It Will Be A Different Vanilla

[Najnaj]

You're the one who made the claim.

It's your job to back up your claims with evidence.



There's literally 0 leather gear with defense on it, you would need to get a full set of "Of Defense" greens to even come close to +140, and with that you would have no other stats.

lol..back up my claims .... yeah, let me dig up my old tank set, be back in a week. Half the slots are shared between all specs so how about you work on those.. and yes, I would expect to have to fill in with one or 2 of defense. The thing with druid tanks was that it ws less of an issue as we had vastly bigger health pools and armor. I never tanked AQ40 of Naxx o my druid but I remember the first time I died from not having worn a max defense set equipped, it was in BC. That melee dude before Gruul. I assume I must have worn it on occasion before that as I remember collecting one but again, it really was not a huge deal unless you were doing serious progression min maxing.

[Charge me Doctor]

Ive seen that in heroics.......but I doubt it would work in Classic.

It would work, considering huge gear inflation and private servers being private servers in general

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lol..back up my claims .... yeah, let me dig up my old tank set, be back in a week. Half the slots are shared between all specs so how about you work on those.. and yes, I would expect to have to fill in with one or 2 of defense. The thing with druid tanks was that it ws less of an issue as we had vastly bigger health pools and armor. I never tanked AQ40 of Naxx o my druid but I remember the first time I died from not having worn a max defense set equipped, it was in BC. That melee dude before Gruul. I assume I must have worn it on occasion before that as I remember collecting one but again, it really was not a huge deal unless you were doing serious progression min maxing.

All serious vanilla players had their BiS/wanted/current sets in a spreadsheet. But anyways, if you claim something and can't back it up - be ready for it to be called bullshit.

And speaking of health pools - you have a chance to get hit for 200% of boss damage, and increased chance to take 150% of boss damage, while also retaining an ability to get extra hits in your face from parry AND you lack any defensive cooldowns. Extra health and armour simply doesn't cut it, you have to cover your weaknesses by having shorter fights and better geared healers.

[anon5123]

its gear that should of been there in vanilla like pally healing plate, vanilla will last even less if people cant play the classes they enjoy instead of being forced into the meta. Vanilla will never be true unless they launched it from the first patch.

Thanks for confirming that you're entirely missing the point of what Classic is supposed to be.

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lol..back up my claims ....

So you're making a claim and refusing to provide evidence to back it up. Okay thanks

[Najnaj]

It would work, considering huge gear inflation and private servers being private servers in general

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All serious vanilla players had their BiS/wanted/current sets in a spreadsheet. But anyways, if you claim something and can't back it up - be ready for it to be called bullshit.

And speaking of health pools - you have a chance to get hit for 200% of boss damage, and increased chance to take 150% of boss damage, while also retaining an ability to get extra hits in your face from parry AND you lack any defensive cooldowns. Extra health and armour simply doesn't cut it, you have to cover your weaknesses by having shorter fights and better geared healers.

...did they now...lol I am sure there is a word for people who keep spreadsheets around for their vanilla tank set from 10 years ago but I am not sure serious is the word we are looking for.

So to clarify, you are claiming that druids were not viable tanks in Vanilla even though we have plenty of examples of druids successfully tanking in Vanilla?

Druids could not parry but they had more dodge. They had more armor, better aggro and more hp but no, they could not tank....

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Thanks for confirming that you're entirely missing the point of what Classic is supposed to be.

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So you're making a claim and refusing to provide evidence to back it up. Okay thanks

Yeah love, I am "refusing" to prove what my capped tank set was from 10 years ago.

Seriously, wtf is wrong with people in this thread?

[-aiko-]

So to clarify, you are claiming that druids were not viable tanks in Vanilla even though we have plenty of examples of druids successfully tanking in Vanilla?

Care to share any examples of Druids successfully tanking during progression?

No one gives a shit if a Druid is able to tank a farm boss after being fed very specific gear with an overgeared raid group. You want a Warrior for progression. Period.

[Jazzhands]

Yeah love, I am "refusing" to prove what my capped tank set was from 10 years ago.

Seriously, wtf is wrong with people in this thread?

There are plenty of 1.12 databases still around. It wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to dig around and find the items and put a list together. The fact that this is seemingly too much work for you is why you're getting the hate, you need to prove your own claims but don't want to put even a minimal amount of effort into it, which is why people don't believe you.

When you make a claim but can't back it up, don't be surprised when people call you out, especially when it's so easy to prove or disprove.

[Charge me Doctor]

...did they now...lol I am sure there is a word for people who keep spreadsheets around for their vanilla tank set from 10 years ago but I am not sure serious is the word we are looking for.

So to clarify, you are claiming that druids were not viable tanks in Vanilla even though we have plenty of examples of druids successfully tanking in Vanilla?

Druids could not parry but they had more dodge. They had more armor, better aggro and more hp but no, they could not tank....

Yes, i do claim that druids weren't viable tanks in vanilla, because some people made it work it doesn't mean that they are viable. Again, to actually make a druid tank work you have to take a lot of risks and dedicate, basically, part of your guild to build such a tank at expense of DPS players. Some players dedicating obscene amount of time, and talking players into taking unnecessary risks doesn't make tanking druids viable by any stretch of imagination.

Having more armour and more HP doesn't matter if you get crushed and critted, and having lots of avoidance only makes life of healers harder, because of all that spike damage you take. Better aggro doesn't matter unless most of your DPS sit at 90% of tanks threat for whole fight.

And it's funny to me how you juggle definitions between "cannot" and "viable". Even a priest can tank with inner fire build if you wish to ridicule this argument this much

[tikcol]

Animalhouse was my hunters name. My original vanilla/BC main. My druid has a completely different name. I have had the name on these forums since 2008 because that was and many still call me (actually Animal). Anamalhouse was not because I was into furrys but because I was a bit of a party animal...hence the movie reference.

I will not be in for a rude awakening because I tank in feral on an unamed vanilla server now just fine and test out various combinations of talents and gear in my own offline version. There is no bias because I know wtf I am talking about as opposed to someone like yourself who is drawing on 14 year old false memories.

Seriously, why do so many of you just talk out of your ass with these false absolutes?!

Ye, what's your name on that server? Don't be shy now

[kenn9530]

Thanks for confirming that you're entirely missing the point of what Classic is supposed to be.

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So you're making a claim and refusing to provide evidence to back it up. Okay thanks

and you have missed the point that your not getting an actual classic, your getting the patch right before tbc so players wont get the experience of leveling and playing without all the changes that came throughout. A patch that lasted 3 months is not vanilla.

Classic is classic argument is BS since thats not what your getting.

[Misuteri]

I want to know how many people need to be in T3 before Naxx is on farm.

[Najnaj]

Care to share any examples of Druids successfully tanking during progression?

No one gives a shit if a Druid is able to tank a farm boss after being fed very specific gear with an overgeared raid group. You want a Warrior for progression. Period.

I never claimed they were the min maxing main tank of choice for their tanking abilities. That would be a warrior. I claimed that they were VIABLE, and they come with a lot of added bonuses depending on which patch you are talking about and what exact the new Classic will include. Druids were sought after add tanks due to innervate for example and came with a unique aura.

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Yes, i do claim that druids weren't viable tanks in vanilla, because some people made it work it doesn't mean that they are viable. Again, to actually make a druid tank work you have to take a lot of risks and dedicate, basically, part of your guild to build such a tank at expense of DPS players. Some players dedicating obscene amount of time, and talking players into taking unnecessary risks doesn't make tanking druids viable by any stretch of imagination.

Having more armour and more HP doesn't matter if you get crushed and critted, and having lots of avoidance only makes life of healers harder, because of all that spike damage you take. Better aggro doesn't matter unless most of your DPS sit at 90% of tanks threat for whole fight.

And it's funny to me how you juggle definitions between "cannot" and "viable". Even a priest can tank with inner fire build if you wish to ridicule this argument this much

That is exactly what viable means ....

They were not the OPTIMAL main tank but a raid group had several tanks in Vanilla. Also, a priest can not tank with an inner fire build even if it has been done on one occasion if I remember right (Onyxia??) by having an entire raid auto attacking not to pull aggro.

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There are plenty of 1.12 databases still around. It wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to dig around and find the items and put a list together. The fact that this is seemingly too much work for you is why you're getting the hate, you need to prove your own claims but don't want to put even a minimal amount of effort into it, which is why people don't believe you.

When you make a claim but can't back it up, don't be surprised when people call you out, especially when it's so easy to prove or disprove.

https://www.warcrafttavern.com/guide...ng-in-vanilla/

Here you go....

Now remove an item of your choice and replace it with a green defense item. Weapons and OH are a good choice as their itemization meant little to druids.Not sure why people are arguing this stupid idea as it is so obviously possible with a little sacrifice. Was it the best tank set, NO, was it defense capped for that one fight where you really needed it, Yes. I can also honestly say that I do not think I ever used it in Vanilla for any more reason than to show my raid lead that I had it. The one time I did need it was in BC at Gruul's Lair.

[Animalhouse]

Care to share any examples of Druids successfully tanking during progression?

No one gives a shit if a Druid is able to tank a farm boss after being fed very specific gear with an overgeared raid group. You want a Warrior for progression. Period.

Really Aiko, now you are getting in on this? You of all people should know quite well what druids were CAPABLE of tanking.

Again, NOBODY is talking about feral main tanking guild progression or much past MC. I swear you people have minds like a pit bull.
A feral is top notch 5/10 man tank and a great versatile OFF TANK for raids. Yet many of you keep this laser endgame focus to judge feral viability.
It is narrow minded and ignorant. This whole argument is being created by by people with a morbid fascination to hate on ferals.
This all has become one big strawman argument.

[Tekkommo]

What the fuck is "dual wield fury tank"?

That's not a thing. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works!

It is on private servers, had one of our tanks do it. At first I was thinking wtf are they doing.

In vanilla, my GM was a bear tank, all the way up to AQ40 (around twin emps), when he switched to healer because Warriors were just much better and he may as well heal to be more useful.

[Otaka]

Yes, you can kill everything with almost any setup, it's just a matter of time and especially gear which you would need to do it. Like i said guilds with the name "We take into a raid anyone and any spec and any class - join us" will be farming AQ20 and telling everyone about how hard Classic Content is ;D

While in the meantime proper guilds who actually don't waste their time on inviting and gearing inefficient and mostly stupid players who simply refuse to play optimal and moreover KNOWN and CONFIRMED to be better than other options stuff - will be farming Naxx.

It's always a choice, be happy noob who takes months to lvl up and "enjoys the journey"(quits around lvl 40) while playing his rpally or aoe farm on frost mage get 60 in 50-55hours and clear MC on the next day after that for the next 4months or so, plays 5-6h/w with ~2 of them is to clear MC and another 4 is to farm some gold for consumables in the DM/Mara/OpenWorld on elites or where you want.

Wait what?
Do you seriously think that vanilla raids are so hard you cannot complete them all without being the optimal class/race combination?

Never heard that one before... its mostly the opposite. People who were legit farming naxx back in the day didnt gear "inefficiently" nor were they stupid either... but they knew that skill > race+class-combination.

Its really some next level elitism if you think simply playing your class well and optimally isnt enough if you dont have the correct race.
Everyone who knows atleast a little bit about classic know that races only provide minor bonuses such as humans having minuscule amount of more dps, in general, than other warriors because they had sword/mace racials and swords were the most common weapon drops in raids. But by no means were classic raids as enrage intensive as retail.


Lets get back to dwarf priests... your claiming its SO "important" to have fear ward aka all priests should be dwarves... but how useful will fear ward actually be? how many bosses in classic raid content even do fear? And how many of them cannot be avoided in other ways.

Correct me if im wrong but there are 63 bosses in classic, 5 of which have fear. So in 58 bosses fear ward is useless.

So in general having one dwarf priest in the raid is enough... since maintank is the only one who really needs it. If you have more... congratz it will help on those FIVE bosses.
I highly doubt blizzard designed the bosses for fear ward so they are very much doable without one... just needs a little bit more of that rare "skill". :P
And fear ward doesnt mean your character can have less gear than other priests, thats just stupid way of thinking.

Also if you spent any time looking at real vanilla world first guilds you would notice they didnt stack dwarf priests. As the screenshot i show proves... if that guild isnt convincing for you then go and watch some Death n Taxes-boss kills... they were legit world first naxxramas raiders back in the day, competing against Nihilum.

[The-loon]

Wait what?
Do you seriously think that vanilla raids are so hard you cannot complete them all without being the optimal class/race combination?

Never heard that one before... its mostly the opposite. People who were legit farming naxx back in the day didnt gear "inefficiently" nor were they stupid either... but they knew that skill > race+class-combination.

Its really some next level elitism if you think simply playing your class well and optimally isnt enough if you dont have the correct race.
Everyone who knows atleast a little bit about classic know that races only provide minor bonuses such as humans having minuscule amount of more dps, in general, than other warriors because they had sword/mace racials and swords were the most common weapon drops in raids. But by no means were classic raids as enrage intensive as retail.


Lets get back to dwarf priests... your claiming its SO "important" to have fear ward aka all priests should be dwarves... but how useful will fear ward actually be? how many bosses in classic raid content even do fear? And how many of them cannot be avoided in other ways.

Correct me if im wrong but there are 63 bosses in classic, 5 of which have fear. So in 58 bosses fear ward is useless.

So in general having one dwarf priest in the raid is enough... since maintank is the only one who really needs it. If you have more... congratz it will help on those FIVE bosses.
I highly doubt blizzard designed the bosses for fear ward so they are very much doable without one... just needs a little bit more of that rare "skill". :P

Also if you spent any time looking at real vanilla world first guilds you would notice they didnt stack dwarf priests. As the screenshot i show proves... if that guild isnt convincing for you then go and watch some Death n Taxes-boss kills... they were legit world first naxxramas raiders back in the day, competing against Nihilum.

In Classic when people created characters originally there was little to no understanding of how racials would work in a PvE environment. There are specific reasons why if youre alliance and want to play a priest you should be a dwarf. If you apply to a guild that has decent knowledge of vanilla as a human priest and there’s also a dwarf priest applicant I’d wager a bet that 9/10 times the dwarf would be taken because of the extra raid utility they bring. Are human priests useless, no, but they aren’t as good as dwarfs. Can you clear all content without a dwarf priest, absolutely, but if you’re an alliance priest and a true min/max person you should be a dwarf.

Youre argument about above stating human warrior ‘provides a miniscule amount of extra DPS’ is simply not true. Going human/orc will increase your DPS a lot even at low gear levels and become increasingly more noticeable as you get more gear (same applies for threat generation as a tank).

You have a 5.6% (+19% if dual wielding on white swings for DW) base chance to miss an attack. The miss formula for melee is Base miss chance + (weapon skill difference +10) *0.4 -10. Bosses are level 63 therefore wep skill difference is -15. Long story long at 300 weapon skill you’ll have an 8.6% (27.6% DW) chance to miss. At 305 weapon skill it lowers to 6.6% chance to miss (25.6% with DW).

Furthermore you have a 40% chance to glancing blow with white attacks, this cannot be changed or lowered however weapon skill increases the damage a glancing blow does. At 300 weapon skill glancing blows deal 65% damage. At 305 weapon skill they do 85% damage. When you combine this with your chance to miss you will generate way more rage as orc/human, do more dmg with white attacks, and therefore do way more DPS. Not to mention giving a night elf warrior a mace or sword over a warrior would be a DPS loss for the guild since NE has 5 less weapon skill racially. Classic is not retail wow. If you want to play a certain class there IS a racial you should pick to support it.

I can’t speak for member of death and taxes and similar vanilla guilds and their specific knowledge base of mathematical interaction to things like weapon skill etc. However I can speak for community knowledge now. Based on the years of work the private server community has put into min/max of vanilla is naive to say that a guild like Death and Taxes Nihilum or a similar environment wouldn’t have all their warriors go orc/human or priests for dwarf, etc today.

[Charge me Doctor]

I If you apply to a guild that has decent knowledge of vanilla as a human priest and there’s also a dwarf priest applicant I’d wager a bet that 9/10 times the dwarf would be taken because of the extra raid utility they bring.

No, the priest with better gear would be taken. Or both. You never had "too many healers" for raiding in vanilla

[-aiko-]

Really Aiko, now you are getting in on this?

I'm taking a hard stance on this one because a lot of this discussion is spreading false information and expectations. If you want to join a progression raiding guild for classic it just isn't a good idea to choose a feral tank.

If you just want to have some fun with friends and tank the occasional dungeon that's fine. If you are a healer main with tons of gold who has picked up some gear during progression, and wants to tank farm raids, go for it. I support you.

Just don't go into classic wanting to main a feral tank for serious content. That's really all people are trying to say.

[Grimreaper]

I'm taking a hard stance on this one because a lot of this discussion is spreading false information and expectations. If you want to join a progression raiding guild for classic it just isn't a good idea to choose a feral tank.

If you just want to have some fun with friends and tank the occasional dungeon that's fine. If you are a healer main with tons of gold who has picked up some gear during progression, and wants to tank farm raids, go for it. I support you.

Just don't go into classic wanting to main a feral tank for serious content. That's really all people are trying to say.

You need to realise that nobody back in vanilla ever joined a guild as a "feral tank" or as a "shadow priest" or as a "elemental shaman" or as a "fury warrior". They joined as the class with all specs and roles they could potentially fill with it, not as the spec/role they most desired to play. If you played a druid in any serious guild, you were expected to heal, dps or sometimes tank.

[Has lost its way]

You need to realise that nobody back in vanilla ever joined a guild as a "feral tank" or as a "shadow priest" or as a "elemental shaman" or as a "fury warrior". They joined as the class with all specs and roles they could potentially fill with it, not as the spec/role they most desired to play. If you played a druid in any serious guild, you were expected to heal, dps or sometimes tank.

You were never expected to tank and to be honest you really only did dmg if you wanted to go farm...

Guilds mostly took warm bodies for the most part unless you were in the minuscule progression groups. If your goal is to clear naxx I wouldn't be expecting to break the mold or for that matter play a hunter.

[-aiko-]

You need to realise that nobody back in vanilla ever joined a guild as a "feral tank" or as a "shadow priest" or as a "elemental shaman" or as a "fury warrior". They joined as the class with all specs and roles they could potentially fill with it, not as the spec/role they most desired to play. If you played a druid in any serious guild, you were expected to heal, dps or sometimes tank.

Not really. You couldn't just swap specs on the fly like you can now. You generally had one role you were expected to perform, particularly if you were a hybrid.