It Will Be A Different Vanilla

[StrawberryZebra]

You never had "too many healers" for raiding in vanilla

This. Absolutely this. Being a healer in Vanilla was a thankless task. You were completely crippled outside of a group, you couldn't farm, you couldn't grind and you'd even struggle with gathering because if you had to kill anything at all to pick up a node someone else would swoop in and steal it before you could kill the mob. At best you might have a set of blue DPS gear you'd managed to scrounge up from 5 man dungeons, but without the talents to really support it your ability to do anything alone was seriously limited.

My guild got through more healers than any other role by far. Not because they were getting poached but because they usually rerolled to a DPS. Maintaining enough healers for a 40 man raiding team was a task in and of itself. If you're the biggest and best and guild on the server you might have healers lining up to join, everyone below that is probably struggling to keep enough healers just on the roster.

Things might be different come Classic of course, but I'd expect not, the core issues are going to remain. Skilled and geared Healers, of any class, are always going to be in demand simply because of how many you need for a raid and how rare, relatively speaking, they'll be compared to DPS. Things might be different for players who find themselves in Hardcore guilds who are looking to get everything down ASAP, but those are always a minority of players - And one most of us here probably aren't going to find ourselves in.

[Grimreaper]

You were never expected to tank and to be honest you really only did dmg if you wanted to go farm...

Guilds mostly took warm bodies for the most part unless you were in the minuscule progression groups. If your goal is to clear naxx I wouldn't be expecting to break the mold or for that matter play a hunter.

My guild had 9 or 10 druids in the roster during vanilla, wich was way more than most guilds. 2 of them tanked frequently in raids, even on progress. 2 of them were feral dps most of the time, and did top notch dps, sometimes on par with rogues and fury warriors. All of them healed in raids whenever it was needed, but none of them were healers 100% of the time.

[Gungnir]

My guild had 9 or 10 druids in the roster during vanilla, wich was way more than most guilds. 2 of them tanked frequently in raids, even on progress. 2 of them were feral dps most of the time, and did top notch dps, sometimes on par with rogues and fury warriors. All of them healed in raids whenever it was needed, but none of them were healers 100% of the time.

If this was back in Vanilla then you likely had both REALLY shitty warriors and rogues, and were doing MC or something similar.
Especially considering the Wolfshead + Pummeler combo needed to even compete with warriors and rogues wasn't discovered until much later on private servers.

[Has lost its way]

My guild had 9 or 10 druids in the roster during vanilla, wich was way more than most guilds. 2 of them tanked frequently in raids, even on progress. 2 of them were feral dps most of the time, and did top notch dps, sometimes on par with rogues and fury warriors. All of them healed in raids whenever it was needed, but none of them were healers 100% of the time.

This didn't happen... now druids could tank but never as well as warriors and were far more gear dependent. In Vanilla though the goal was to have as few druids in your raid as possible.

[Grimreaper]

If this was back in Vanilla then you likely had both REALLY shitty warriors and rogues, and were doing MC or something similar.
Especially considering the Wolfshead + Pummeler combo needed to even compete with warriors and rogues wasn't discovered until much later on private servers.

Thats not true at all, the 2 regular ferals were frequently farming Pummeler's when we were progressing AQ40 and Naxx (they first discovered it in early BWL days).

- - - Updated - - -

This didn't happen... now druids could tank but never as well as warriors and were far more gear dependent. In Vanilla though the goal was to have as few druids in your raid as possible.

One of our druids was putting in more effort than everyone else though. When AQ released he was armor capped, hit capped and close to def capped. There were clear advantages to having such a druid tanking on certain bosses. Even though he did take slightly more overall damage, he was far easier to keep alive and produced more threat than our TF warriors (unless they were dual-wield fury tanking on farm bosses, another thing that falsely originated from private servers).

[Has lost its way]

Thats not true at all, the 2 regular ferals were frequently farming Pummeler's when we were progressing AQ40 and Naxx (they first discovered it in early BWL days).

- - - Updated - - -



One of our druids was putting in more effort than everyone else though. When AQ released he was armor capped, hit capped and close to def capped. There were clear advantages to having such a druid tanking on certain bosses. Even though he did take slightly more overall damage, he was far easier to keep alive and produced more threat than our TF warriors (unless they were dual-wield fury tanking on farm bosses, another thing that falsely originated from private servers).

Your warriors just sucked though.. them sucking doesn't mean you should expect to see classes that just perform better not take the tank spot.

[Gungnir]

Thats not true at all, the 2 regular ferals were frequently farming Pummeler's when we were progressing AQ40 and Naxx (they first discovered it in early BWL days).

I mean they apparently discovered something that wasn't even discussed on EJ or any other BBS forum back then, nor something that any of the top ranking guilds knew about as people kept a close eye on raid compositions back then.

I'd like to believe that it's true, but it pretty much counters everything we've come across thus far. Humans are never good at keeping secrets, and stuff like this would've surfaced a lot sooner if ANYONE knew about it.
If it wasn't by those actually doing it, but by any of the 39 other people in the raid wondering why a druid was doing damage.

[Grimreaper]

Your warriors just sucked though.. them sucking doesn't mean you should expect to see classes that just perform better not take the tank spot.

Majority of our roster sucked. We only had like 10-12 players who were actually good (wich is why we didnt clear Naxx or get past Twin Emps), 4 of those were druids. We were still among the best guilds on the highest populated realm during vanilla, pre-Naxx atleast.

[Outofmana]

Please don't join my raids as a feral druid and ruin my wisdom palypower on druids, cba buffing single might on you ever 5min pls

[Grimreaper]

I mean they apparently discovered something that wasn't even discussed on EJ or any other BBS forum back then, nor something that any of the top ranking guilds knew about as people kept a close eye on raid compositions back then.

I'd like to believe that it's true, but it pretty much counters everything we've come across thus far. Humans are never good at keeping secrets, and stuff like this would've surfaced a lot sooner if ANYONE knew about it.
If it wasn't by those actually doing it, but by any of the 39 other people in the raid wondering why a druid was doing damage.

Maybe because our top druid was arguably one of the best players in the world, without being famous outside of the realm. Not everyone who discovers something new and game-breaking feels the need to share it with the world.

Just like me pulling 1.8k dps on Patchwerk with a 2hander and improved Slam is going to make everyone deny that that happened, because nobody else in the world did that and recorded it. Because nobody else is playing that spec on private servers (i really dont know why they arent).

[Gungnir]

Maybe because our top druid was arguably one of the best players in the world, without being famous outside of the realm. Not everyone who discovers something new and game-breaking feels the need to share it with the world.

Just like me pulling 1.8k dps on Patchwerk with a 2hander and improved Slam is going to make everyone deny that that happened, because nobody else in the world did that and recorded it. Because nobody else is playing that spec on private servers (i really dont know why they arent).

Oh, you're that guy.

Nevermind then.

[Ariakan76]

We discuss about 2 different things here.
First of all the players back in vanilla were exactly skilled as the today players are. Dont forget that the majority of vanilla players continued and played the game for many more expansion and even till today.
The difference between back then is that we had 2 years to theorycraft the game because after that we had to move to TBC. The ps players had an advantage that they had many infos because of the job the older players did and because of the unlimited time they had to try things. Both sides did an excelent job but back then was harder cause peoe had no infos at all. They were discovering everything from scratch.

Now about ideal raid set ups. It depends how you want to play the game. If you want to compete you Will take what is considered the Best classes to do the job.... That happen also back then.... If you Just want to kill the bosses and you dont care about competition then by all means try whatever specs and set ups you want... Its so simple.

Finaly to say that the players back then were not skilled as the players today is Just retarted. Yes we didnt have the time and infos people have today about vanilla... But skill? The same players that moved to tbc-wotlk-cataclysm etc etc defined the game and theorycrafting till today. They got all evolved together with the game. Most ps players are inspired and learned the game by those players. So please dont confuse things.

[anon5123]

and you have missed the point that your not getting an actual classic, your getting the patch right before tbc so players wont get the experience of leveling and playing without all the changes that came throughout. A patch that lasted 3 months is not vanilla.

Classic is classic argument is BS since thats not what your getting.

Completely unrelated to my post. Thanks for the ragey whining

[kenn9530]

Completely unrelated to my post. Thanks for the ragey whining

actually you missed the point completely, your argument is classic should not be changed but your not getting the classic everyone got the first time around, it will never be the same experience so adding some stats on gear like defence on some leather, int on some plate wouldnt change the experience at all anyway and allow players a little more choice.

We discuss about 2 different things here.
First of all the players back in vanilla were exactly skilled as the today players are. Dont forget that the majority of vanilla players continued and played the game for many more expansion and even till today.
The difference between back then is that we had 2 years to theorycraft the game because after that we had to move to TBC. The ps players had an advantage that they had many infos because of the job the older players did and because of the unlimited time they had to try things. Both sides did an excelent job but back then was harder cause peoe had no infos at all. They were discovering everything from scratch.

Now about ideal raid set ups. It depends how you want to play the game. If you want to compete you Will take what is considered the Best classes to do the job.... That happen also back then.... If you Just want to kill the bosses and you dont care about competition then by all means try whatever specs and set ups you want... Its so simple.

Finaly to say that the players back then were not skilled as the players today is Just retarted. Yes we didnt have the time and infos people have today about vanilla... But skill? The same players that moved to tbc-wotlk-cataclysm etc etc defined the game and theorycrafting till today. They got all evolved together with the game. Most ps players are inspired and learned the game by those players. So please dont confuse things.

there actually was allot less skilled players back in vanilla, it was rare to have a full raid group where more than half were skilled enough to play over 80% especially in 40 man raids, plus the amount of time needed to gear players properly.

Vanilla had basic mechanics to follow so skill cap was way lower than current skill cap.

[Grimreaper]

actually you missed the point completely, your argument is classic should not be changed but your not getting the classic everyone got the first time around, it will never be the same experience so adding some stats on gear like defence on some leather, int on some plate wouldnt change the experience at all anyway and allow players a little more choice.



there actually was allot less skilled players back in vanilla, it was rare to have a full raid group where more than half were skilled enough to play over 80% especially in 40 man raids, plus the amount of time needed to gear players properly.

Vanilla had basic mechanics to follow so skill cap was way lower than current skill cap.

It's not that players were less skilled, it's that individual skill was less important. So yes, the average raider was less skilled than todays raiders (LFR and normal not included), but in the top-end hardcore players theres really not much difference.

[kenn9530]

It's not that players were less skilled, it's that individual skill was less important. So yes, the average raider was less skilled than todays raiders (LFR and normal not included), but in the top-end hardcore players theres really not much difference.

top end raiders skill level back in vanilla was nothing compared to current wow, an average raider in vanilla could get into a top end raiding guild as long as they put effort/time into gearing and such but an average raider will be lucky to kill a few mythic bosses in current wow

[Sorcereria]

top end raiders skill level back in vanilla was nothing compared to current wow, an average raider in vanilla could get into a top end raiding guild as long as they put effort/time into gearing and such but an average raider will be lucky to kill a few mythic bosses in current wow

Do you consider that Vanilla raiders stopped getting better with next expansions?
I stopped raiding in 2013 but considering my experience I would highly/probably likely be able to join top 50 if not much better within few weeks of getting back to game based on only 'portfolio' as im completly inactive since 2013.
The only problem I would consider is my muscle tissue degraded on my hands/palms/fingers over those years, getting in shape again takes time

I will turn the situation. Players from around 2011-2013 would not be able to hardcore raid vanila. The preperation required was much bigger hassle and even selling MC/BWL/AQ/ZG runs didn't cut it in long run. In later expansions I could have purely focused on leveling & gearing pre-raid with expansion launches, even include 1 or 2 alts ready for raiding and I would be able to almost purely show for raids for next few months. In vanila it was much much different.

I would consider hardcore vanila raids to raiding in top 10-15 guilds with running multiple alts gearing progressions at the same time nowadays for comparison sake.

[Grimreaper]

top end raiders skill level back in vanilla was nothing compared to current wow, an average raider in vanilla could get into a top end raiding guild as long as they put effort/time into gearing and such but an average raider will be lucky to kill a few mythic bosses in current wow

Just because you were bad in vanilla doesnt mean everyone else was.

But yes, there was mediocre players in every single top guild back then. They got carried. Wich yet again proves my point that player skill was less important back then. Doesnt change the fact that the actually best of the best players were comparable to todays best of the best players.

[kenn9530]

Do you consider that Vanilla raiders stopped getting better with next expansions?
I stopped raiding in 2013 but considering my experience I would highly/probably likely be able to join top 50 if not much better within few weeks of getting back to game based on only 'portfolio' as im completly inactive since 2013.
The only problem I would consider is my muscle tissue degraded on my hands/palms/fingers over those years, getting in shape again takes time

I will turn the situation. Players from around 2011-2013 would not be able to hardcore raid vanila. The preperation required was much bigger hassle and even selling MC/BWL/AQ/ZG runs didn't cut it in long run. In later expansions I could have purely focused on leveling & gearing pre-raid with expansion launches, even include 1 or 2 alts ready for raiding and I would be able to almost purely show for raids for next few months. In vanila it was much much different.

I would consider hardcore vanila raids to raiding in top 10-15 guilds with running multiple alts gearing progressions at the same time nowadays for comparison sake.

What im basically saying is vanilla is not going to be a challenge for anyone capable of killing a mythic end boss in its current tier, everyone knows all the mechanics and have practiced them over and over for years.

You would not be able to get a top 100 spot without proving your capable these days, if you dont have relevant exp or join at the start of an expansion then you will never get a raid spot, previous tier exp is irrelevant.

I played in vanilla it was more of a grind than skill

Just because you were bad in vanilla doesnt mean everyone else was.

But yes, there was mediocre players in every single top guild back then. They got carried. Wich yet again proves my point that player skill was less important back then. Doesnt change the fact that the actually best of the best players were comparable to todays best of the best players.

Everyone was bad in vanilla it was mostly just a grind with minimal skill, if you had time any player could reach rank 14 PvP and do all raid content, a best of the best vanilla player wont compare to the best current wow player.

The difficulty in vanilla was either due to players being undergeared or lack of knowledge, current wow does not have any issues with knowledge anymore.

A top vanilla player is not equal to a top current player, mechanics over the years have increased the skill gap massively over the years.

[Zulatomten]

I stopped raiding in 2013 but considering my experience I would highly/probably likely be able to join top 50 if not much better within few weeks of getting back to game based on only 'portfolio' as im completly inactive since 2013.

If you stopped raiding in 2013 and expect to join a top 50 guild and preform equally to them now, either you were the god incarnate and somehow retained your skill throughout not exercising that skill for 6 years. Or you think recently released raid encounters are as trivial as the ones released in the first 3 expansions.