do about 75% of a spec that doesn't have the option of multidotting on pure single target.

75% would be really bad for them, shadow had bad single target for a long time with the reason being they had good 2-3 target cleave. It didn't work out for them. You'd see guilds maybe using one shadow priest. The only thing you can guarantee in a boss fight is there will be at least one boss. Let classes have good single target and also a niche they can have fun with every once in a while. Blizzard has just been using fights that favor multidotting classes a lot recently. They should get a nerf but blizzard should also take into account multidotting classes when designing encounters.

[Barzotti]

It isn't that hard to tune multidoters, you don't even have to tune them specifically if that's going to be their niche. The problem in turn is that, lets use Shadow as an example, they also have superb single target which they shouldn't if their niche is going to be multi-dotting. Yes they should do about 75% of a spec that doesn't have the option of multidotting on pure single target. Otherwise you end up in a situation, like right now, where you literally have the top US guild running 8 Shadow Priests and are still struggling to beat the encounter because of a tight enrage timer.

A dot class should never excel in single target, AoE, multidot, and burst AoE all at the same time without having to even swap talents.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...unt&dataset=90
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

This is exactly my point, first 5 in Dazar'alor have a huge lead over any other dps, and they're all multidot classes and several of the encounters DON'T HAVE consistent multidot opportunities. Even if you shift it to a mostly single target fight like Grong specs that are supposed to excel in single target are a good 6-7k behind Shadow Priest.

I don't know enough about class balance to respond precisely so I'll trust you. But Limit is not wiping because of a lack of dps currently, but because they don't master the fight entirely. When they start the fight the timers says "13 minutes enrage" too.

[Zyky]

75% would be really bad for them, shadow had bad single target for a long time with the reason being they had good 2-3 target cleave. It didn't work out for them. You'd see guilds maybe using one shadow priest. The only thing you can guarantee in a boss fight is there will be at least one boss. Let classes have good single target and also a niche they can have fun with every once in a while. Blizzard has just been using fights that favor multidotting classes a lot recently. They should get a nerf but blizzard should also take into account multidotting classes when designing encounters.

Instead you see guilds stacking them and none of the classes that are supposed to be good at their one niche and aren't as good as a spec that fills EVERY niche. They need to pick one niche and let shadow have it, because it's absurd that they fill every niche with perfection and no downside. Because instead you see very few hunters, most groups will only run one Warrior and only for shout because their damage is pretty poor in every situation, one to no dps DKs, at most one Ret Pally. The numbers don't lie and because of a handful of overtuned dot classes everyone else suffers. Class design is in the worst place it's been since Vanilla when some specs were just not viable at all. The specs that have a single niche can't even perform in that niche roll because of specs like Shadow, Boomkin, Affliction, and Destro because they dominate ST, AoE, Multidot, and Burst AoE. The bottom line is, gut these classes across the board for roles that aren't their niche. If the niche is 2-3 target multidotting, than that's their niche and should not be doing as good or better than a spec who's niche is single target damage and doesn't have multidotting. Because the argument you're making for Shadow Priest works exactly the same way for the several specs that are missing right now.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know enough about class balance to respond precisely so I'll trust you. But Limit is not wiping because of a lack of dps currently, but because they don't master the fight entirely. When they start the fight the timers says "13 minutes enrage" too.

Unless it was changed within the last couple hours, the enrage was listed at 8 minutes 30 seconds at the beginning of progression and they were barely getting the bosses to 60% 4 minutes in. Regardless of why Limit is wiping, the problem stands that some specs just have it all and many specs have nothing.

[redf]

It isn't that hard to tune multidoters, you don't even have to tune them specifically if that's going to be their niche. The problem in turn is that, lets use Shadow as an example, they also have superb single target which they shouldn't if their niche is going to be multi-dotting. Yes they should do about 75% of a spec that doesn't have the option of multidotting on pure single target. Otherwise you end up in a situation, like right now, where you literally have the top US guild running 8 Shadow Priests and are still struggling to beat the encounter because of a tight enrage timer.

A dot class should never excel in single target, AoE, multidot, and burst AoE all at the same time without having to even swap talents.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...unt&dataset=90
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...gregate=amount

This is exactly my point, first 5 in Dazar'alor have a huge lead over any other dps, and they're all multidot classes and several of the encounters DON'T HAVE consistent multidot opportunities. Even if you shift it to a mostly single target fight like Grong specs that are supposed to excel in single target are a good 6-7k behind Shadow Priest.

this gets boring. if you design a raid where every boss but 1 caters to multi dotting you get surprised that a multi dotter is above non dotters... shocking

Yeah nerf Shadows Nerf Boomkins Nerf Warlocks.. Nerf them all. Then Players will stack Mages or DH or whatever else and the bitching continues

circle of life

[Jibbler]

this gets boring. if you design a raid where every boss but 1 caters to multi dotting you get surprised that a multi dotter is above non dotters... shocking

Yeah nerf Shadows Nerf Boomkins Nerf Warlocks.. Nerf them all. Then Players will stack Mages or DH or whatever else and the bitching continues

circle of life

This. The top guilds will stack a class if its 3% better. They will always take the best class

[Tehterokkar]

I don't know enough about class balance to respond precisely so I'll trust you. But Limit is not wiping because of a lack of dps currently, but because they don't master the fight entirely. When they start the fight the timers says "13 minutes enrage" too.

Shocking that Mythic and Heroic can have different berserk timers.

[Zyky]

this gets boring. if you design a raid where every boss but 1 caters to multi dotting you get surprised that a multi dotter is above non dotters... shocking

Yeah nerf Shadows Nerf Boomkins Nerf Warlocks.. Nerf them all. Then Players will stack Mages or DH or whatever else and the bitching continues

circle of life

The difference is they're so far ahead, that they warrant nerfs. They're ahead in single target, they're ahead in multidot, they're ahead in AoE. And it's not even a marginal number they're ahead by a good 9% in most cases, in overall dazar'alor they're 35% ahead of the lowest DPS spec, this is unacceptable and warranting of nerfs for these specs, or buffs for the substantially guttered specs to bring them into par.

- - - Updated - - -

This. The top guilds will stack a class if its 3% better. They will always take the best class

They won't though, this has been proven going back to the 2 end bosses in Nighthold and Antorus where they didn't stack overpowered DPS and the only reason the were forced to stack in Tomb was because of the huge amounts of soaks required for almost every boss, it wasn't even for DPS reasons.

[redf]

The difference is they're so far ahead, that they warrant nerfs. They're ahead in single target, they're ahead in multidot, they're ahead in AoE. And it's not even a marginal number they're ahead by a good 9% in most cases, in overall dazar'alor they're 35% ahead of the lowest DPS spec, this is unacceptable and warranting of nerfs for these specs, or buffs for the substantially guttered specs to bring them into par.

- - - Updated - - -



They won't though, this has been proven going back to the 2 end bosses in Nighthold and Antorus where they didn't stack overpowered DPS and the only reason the were forced to stack in Tomb was because of the huge amounts of soaks required for almost every boss, it wasn't even for DPS reasons.

they are not ahead in single target

[Zyky]

they are not ahead in single target

They are: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...metric=bossdps

Filtered to only show Boss damage.

[redf]

They are: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...metric=bossdps

Filtered to only show Boss damage.

so 1 boss is ahead for you ?

and even thats only because they have twist of fate up i assume

[zantheus1993]

Headstart in terms of actual progress time. They don't have to smash their heads to early bosses and fatigue themselves.

Knowing strats > 16 hours headstart
Limit's vs Method's amount of Jaina kills proves this too. Method killed Jaina only 2 times while Limit is killing her with alts as well.

Method killed jaina two times before limit killed her once btw

[Nitros14]

Haha 10 shadow priests.

Good balance.

[trapmaster]

Shocking that Mythic and Heroic can have different berserk timers.

Ohhh damn, that's TERRIFYING ENRAGE TIMER...

[redf]

Haha 10 shadow priests.

Good balance.

there are other guilds not using 8+ shadows that are ahead of limit

[Nitros14]

there are other guilds not using 8+ shadows that are ahead of limit

Only what? 5 shadow priests then?

[Gurdor]

there are other guilds not using 8+ shadows that are ahead of limit

Do you have a link to stream of guilds closer, I've been flicking through twitch and Limit seem like the only ones close as far as I can tell.

[redf]

Do you have a link to stream of guilds closer, I've been flicking through twitch and Limit seem like the only ones close as far as I can tell.

https://www.twitch.tv/team/bdg
https://www.twitch.tv/team/wildcardgaming

[Gurdor]

BDG are behind Limit, even when they occasionally reach the lightning phases they are behind the dps check, I'll take a look at Wildcard but last I saw they were doing heroic.

[redf]

well they were closer to a kill than limit so far

[Onikaroshi]

Thought wildcard was dead lol.