It Will Be A Different Vanilla

[Gungnir]

Which brings me back to my comment regarding online resources and computers.

1) people will know the fights a lot better today than they did back then. The main reason being the sheer lack of guides for it from different pov on roles or different strats

2) better computers, better latency naturally means better performance. Back then if you had a 40 man team running, the odds were a good portion were lagging or stuttering due to frames. I remember seeing videos about people having to play looking at the ground the entire fight etc.

Both of those are going to cut fight times right back and again naturally better performance. Sure the same applies to the "better" damage dealers and that means they'll down stuff faster again; but what I'm saying is, once it's launched and we're all comfortable at 60, each class will be able to justify being on a team. Course I'm talking from the PoV of wanting to be there and putting the work in

Fights have for sure gotten shorter thanks to the knowledge and amount of min/max we can achieve nowadays, and aswell as some specs having new toys to play with that makes them more viable than ever (looking at your feral with Manual Crowd Pummeler and Wolfshead).
There's only so much you can do however and we've yet to have bossfights down below 5 minutes without being heavily overgeared, so you'll still see some specs struggle a lot.

Of course, there's also the other side of your point in that since we know exactly what to expect and which classes to excel, people might take a stance where they're generally opposed to "non-meta" specs. It's impossible to tell how big of an issue this will be, only time will tell really.

[Tjaz]

No shit sherlock.

[Jazzhands]

Except that's not true either.

I don't disagree with any part of your post and I don't have anything to chime in on except this part.
The current fastest leveling I have seen getting recorded is 2 days and 14 hours IIRC, which was done by a druid. Second fastest was a hunter from what I recall.

So you are correct in your assumption that the fastest levelers aren't mages, they're too limited by mana.

That makes sense, feral druids can get a 30% passive speed boost at 22, with the added benefit of no daze, and no need to stop for HP or mana, and ghetto AoE with multi-dotting. Never really thought about it until now because I've never really played a druid.

But yeah, thank you for backing up my claim that the guy I quoted is talking out his ass, his entire post reeked of elitism and not actually knowing what he was talking about, which I just find to be a hilarious combination for obvious reasons.

[Najnaj]

Except that's not true either.
I'd love to see a druid maintank Patchwerk since, by your logic, it's a physical fight so a druid is the "way to go".

Bottom line being, you can't get defense capped without sacrificing other vital stats.
Sacrifices that warriors didn't have to make.
Which made warriors, in fact, VASTLY superior.

Well, given that this is one fight they really did not change much in WOTLK I must assume that Druids would be the way to go. Not sure why you think druids would have to sacrifice so much and warriors would not. Same can be said for pally tanks towards the end of vanilla.

I assume that the game they will be releasing is one from just before BC so a lot of classes will be viable to do a lot of things. It sounds like you think they will be releasing the first version of the game which is unlikely given how bad it was.

[cparle87]

Rather, the meta has shifted but some classes have areas where they are so INCREDIBLY powerful that you still want to stay in that niche.
Paladin buffs is a good example of that, Blessing of Salvation alone made alliance a lot more efficient and faster when it came to raiding.

Not to mention dwarf priest fear ward in the days when being feared temporarily suppressed all your threat so they either went after your offtank in a raid or your dps in a dungeon.

[Gungnir]

That makes sense, feral druids can get a 30% passive speed boost at 22, with the added benefit of no daze, and no need to stop for HP or mana, and ghetto AoE with multi-dotting. Never really thought about it until now because I've never really played a druid.

But yeah, thank you for backing up my claim that the guy I quoted is talking out his ass, his entire post reeked of elitism and not actually knowing what he was talking about, which I just find to be a hilarious combination for obvious reasons.

Yeah, well played druids are actually considerably strong in nearly every facet of the game, you just don't really think about it because you only see resto druids in raids and whatnot.
I suppose it comes with the territory of being a jack-of-all-trades.

And I just dislike people who shits on other people for enjoying something other than ultra-rushing min/max.

Well, given that this is one fight they really did not change much in WOTLK I must assume that Druids would be the way to go. Not sure why you think druids would have to sacrifice so much and warriors would not. Same can be said for pally tanks towards the end of vanilla.

I assume that the game they will be releasing is one from just before BC so a lot of classes will be viable to do a lot of things. It sounds like you think they will be releasing the first version of the game which is unlikely given how bad it was.

1.12 is NOT the TBC prepatch.
The feral talent tree, outside of Thick Hide and Heart of the Wild, gives NOTHING for tanking. Even in TBC where thanks to better itemization, bears could hit uncrittable without having to sacrifice stamina and avoidance, aswell as resistance not really being a thing anymore, they still weren't the go-to tanks.

In Vanilla, you won't have paladins and druids maintanking because they have far too many drawbacks in comparison to warriors. This has been discussed to death over numerous threads so if you want all the details, feel free to look through the last 3 or so pages of the Classic section.
Long story short, paladin tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to threat issues while also having itemization and mana sustain issues.
Druid tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to not being able to hit uncrittable without heavy sacrifice of other valuable stats, and also cannot at all hit uncrushable which was very much a thing back then.

If you got hit by two crushing blows back-to-back, which did happen from time to time, there's no amount of healing that can save you and you have no defensive cooldown at all to rely upon.
Oh and that's also something to keep in mind, bears had literally no defensive cooldown applicable in those scenarios.

Not to mention dwarf priest fear ward in the days when being feared temporarily suppressed all your threat so they either went after your offtank in a raid or your dps in a dungeon.

That too.
Sure, Tremor totem was great in certain scenarios but to outright block the fear in the first place was stupidly strong.
In fact, it was so strong that undeads are considered one of the best tanking races on Horde, simply for the fear immune racial. Imagine having 4 or 5 of those tools available to healers.

Goddamn Alliance had a good time back then when it came to raiding.

[Cempa]

Yeah, well played druids are actually considerably strong in nearly every facet of the game, you just don't really think about it because you only see resto druids in raids and whatnot.
I suppose it comes with the territory of being a jack-of-all-trades.

And I just dislike people who shits on other people for enjoying something other than ultra-rushing min/max.



1.12 is NOT the TBC prepatch.
The feral talent tree, outside of Thick Hide and Heart of the Wild, gives NOTHING for tanking. Even in TBC where thanks to better itemization, bears could hit uncrittable without having to sacrifice stamina and avoidance, aswell as resistance not really being a thing anymore, they still weren't the go-to tanks.

In Vanilla, you won't have paladins and druids maintanking because they have far too many drawbacks in comparison to warriors. This has been discussed to death over numerous threads so if you want all the details, feel free to look through the last 3 or so pages of the Classic section.
Long story short, paladin tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to threat issues while also having itemization and mana sustain issues.
Druid tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to not being able to hit uncrittable without heavy sacrifice of other valuable stats, and also cannot at all hit uncrushable which was very much a thing back then.

If you got hit by two crushing blows back-to-back, which did happen from time to time, there's no amount of healing that can save you and you have no defensive cooldown at all to rely upon.
Oh and that's also something to keep in mind, bears had literally no defensive cooldown applicable in those scenarios.



That too.
Sure, Tremor totem was great in certain scenarios but to outright block the fear in the first place was stupidly strong.
In fact, it was so strong that undeads are considered one of the best tanking races on Horde, simply for the fear immune racial. Imagine having 4 or 5 of those tools available to healers.

Goddamn Alliance had a good time back then when it came to raiding.

No one is talking about MAINtanking .. We are discussing tanking as in OT or even third raid tank being a druid .. Some encounters you might actually prefer a Druid tank and let the warriors DPS.

[Grimbold21]

I dunno about you guys but the fact that I have over a decade of xp on this game will make me want to try wacky vanilla specs even more, particularly since everything is kinda of restricted today.

The only one I had back then, and truly the main one, was when I joined a raiding guild. My paladin was specced like smth 30 holy and 20ish ret, and my class leader refused to, i dont recall, give me a promotion or gear because I had to spec further into Holy.

[Najnaj]

1.12 is NOT the TBC prepatch.
The feral talent tree, outside of Thick Hide and Heart of the Wild, gives NOTHING for tanking. Even in TBC where thanks to better itemization, bears could hit uncrittable without having to sacrifice stamina and avoidance, aswell as resistance not really being a thing anymore, they still weren't the go-to tanks.

In Vanilla, you won't have paladins and druids maintanking because they have far too many drawbacks in comparison to warriors. This has been discussed to death over numerous threads so if you want all the details, feel free to look through the last 3 or so pages of the Classic section.
Long story short, paladin tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to threat issues while also having itemization and mana sustain issues.
Druid tanks are very suboptimal for maintanking thanks to not being able to hit uncrittable without heavy sacrifice of other valuable stats, and also cannot at all hit uncrushable which was very much a thing back then.

If you got hit by two crushing blows back-to-back, which did happen from time to time, there's no amount of healing that can save you and you have no defensive cooldown at all to rely upon.
Oh and that's also something to keep in mind, bears had literally no defensive cooldown applicable in those scenarios.

I honestly do not remember exactly what happened in 1.12 but I can tell you with 99% certainty that this is not what Classic will be.I know they are basing it around that for content but every patch during Vanilla had massive issues that would make the game unplayable by today's standards. For starters, is this the patch where you would get to WSG and everyone would be a warlock or a shammy? Will you be able to hide under water and drown questers as a druid? Have fear on no cd and no diminishing returns? There will be tweaks.

Is it possible that you are right...yes. I highly doubt it though. I started playing about a month or 2 after game was released and it had glaring problems that would be easily fixed without changing the game experience for anyone.

What I am hoping for is that you are right of sorts and that druids get to be the intended jack of all trades - master of none that they were intended to be and all it would really take for Classic is minor tweaks.

[Maudib]

The highest skilled/knowledgeable players i played with back then were easily above the highest skilled players i play with today. Not because the game was harder (it wasnt), but because it required more overall effort from the players.

Effort does not equal skill. I agree that what makes older WoW raiding exciting is the preparation you needed to do to do well in raiding. Nowadays you just spam some dungeons and world quests and go run into a raid.

The raid encounters themselves though, are more complex and require a higher level of skill. Due to the evr increasing difficulty of raid and dungeon encounters players have become better... thus raising their skill cap.

That's not to say there weren't exceptional players back int he day.. some of which were far better than today's payers... mostly due to the ability prune. But by and large, players today have a higher level of skill than players of 15 years ago.

[Zulatomten]

I love when people cart out private servers as proof given I've yet to see any private server that didn't have some change or problem in their code that made it easier than actual vanilla. One that I dont think any server has got right is resistances, which has made doing damage and taking damage far easier on every single private server.

Surely, private servers are invalid information about everything. Personally, I would not take all the facts and information gathered over a decade ago as the whole truth.

But yes, most private servers base some their information on wrong facts. Like the Warlock demon summoning thing that happened during the Blizzcon Beta. Everything i say that was based on the experienced i had on private server might be entierly false. If it's not as the experiences i had, then whatever, it's most likely isnt as far from the truth as it was back then compared to what people are saying while basing that information on that warped, deformed facts that is a decade old.

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I seriously doubt you played on a server that hadn't adjusted gear values and drop rates. The fucking drop rates in Classic were awful. It would and could take hundreds of dungeons runs to deck a a tank in tier 0.5 and there were hardcore raiders still running around in AQ gear and tier 0.5 pieces by the end of Naxx.

Can't speak much about the Private server's drop rates(because i never looked into it), but that very server emulated the original state and buffed state of both dungeon and raid loot. The server started out with the "nerfed" items from dungeons, quests and raids. And then in a later patch release the items from dungeon, quest and early raids got updated.

Even if Classic has the "nerfed" items at the beginning of release, It doesn't take ages to gear a warrior with Tier.5 or whatever gear they wants. Even if tank gear had the lowest chance to drop. That still doesn't slow them down, realy.

[Animalhouse]

If you actually read what's written in this article you'll realize that he admits that druid tank have significant disadvantages, aka, not being crit immune, having less survivability and being harder to gear up, because he leeches gear from important DPS characters. So, yeah, we already covered it here, you won't see many druid tanks, because you have to, basically, build your raid around it.

It's almost as if YOU are unable to read.

I NEVER said there were not negatives. NEVER ONCE, I said clear AF that a druid would not be a main raid tank.
I am still seeing BS classism from people who think druids cannot tank. I have no clue what you and the OP are arguing with me about. I did not call you out or the other guy out out for making blanket ignorant statements but after seeing both of you talk about druids tanks it is becoming clear that you would be in the camp that deny's a druid tanking for DM or Mara because of sheer ignorance.

I think ultimately there is a HUGE disconnect for many in the classic forums. They have current WoW mindset and cannot shake it. Everything has become endgame to modern players and it is like they cannot think outside of that box. When you see me address a class in classic WoW, I am speaking about the context of vanilla as a whole. For me that just happens to be world content, BG's, lots of 5 mans and an occasional raid. I am not talking about absolutes, min/maxing on all raid bosses because that is all that matters. Because in vanilla that is NOT all that matters.

So be my guest, die on your hill with the rest. I hope as I am leveling that I am denied tanking 5 mans by people like yourself because I have much better shit to do with my time. You and others will see that for a MAJORITY of content (because there is SO much more shit than raiding), that druids are the cats meow and superior for 5/10 mans.

[Charge me Doctor]

It's almost as if YOU are unable to read.

I NEVER said there were not negatives. NEVER ONCE, I said clear AF that a druid would not be a main raid tank.
I am still seeing BS classism from people who think druids cannot tank. I have no clue what you and the OP are arguing with me about. I did not call you out or the other guy out out for making blanket ignorant statements but after seeing both of you talk about druids tanks it is becoming clear that you would be in the camp that deny's a druid tanking for DM or Mara because of sheer ignorance.

I think ultimately there is a HUGE disconnect for many in the classic forums. They have current WoW mindset and cannot shake it. Everything has become endgame to modern players and it is like they cannot think outside of that box. When you see me address a class in classic WoW, I am speaking about the context of vanilla as a whole. For me that just happens to be world content, BG's, lots of 5 mans and an occasional raid. I am not talking about absolutes, min/maxing on all raid bosses because that is all that matters. Because in vanilla that is NOT all that matters.

So be my guest, die on your hill with the rest. I hope as I am leveling that I am denied tanking 5 mans by people like yourself because I have much better shit to do with my time. You and others will see that for a MAJORITY of content (because there is SO much more shit than raiding), that druids are the cats meow and superior for 5/10 mans.

Go back to that article and read it again, i have a feeling that you are seeing only things you want to see and don't see obvious, glaring issues with druid tanking that author laid in front of you.

You make a lot of assumptions that are disjointed from what people are saying.

You also seem to have a delusion, that vanilla was some sort of pug heaven, which brings me back to my point - druid tanks aren't viable, if you wish to tank as a druid you'll be a liability to everyone around, especially to pugs, since you'll more often than not will leech DPS warrior/rogue gear, while warrior tank, on the other hand, won't. In a miraculous case of you just "becoming" a tank druid without notorious grind and fights for loot - guilds will happily recruit you, like any other geared player.

Another point you are not wishing to see is that being a crittable and crushable tank puts extra stress on healers and always have that random chance of you just falling over, many raids won't want that, especially considering alternative of not having a crittable tank, which won't require better geared healers (in case you lack in this compartment, which is likely).

And since you are talking about being "denied" - what do you bring to the table to not be "denied"? If you so inclined on doing pugs - why would a pug group would want you instead of a warrior?
Get in a guild, be nice to people, make friends with officers, make them give you gear over others - that's how you become a druid tank, next step is convincing everyone that dying from a crit into crit on Faerlina is not your fault and they shouldn't just poach another warrior from somebody.

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No one is talking about MAINtanking .. We are discussing tanking as in OT or even third raid tank being a druid .. Some encounters you might actually prefer a Druid tank and let the warriors DPS.

Again, you also have to consider, you know, whole trouble of gearing and actually fielding druid tank over a warrior tank for that specific encounter. Remember the pain and mass poaching of warriors when people realized how many tanks you'll need for horsemen? Off course guilds turned around and started running their DPS warriors through AQ to gear them up as tanks, but it takes ridiculous amount of time, but even that would be faster than fielding a druid tank. Druid tanks don't just randomly appear like it's darkest dungeon, so you go "ohh i'l grab that one!"

[StrawberryZebra]

Alliance's NON-DWARF Priests at the lvl 60 will find out that in order to get into any proper guild(not a casual LFR-type shitshow) they they will suddenly need to become Dwarfs

From those many and frequent arguements my guild used to have in chat which used to go something like this;

Dwarf Priest: I have Fear Ward!
Human Priest: I'm better than you everywhere else!
Night Elf Priest: I have Starshards !

You can also make a pretty strong case for Human Priests too. Outside of times where you need Fear Ward, which is usually just in early raiding, I don't recall it being too prevelent beyond BWL, the extra 5% Spirit Humans get makes them better. Night Elves do get the short end of the stick, but if you really think a guild is going to turn away a skilled Priest just because they're not a Dwarf you're deluding yourself. A guild needs at 2 Dwarves to keep Fear Ward on a tank at almost all times, 3 at the absolute most. You're going to be bringing a lot more than just 2 Priests to a 40 man raid, I assure you.

At the worst end of it, Dwarf Priests are nothing more than a crutch. Horde Warriors managed to tank bosses with fears just fine, there's no reason the Alliance can't do the same.

[Gungnir]

No one is talking about MAINtanking .. We are discussing tanking as in OT or even third raid tank being a druid .. Some encounters you might actually prefer a Druid tank and let the warriors DPS.

The person I was talking to didn't specify anything like that, a druid would work decent as an offtank, especially good if he's soaking Patchwerk cleaves.
My points still stand in regards to people thinking that a druid or a paladin would work as a maintank though, as in they won't work.

I honestly do not remember exactly what happened in 1.12 but I can tell you with 99% certainty that this is not what Classic will be.I know they are basing it around that for content but every patch during Vanilla had massive issues that would make the game unplayable by today's standards. For starters, is this the patch where you would get to WSG and everyone would be a warlock or a shammy? Will you be able to hide under water and drown questers as a druid? Have fear on no cd and no diminishing returns? There will be tweaks.

Is it possible that you are right...yes. I highly doubt it though. I started playing about a month or 2 after game was released and it had glaring problems that would be easily fixed without changing the game experience for anyone.

What I am hoping for is that you are right of sorts and that druids get to be the intended jack of all trades - master of none that they were intended to be and all it would really take for Classic is minor tweaks.

1.12 brought about the rogue rebalancing to make them.. a bit less OP than before, but still quite OP. Had some other things in it aswell, patchnotes can be found in online archives.

However, Classic won't have any tweaks or changes that weren't already in the original datafiles, Blizzard has taken a fairly firm stance on not altering the mechanics of the game.

[Grimreaper]

Effort does not equal skill. I agree that what makes older WoW raiding exciting is the preparation you needed to do to do well in raiding. Nowadays you just spam some dungeons and world quests and go run into a raid.

The raid encounters themselves though, are more complex and require a higher level of skill. Due to the evr increasing difficulty of raid and dungeon encounters players have become better... thus raising their skill cap.

I prefer a WoW less dependant on individual skill though. Not because i lack it, but because i find it more entertaining to do research, theorycrafting and planning. I'm a nerd. Nowadays in WoW you just spam whatever content you can access and cross your fingers for titanforged loot. Skill has become too important in the game.

Blizzard already has a purely skill-based loot-driven game, it's called Diablo 3. I dont know why the insist on making WoW it's clone.

That's not to say there weren't exceptional players back int he day.. some of which were far better than today's payers... mostly due to the ability prune. But by and large, players today have a higher level of skill than players of 15 years ago.

Skill yes, knowledge no. Only at high-end Mythic difficulties, and mostly because the game has become way more focused on end-game content and player inclusion into it.

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I especially like how some snowflakes here deny anything which comes from the private servers and succumbing into "it wasn't like that in the 2005!11111" when the best players from 2005, if they play right now like they did in 2005 won't even get a raid spot in the most of mid-tier guilds.

It's funny that i played almost 400 days in Vanilla, and a couple of years now in private servers. And shock, horror, i havent learned anything new from those private servers. Nobody (exceptions might exist) playing on those servers are sitting on knowledge that i didnt have back in real vanilla. Skill? havent seen much of that either. Yes, they are clearing the raids faster, because they are playing on made up numbers instead of real ones.

[Fascinate]

The person I was talking to didn't specify anything like that, a druid would work decent as an offtank, especially good if he's soaking Patchwerk cleaves.
My points still stand in regards to people thinking that a druid or a paladin would work as a maintank though, as in they won't work.




1.12 brought about the rogue rebalancing to make them.. a bit less OP than before, but still quite OP. Had some other things in it aswell, patchnotes can be found in online archives.

However, Classic won't have any tweaks or changes that weren't already in the original datafiles, Blizzard has taken a fairly firm stance on not altering the mechanics of the game.

Whats funny about that is i started WoW in 2006 and i felt incredibly overpowered as a rogue lol. I think eviscerate scaling more than made up for whatever they lost in 06.

[Gungnir]

Whats funny about that is i started WoW in 2006 and i felt incredibly overpowered as a rogue lol. I think eviscerate scaling more than made up for whatever they lost in 06.

Eviscerate didn't scale, it had static damage.
Which is why the World of Roguecraft videos got made.

The only way to scale Eviscerate damage was with T2.5 from AQ40, the 5set gave a 15% increased Eviscerate damage.
But yeah the tl;dr is that rogues were pretty much overpowered for the entirety of Vanilla.

[Pu3Ho]

I prefer a WoW less dependant on individual skill though. Not because i lack it, but because i find it more entertaining to do research, theorycrafting and planning. I'm a nerd. Nowadays in WoW you just spam whatever content you can access and cross your fingers for titanforged loot. Skill has become too important in the game.

Blizzard already has a purely skill-based loot-driven game, it's called Diablo 3. I dont know why the insist on making WoW it's clone.



Skill yes, knowledge no. Only at high-end Mythic difficulties, and mostly because the game has become way more focused on end-game content and player inclusion into it.

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It's funny that i played almost 400 days in Vanilla, and a couple of years now in private servers. And shock, horror, i havent learned anything new from those private servers. Nobody (exceptions might exist) playing on those servers are sitting on knowledge that i didnt have back in real vanilla. Skill? havent seen much of that either. Yes, they are clearing the raids faster, because they are playing on made up numbers instead of real ones.

Playing on made up numbers instead of real ones? Oh, absolutely yes! KellThuzad for example has 7k armor instead of recently proven 3k which it had @Retail Vanilla. So if anything those guilds who are now speedrunning Naxx in a hour going to do it even faster

[Fascinate]

Eviscerate didn't scale, it had static damage.
Which is why the World of Roguecraft videos got made.

The only way to scale Eviscerate damage was with T2.5 from AQ40, the 5set gave a 15% increased Eviscerate damage.
But yeah the tl;dr is that rogues were pretty much overpowered for the entirety of Vanilla.

Nah it was changed in late vanilla,
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.12.0
Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

I remember this like it was yesterday, and how happy i was to get the rank 9 manual to drop as well

This is why i find it so funny to see private server people saying rogues arent strong in 1.12, my legit vanilla experience seems to differ from the private server meta. 21/3/27 was such an overpowered pvp spec (duels mainly, otherwise i went 21/0/30 to max out deadliness) i cannot wait to play it again in classic lol.