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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Eviscerate didn't scale, it had static damage.
    Which is why the World of Roguecraft videos got made.

    The only way to scale Eviscerate damage was with T2.5 from AQ40, the 5set gave a 15% increased Eviscerate damage.
    But yeah the tl;dr is that rogues were pretty much overpowered for the entirety of Vanilla.
    Nah it was changed in late vanilla,
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.12.0
    Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

    I remember this like it was yesterday, and how happy i was to get the rank 9 manual to drop as well

    This is why i find it so funny to see private server people saying rogues arent strong in 1.12, my legit vanilla experience seems to differ from the private server meta. 21/3/27 was such an overpowered pvp spec (duels mainly, otherwise i went 21/0/30 to max out deadliness) i cannot wait to play it again in classic lol.
    Last edited by Fascinate; 2019-04-25 at 06:19 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    1.12 brought about the rogue rebalancing to make them.. a bit less OP than before, but still quite OP. Had some other things in it aswell, patchnotes can be found in online archives.

    However, Classic won't have any tweaks or changes that weren't already in the original datafiles, Blizzard has taken a fairly firm stance on not altering the mechanics of the game.
    So as the OP class of the moment wrecks havoc in every pvp scenario Blizz will have a firm stance as bits of their game becomes unplayable....

    Also, rogues were not particularly OP at any point during Vanilla for anything other than dueling. A lock down spec hit for nothing and it took forever to kill anyone. Shammys and locks on the other hand ...

    Trust me on this one, they will not keep class balance to one specific patch when they can do it much better and no one will care.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    So as the OP class of the moment wrecks havoc in every pvp scenario Blizz will have a firm stance as bits of their game becomes unplayable....

    Also, rogues were not particularly OP at any point during Vanilla for anything other than dueling. A lock down spec hit for nothing and it took forever to kill anyone. Shammys and locks on the other hand ...

    Trust me on this one, they will not keep class balance to one specific patch when they can do it much better and no one will care.
    "aside from dueling".

    Did you play vanilla lol? Dueling is the endgame pvp activity, it was incredibly popular and the best test of skill we had. This was especially true in actual 1.12 (and maybe prior) because of a bug that allowed you to start duels in ironforge outside the bank behind the pillar. Of all the bugs blizz should reimplement, this one needs to be at the tip top of that list.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    So as the OP class of the moment wrecks havoc in every pvp scenario Blizz will have a firm stance as bits of their game becomes unplayable....

    Also, rogues were not particularly OP at any point during Vanilla for anything other than dueling. A lock down spec hit for nothing and it took forever to kill anyone. Shammys and locks on the other hand ...

    Trust me on this one, they will not keep class balance to one specific patch when they can do it much better and no one will care.
    Preeeeeeeeeetty sure they were the best at everything it did, damage. It was one of top dps of the raid and killed anything that it looked at in PvP. I have no clue where you're getting this "hit for nothing and took forever to kill anyone" scenario from. Unless you think stun locking something to death is slow? Shamans could oneshot people but this is wholly based on RNG and wasn't consistent. Warlocks fear/succubus charmed you to death which i dont find any different than rogue stun locking to death so i dont see your point here.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

  5. #205
    Its private servers, their numbers are all wrong. I remember getting my first 3k eviscerate in 1.12 with blue gear...

  6. #206
    Pandaren Monk Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Nah it was changed in late vanilla,
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.12.0
    Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

    I remember this like it was yesterday, and how happy i was to get the rank 9 manual to drop as well

    This is why i find it so funny to see private server people saying rogues arent strong in 1.12, my legit vanilla experience seems to differ from the private server meta. 21/3/27 was such an overpowered pvp spec (duels mainly, otherwise i went 21/0/30 to max out deadliness) i cannot wait to play it again in classic lol.
    Static as in it didn't scale with agility or attack power, and only from combo points itself and 5set T2.5.
    I'm pretty sure they didn't change that until BC rolled around, though I am not entirely certain as I mained a warlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    So as the OP class of the moment wrecks havoc in every pvp scenario Blizz will have a firm stance as bits of their game becomes unplayable....

    Also, rogues were not particularly OP at any point during Vanilla for anything other than dueling. A lock down spec hit for nothing and it took forever to kill anyone. Shammys and locks on the other hand ...

    Trust me on this one, they will not keep class balance to one specific patch when they can do it much better and no one will care.
    Wut.
    Did you even play Vanilla? Rogues were by far the most crazy powerful class in every part of the game.
    Secondly, the "lock down spec" did hit for something. About 1700 to 2k per Eviscerate crit, in grey gear.. with a lvl 1 vendor dagger. There's an entire video series about just that.

    Warlocks didn't even get "OP" until the 1.6 talent tree revamp along with warriors.
    Shamans were only OP in PvP thanks to utility and interrupts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Its private servers, their numbers are all wrong. I remember getting my first 3k eviscerate in 1.12 with blue gear...
    Are you talking about private servers or vanilla?
    Because you for sure didn't get a 3k Eviscerate crit in Vanilla without the mob having some sort of massive damage taken modifier if you had blue gear.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    "aside from dueling".

    Did you play vanilla lol? Dueling is the endgame pvp activity, it was incredibly popular and the best test of skill we had. This was especially true in actual 1.12 (and maybe prior) because of a bug that allowed you to start duels in ironforge outside the bank behind the pillar. Of all the bugs blizz should reimplement, this one needs to be at the tip top of that list.
    It was not....

    WoW was never balanced around 1v1 and dueling is not at all a test of skill unless you went up against someone you were well balanced with.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Static as in it didn't scale with agility or attack power, and only from combo points itself and 5set T2.5.
    I'm pretty sure they didn't change that until BC rolled around, though I am not entirely certain as I mained a warlock.


    Wut.
    Did you even play Vanilla? Rogues were by far the most crazy powerful class in every part of the game.
    Secondly, the "lock down spec" did hit for something. About 1700 to 2k per Eviscerate crit, in grey gear.. with a lvl 1 vendor dagger. There's an entire video series about just that.

    Warlocks didn't even get "OP" until the 1.6 talent tree revamp along with warriors.
    Shamans were only OP in PvP thanks to utility and interrupts.



    Are you talking about private servers or vanilla?
    Because you for sure didn't get a 3k Eviscerate crit in Vanilla without the mob having some sort of massive damage taken modifier if you had blue gear.
    Are you ok? I literally linked you the 1.12 patch notes lol.
    Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

    And that 3k evis was in blue pvp gear on a mage in arathi basin, i remember it very clearly. Once i got the GM gear in the 2.0 patch i think i was critting nearly for 4k on mages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    It was not....

    WoW was never balanced around 1v1 and dueling is not at all a test of skill unless you went up against someone you were well balanced with.
    WoW was ALWAYS balanced around 1v1, they literally made pvp trinkets to counter specific classes lol.

    These forum goers (private server plebs) get a big yikers from me.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Multitorix Davlen View Post
    Preeeeeeeeeetty sure they were the best at everything it did, damage. It was one of top dps of the raid and killed anything that it looked at in PvP. I have no clue where you're getting this "hit for nothing and took forever to kill anyone" scenario from. Unless you think stun locking something to death is slow? Shamans could oneshot people but this is wholly based on RNG and wasn't consistent. Warlocks fear/succubus charmed you to death which i dont find any different than rogue stun locking to death so i dont see your point here.
    Combat daggers were top dps in raids... and unplayable outside of raids. You could spec tor endless stunn in which case you could lock someone down til they were dead which took quite some time given that you hit for nearly nothing. This is why I said it was powerful for dueling but worthless for most other scenarios as the moment they got company you were toast. The difference with the shammy/lock issue what they it worked in a BG and not sure why you mentioned charm as it was not needed. Fear had no diminishing return in pvp nor did the shammy slows. A shammy could dance around you with a 2 hander kiting, healing and waiting for a procc...at which point you were dead. Rogues were on and off quite strong in vanilla but all in all really nothing over the top.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post

    WoW was ALWAYS balanced around 1v1, they literally made pvp trinkets to counter specific classes lol.

    These forum goers (private server plebs) get a big yikers from me.
    Blizzard specifically tells us over and over again that the game is not balanced for 1v1. It always was and it still is this way. Some classes will always have an advantage over other classes.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Go back to that article and read it again, i have a feeling that you are seeing only things you want to see and don't see obvious, glaring issues with druid tanking that author laid in front of you.

    You make a lot of assumptions that are disjointed from what people are saying.

    You also seem to have a delusion, that vanilla was some sort of pug heaven, which brings me back to my point - druid tanks aren't viable, if you wish to tank as a druid you'll be a liability to everyone around, especially to pugs, since you'll more often than not will leech DPS warrior/rogue gear, while warrior tank, on the other hand, won't. In a miraculous case of you just "becoming" a tank druid without notorious grind and fights for loot - guilds will happily recruit you, like any other geared player.

    Another point you are not wishing to see is that being a crittable and crushable tank puts extra stress on healers and always have that random chance of you just falling over, many raids won't want that, especially considering alternative of not having a crittable tank, which won't require better geared healers (in case you lack in this compartment, which is likely).

    And since you are talking about being "denied" - what do you bring to the table to not be "denied"? If you so inclined on doing pugs - why would a pug group would want you instead of a warrior?
    Get in a guild, be nice to people, make friends with officers, make them give you gear over others - that's how you become a druid tank, next step is convincing everyone that dying from a crit into crit on Faerlina is not your fault and they shouldn't just poach another warrior from somebody.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, you also have to consider, you know, whole trouble of gearing and actually fielding druid tank over a warrior tank for that specific encounter. Remember the pain and mass poaching of warriors when people realized how many tanks you'll need for horsemen? Off course guilds turned around and started running their DPS warriors through AQ to gear them up as tanks, but it takes ridiculous amount of time, but even that would be faster than fielding a druid tank. Druid tanks don't just randomly appear like it's darkest dungeon, so you go "ohh i'l grab that one!"
    bro you're arguing with a guy called Animalhouse that wants to play a humanoid that can shapeshift into different animal forms. His bias is immense, he's probably just another furry.

    I actually feel a little sad for the people that think prot paladins or feral druids are competitive choices for a tank. They're in for a rude awakening and some of them are just a lost cause. I wouldn't bother with them at this point.
    Last edited by tikcol; 2019-04-25 at 07:25 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Did you even play Vanilla? Rogues were by far the most crazy powerful class in every part of the game.
    Secondly, the "lock down spec" did hit for something. About 1700 to 2k per Eviscerate crit, in grey gear.. with a lvl 1 vendor dagger. There's an entire video series about just that.

    Warlocks didn't even get "OP" until the 1.6 talent tree revamp along with warriors.
    Shamans were only OP in PvP thanks to utility and interrupts.
    I very much did but I don't think you did if this is what you think mattered. Slows, healing and proccs made shammys and no diminishing return on fear made locks.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Are you ok? I literally linked you the 1.12 patch notes lol.
    Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

    And that 3k evis was in blue pvp gear on a mage in arathi basin, i remember it very clearly. Once i got the GM gear in the 2.0 patch i think i was critting nearly for 4k on mages.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoW was ALWAYS balanced around 1v1, they literally made pvp trinkets to counter specific classes lol.

    These forum goers (private server plebs) get a big yikers from me.
    That didnt come til later, classic wow was a 1v1 balanced game in regards to pvp. Rock paper scissors my guy.

  13. #213
    Pandaren Monk Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Are you ok? I literally linked you the 1.12 patch notes lol.
    Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.

    And that 3k evis was in blue pvp gear on a mage in arathi basin, i remember it very clearly. Once i got the GM gear in the 2.0 patch i think i was critting nearly for 4k on mages.
    So uh, want to explain how you could in "blue PvP armor" crit for 3k when Grim in his Total Annihilation video, with T2 and T2.5 mixed pieces, with a Misplaced Servo Arm and Hemo spec crit for 2668 on a clothie?



    Something isn't adding up here bud, and I doubt it's the video evidence from back in 2006.


    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    I very much did but I don't think you did if this is what you think mattered. Slows, healing and proccs made shammys and no diminishing return on fear made locks.
    You do realize that your godtier shaman bonuses literally only worked against warriors as shamans would die in a stun and every other ranged class would just drop them before they could get a cast off if they were any decent.
    And sure, warlocks didn't have diminishing returns on fear, still meant that a rogue would have to fuck up immensely to allow the warlock to get a fear off.

    Shamans and warlocks weren't OP by comparison, unless you specifically specced SL lock to be a tank.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    So uh, want to explain how you could in "blue PvP armor" crit for 3k when Grim in his Total Annihilation video, with T2 and T2.5 mixed pieces, with a Misplaced Servo Arm and Hemo spec crit for 2668 on a clothie?



    Something isn't adding up here bud, and I doubt it's the video evidence from back in 2006.




    You do realize that your godtier shaman bonuses literally only worked against warriors as shamans would die in a stun and every other ranged class would just drop them before they could get a cast off if they were any decent.
    And sure, warlocks didn't have diminishing returns on fear, still meant that a rogue would have to fuck up immensely to allow the warlock to get a fear off.

    Shamans and warlocks weren't OP by comparison, unless you specifically specced SL lock to be a tank.
    Are you really not going to admit you were wrong about eviscerate scaling from attack power in 1.12? Also blue pvp gear wasnt crap in 1.12, probably wasnt far behind bloodfang in overall AP and i might have had similar attack power to grim when specced 21/0//30 (which i did for bg;s, he was missing 6% attack power in that video as he had improved gouge).

    Also, are you watching the part where he actually specs into hemo lol? The first evis he presses is 2920.
    Last edited by Fascinate; 2019-04-25 at 07:49 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    You do realize that your godtier shaman bonuses literally only worked against warriors as shamans would die in a stun and every other ranged class would just drop them before they could get a cast off if they were any decent.
    And sure, warlocks didn't have diminishing returns on fear, still meant that a rogue would have to fuck up immensely to allow the warlock to get a fear off.

    Shamans and warlocks weren't OP by comparison, unless you specifically specced SL lock to be a tank.
    Get a cast off? You do realize that we are talking enhancement with a 2h equipped right? As for rogues and stunnlock, It has already been addressed. It was powerful in a 1v1 scenario and even the famous 2 rusty nails video was staged to pull this off. It did not work in group pvp which is what you wanted to get gear.

    also, locks could literally handle 3 people and comfortably kill all 3 at one point. Succy, fear and CoE. SL/SL specs were just a cherry on top of a very big cake of whopass. THis is one specific patch btw...there is another patch where locks are basically free honor. Hunters are the same...they go from really OP to totally worthless and back again.

    My point here is that every single patch in Vanilla had massive balance problems and if Classic goes live like that as you think it will it is doomed. It might have been accepted at the early days of WoW but not today.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Najnaj View Post
    Get a cast off? You do realize that we are talking enhancement with a 2h equipped right? As for rogues and stunnlock, It has already been addressed. It was powerful in a 1v1 scenario and even the famous 2 rusty nails video was staged to pull this off. It did not work in group pvp which is what you wanted to get gear.

    also, locks could literally handle 3 people and comfortably kill all 3 at one point. Succy, fear and CoE. SL/SL specs were just a cherry on top of a very big cake of whopass. THis is one specific patch btw...there is another patch where locks are basically free honor. Hunters are the same...they go from really OP to totally worthless and back again.

    My point here is that every single patch in Vanilla had massive balance problems and if Classic goes live like that as you think it will it is doomed. It might have been accepted at the early days of WoW but not today.
    Enhance is so inferior to Ele it's ridiculous though.
    Warlocks were good from 1.6 onwards, there weren't patches were they "suddenly became free honor".

    I'm not sure what game you were playing but it clearly wasn't WoW.
    SL/SL didn't exist until TBC by the way, thought I'd point that out since I'm fairly sure you had no idea.

  17. #217
    Did blizzard confirm that it was going to be 1.12? Because if it is that patch fixed a few of the hybrid classes.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    Did blizzard confirm that it was going to be 1.12? Because if it is that patch fixed a few of the hybrid classes.
    It is going to use the 1.12 patch data, so a lot of classes aren't going to completely garbage anymore.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    It is going to use the 1.12 patch data, so a lot of classes aren't going to completely garbage anymore.
    RIP pure vanilla. But also I might actually give it a go because i can play a druid in a raid without being an innervate bot

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Enhance is so inferior to Ele it's ridiculous though.
    Warlocks were good from 1.6 onwards, there weren't patches were they "suddenly became free honor".

    I'm not sure what game you were playing but it clearly wasn't WoW.
    SL/SL didn't exist until TBC by the way, thought I'd point that out since I'm fairly sure you had no idea.


    This is a 2h enhance shammy in 1.12.1

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