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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I'm not yet sure if they will bring up Calia. Sure its possible but... if Sylvanas & Nathanos are gone... who is left to lead the Forsaken?
    The rewritten Voss is a servicable character, but the motivation she gives - that she now sees the living and the dead as irreconcilible doesn't apply to a situation of peace between factions where humans and undead can shake hands and prance off into the sunset. That and she has no unique model and not enough name recognition. With Nathanos signaled to be staying with Sylvanas to the end and all the lesser Forsaken characters not brought up, Calia has the highest prospects in my view.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #122
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I'm not yet sure if they will bring up Calia. Sure its possible but... if Sylvanas & Nathanos are gone... who is left to lead the Forsaken?
    Calia's being heavily hinted at in the Alliance war campaign. My guess is Lightforged Undead are going to be a thing, led by Calia in the Alliance as a sort of 'remnant of Lordaeron' faction that maintains their identity as Lordaeron citizens, unlike the Forsaken who have adopted a new national identity in Lordaeron's ashes (which is fair play, kingdoms rise and fall; I don't know many Germans who identify as Prussian or Italians who identify as Roman).
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Calia's being heavily hinted at in the Alliance war campaign. My guess is Lightforged Undead are going to be a thing, led by Calia in the Alliance as a sort of 'remnant of Lordaeron' faction that maintains their identity as Lordaeron citizens, unlike the Forsaken who have adopted a new national identity in Lordaeron's ashes (which is fair play, kingdoms rise and fall; I don't know many Germans who identify as Prussian or Italians who identify as Roman).
    While that'd still be an evil and based around the frustrating retcon that the Forsaken are banned from practicing their identity as Lordaeronian nationals by Sylvanas despite Sylvanas being the one to coach her conquest in Cataclysm in the terms of Lordaeron patriotism and it being a constant motif of the post-Cata Forsaken, it would be the lesser evil. Sure, the Forsaken would lose a core thematic point and you'd have a race that's undead but with zero of the downsides thereof, but as vile as that is, at least the Forsaken would somewhat exist in a version somewhat similar to their current form. Calia as a Horde leader has all the downsides of her as an Alliance allied race leader and more.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I'm not yet sure if they will bring up Calia. Sure its possible but... if Sylvanas & Nathanos are gone... who is left to lead the Forsaken?
    Lillian Vos. Her character is being set up that way i think. Nathan is to mutch of a brown nose to go against sylvanas

    Edit: i always omit the "os" from his name because their trying to hard to make him an edge lord
    Last edited by bowlink; 2019-04-23 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    I refer you to the months where they played coy with the burning of Teldrassil and how it would 'totally be a surprise who did it,' only for the players to say "Sylvanas," and for the devs to continue being coy about it. Then it turned out to be Sylvanas. Right now, Ion and Afrasiabi are not very good at plot twists. It's less Sixth Sense and more Lady in the Water.
    There is a difference in trying to make a plot twist surprising and going completely opposite. If they had said "it's not sylvanas" then you'd have a point. If they did, I concede that anything is possible. So far I see no indication that they would do a lie like that in this situation.

    It's not about plot twist its about saying she won't be something and then becomes it. That's a lie, not a plot twist.

  6. #126
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    While that'd still be an evil and based around the frustrating retcon that the Forsaken are banned from practicing their identity as Lordaeronian nationals by Sylvanas despite Sylvanas being the one to coach her conquest in Cataclysm in the terms of Lordaeron patriotism and it being a constant motif of the post-Cata Forsaken, it would be the lesser evil. Sure, the Forsaken would lose a core thematic point and you'd have a race that's undead but with zero of the downsides thereof, but as vile as that is, at least the Forsaken would somewhat exist in a version somewhat similar to their current form. Calia as a Horde leader has all the downsides of her as an Alliance allied race leader and more.
    Well, my line of thought is that the Forsaken can embrace what makes them who they are. They're bastard-coated bastards, filled with bastard filling. The Horde's wetwork team willing to do the dirty jobs Thrall doesn't have the heart for, and their distance gives the noble Horde members plausible deniability. Too, they could put Lordaeron as a nation to rest and decree that they're not beholden to the past, that this is Forsaken territory and the Alliance needs to piss right off with that 'reclaim what isn't yours' shit. The idea there is, Lordaeron is gone. Get over it and stop killing us over your rosy view of the glory days. Turn that narrative on its head.

    As for how the Lightforged Undead work as a concept, I actually like the idea that they're essentially a race of martyrs. We know undead are in searing pain when someone uses the Light to heal them, that priests tend to go insane as a result of recovering some of their senses and all the downsides related to it. There's a lot to play with there for Lightforging. They could stand next to the void elves as evidence that overwhelming Light is just as damaging as overwhelming Void--one race has to resist madness from the Void's whispers, the other has to resist falling to madness from constant pain. It'd also stand as a foil to the Lightforged Draenei by showing zealotry has its price.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    While that'd still be an evil and based around the frustrating retcon that the Forsaken are banned from practicing their identity as Lordaeronian nationals by Sylvanas despite Sylvanas being the one to coach her conquest in Cataclysm in the terms of Lordaeron patriotism and it being a constant motif of the post-Cata Forsaken, it would be the lesser evil. Sure, the Forsaken would lose a core thematic point and you'd have a race that's undead but with zero of the downsides thereof, but as vile as that is, at least the Forsaken would somewhat exist in a version somewhat similar to their current form. Calia as a Horde leader has all the downsides of her as an Alliance allied race leader and more.
    So Forsaken will be just Lordaeronians but dead, thats my guess as well. They might bring Calia to the Horde/Forsaken (it makes sense she is their TRUE queen) but I think Derek will be there as well, he basically does not have anything to do anyways.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Well, my line of thought is that the Forsaken can embrace what makes them who they are. They're bastard-coated bastards, filled with bastard filling. The Horde's wetwork team willing to do the dirty jobs Thrall doesn't have the heart for, and their distance gives the noble Horde members plausible deniability. Too, they could put Lordaeron as a nation to rest and decree that they're not beholden to the past, that this is Forsaken territory and the Alliance needs to piss right off with that 'reclaim what isn't yours' shit. The idea there is, Lordaeron is gone. Get over it and stop killing us over your rosy view of the glory days. Turn that narrative on its head.
    My issue with this, and I admit that ship has already sailed with BTS, that the Forsaken already had both angles going. In Cataclysm the Forsaken worked to reclaim their Lordaeron identity but at the same time adopted a positive view of undeath for some. You had a lot of variety at this. Straight-up Lordaeronian patriots that just happened to be dead and defending their land, those protecting it based on the logic you suggest and even people for who it was just a way to fill the void. A stand out for me was that dark ranger in Arathi who says that maybe once they have Lordaeron that'll mean something and she'll feel fulfilment over something. The Forsaken are a very varied race and what Blizzard are doing in dumbing them down to just one identity is what annoys me.

    I will say though that the Forsaken as the token evil teammate but one part of the Horde is by far among the best options out there compared to what else is there, so I wouldn't turn it down. It would at least keep the comically evil thing we had in places like Hillsbrad going.

    As for how the Lightforged Undead work as a concept, I actually like the idea that they're essentially a race of martyrs. We know undead are in searing pain when someone uses the Light to heal them, that priests tend to go insane as a result of recovering some of their senses and all the downsides related to it. There's a lot to play with there for Lightforging. They could stand next to the void elves as evidence that overwhelming Light is just as damaging as overwhelming Void--one race has to resist madness from the Void's whispers, the other has to resist falling to madness from constant pain. It'd also stand as a foil to the Lightforged Draenei by showing zealotry has its price.
    That would be a pretty cool twist on them and maintain what I enjoy about the undead's current relationship with the Light. My other favorite and equally unlikely to happen is for them to be basically automatons. Being undead, they don't need food, water, sleep etc. Being blessed by the Light, they don't have the downsides of undeath either. They've basically reached earthly contentment and have zero reason to doubt or hesitate, but it also costs them perspective. Turn them into bizzaro Scarlets or a spin on the Lightbound - they really are morally unassailable and their state of being is superior and they want to help everyone else be like that.

    For what I think is likely, @Hellspawn sums it up.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    and some of us prefer more adult story lines. No need to be so childish about it.

    personally, sylvanas is about the only warchief ive ever respected as the horde. If you wanna play a hero, go play the alliance.

    We are literally a collection of every monster race from every fantasy ever. We are orcs, goblins, drug addict elves, minotaurs, flesh eating zombies.... in what twisted reality are we the good guys? EMBRACE THE DARKNESS
    Thinking being dark and edgy is "adult" is, ironically, very childish. Warcraft was always based on getting these monster races and fleshing them out, telling the other side of the story, and giving the "monsters" a plausible motivation other than "being evil".

    LotR orcs, for example, are evil because they are born corrupt, they are made twisted from the very beginning. In Warcraft, the orc race corruption is a tragedy. Yes, they are brutal and barbaric, but they are also effectively refugees trying to find their place in the world and trying to reconnect with their culture after the destruction of the homeland. The original minotaur was a cursed abomination born out of the vengeance or a spiteful god, while Warcraft minotaurs are stoic earth-protectors. Trolls are still savage and cannibalistic, but rather than beign dim-witted monsters living in mountain caves and under bridges, they have a rich history of empires and wars, kings and sages.

    Even Sylvanas' forsaken, rathen than being the mindless horde of undead of traditional fantasy, are also tragic figures who lost their home and were rejected by their people, trying to do whatever they need to survive, but without losing their identity and free will, trying to look into the abyss without being devoured by it.

    So yeah, the Horde was never meant to be the "evil" faction. It's supposed to be a faction that lets the monster be the hero, and the traditional heroes be the monsters. This is what attracted me to the Horde in the first place.

  10. #130
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueHorde View Post
    Nazjatar is like ToT, Bob is pacting “peace” again with the Alliance (Jaina) and wait for Saurfang’s revolution to take heat.

    Thrall, Saurfang and Baine. BFA
    Thrall, Vol’jin and Baine. MoP

    Save Baine,Kil Sunreaversl (8.2)BFA
    Save Vol'jin,Kill Orc Soldiers(The Horde is family quest line).MoP

    BfA resembles so much to the plot of Mists of Pandaria, that Blizzard should be ashamed of this.

    and you realize this NOW ? you didnt realize all that small things between the lines, regardless if lore, music, style etc that are THAT obvious MoP‘ish until yet ? ok.

    i can see why blizz used MoP as a base template for BfA. take most parts of the same team. and take good game parts from legion. mix em. legion was succes, MoP was succes, ergo: mix of both is cheap and also success. this is imho the simple mindset behind BfA in irvine.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    A lot of people feel like that. While I don't think that the Alliance will end the Horde, Nelfs might still see revenge but... I will not hold my breath though.
    Yeah, neither will I. I no longer trust Blizz with that. Nelves are the 2nd most popular Alliance race after all, and they are being treated as if they were an enemy npc faction. I even stayed subbed during WoD, but this is just too much.

  12. #132
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    lmao like what? the only shit she did was lose teldrasil and lose Darkshore

    she only got so far because it was Garrosh who pave the path and made everything easy and possible

    Looking what Garrosh did since cata, with little and almost not support from other races comapred to her with full support its laughable.
    She didn't lose Darkshore, she won it. Just because the Night Elves play their little counterattack means little. She completely outsmarted and outplayed the Alliance every step of way? Nearly killed all the main Alliance leaders at the Battle of Lordaeron once they made it into Undercity, and they would've never made it that far without Jaina becoming a SuperHero out of nowhere.

    Garrosh was a laughable warrior with to much Pride and he failed because so, he couldn't even make it through Ashenvale to get to Darkshore...?

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    So Forsaken will be just Lordaeronians but dead, thats my guess as well. They might bring Calia to the Horde/Forsaken (it makes sense she is their TRUE queen) but I think Derek will be there as well, he basically does not have anything to do anyways.
    Derek wants to return to his family. So that sounds unlikely to me.

  14. #134
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    She didn't lose Darkshore, she won it. Just because the Night Elves play their little counterattack means little.
    If she won't it there would not be a warfront there
    She completely outsmarted and outplayed the Alliance every step of way?
    Saurfang did that, cause it was his plan, most of success come from him

    Nearly killed all the main Alliance leaders at the Battle of Lordaeron once they made it into Undercity, and they would've never made it that far without Jaina becoming a SuperHero out of nowhere.
    she only get that far because the alliance were stupid enough to not bring a gas mask, so its balance out.

    Garrosh was a laughable warrior with to much Pride and he failed because so, he couldn't even make it through Ashenvale to get to Darkshore...?
    He did way more than her, again, he did trough ashenvale but with minor support he could not hold it against the alliance who constantly got support, some of then from theramore, thats why he handle with it

    Sylvanas would never get that far with theramore at our door.

  15. #135
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    If we did not had MoP, this sotry would be acceptable, not good (the burning of teldrassil shit was stupid AF) but passable. But with MoP it is downright unacceptable. This is so much bullshit. I'm not going to quit WoW, but this story is definitely made me think about it more than once.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Darklok View Post
    Derek wants to return to his family. So that sounds unlikely to me.
    He can't because he is an undead. The story will be... as undead you belong to other undead. Thats at least my guess.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoggoth View Post
    Edit: Image is too big, I'm gonna use the link

    https://i.imgur.com/A84YIQU.jpg
    This is bad and I hope for your own sake you weren't the one who made it.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    What annoys me the most is that they're pretending this isn't Garrosh 2.0 because Sylvanas wont let herself get captured. As if the most important defining aspect of Garrosh was that he got captured.
    I agree. It's like players say "how is this not like Garrosh 2.0 when v,w,x and y are all the same!" and Blizzard's reply is "but z (being captured to face trial) is different, therefore it's not the same!"

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    This is bad and I hope for your own sake you weren't the one who made it.
    How is it bad? It's right.
    Twas brillig

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Leih View Post
    Well done, you noticed. No one has ever made this comparison before!

    At this point, it's so closely mirrored that it just has to be intentional, which probably means we're in for some sort of stupid twist like "Hah! Gotcha! You thought it was Mists 2.0 but thiiiis time Sylvanas is the one in the right! Take that!"
    Remember how Deathwing was basically Arthas 2.0? Yeah.

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