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  1. #21
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    I feel that way about all Warcraft villains.

    The factions too strong, the characters are too strong (Mostly the Alliance’s), the player is too strong, the villains are too stupid.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Margamanthak View Post
    N'zoth is a schemer and a manipulator. He manipulated us into bringing a seed of the Nightmare to the heart of the Emerald Dream, which we did. He manipulated the Legion's invasion of Azeroth (Archimonde had a fragment of the Emerald Nightmare on him), which resulted in the sealing away of the Pantheon and the defeat of the Legion, his 2 primary threats. Depending on who it was who whispered to Vol'jin to put Sylvanas in charge, he may have manipulated the Horde's current warchief into power to create a massive war between the Horde and the Alliance, weakening both forces. He has also unleashed Xalatath onto Azeroth, and we don't know what those consequences might be.

    Honestly, we don't know the full scope of his plans, but they undoubtedly involve the Heart of Azeroth, which we are currently empowering. It could very well be the crown piece of his plans for Azeroth. We'll find out in 8.2.
    Say all you want, but in exposing himself he has proven that he is the DUMBEST old god yet. Cthun was already technically exposed a in the original war with the Qiraji in the effect that a large nearly unbeatable army was there so they sealed them away allowing him to gain power in the meantime. Cthun exposing himself was not even remotely foolish. Yogg gain control of what he though was the strongest force being the force that defeated them and it made sense to expose himself. Nzoth was barely even remotely freed when he exposed himself and had pretty much nothing going for him. Nzoth did not whisper anything to Voljin as he couldn't. His power is NOT even remotely that far reaching especially while jailed.

    Every instance of "manipulation" you keep suggesting is 100% speculation and could easily be refuted. You have no evidence that the item itself was more than just a breadcrumb for the expansion much less that he could even use it to manipulate someone....while 100% jailed on top of that.

    You've really given no evidence of actual scheming or manipulation short of getting Xal to get the player to work for them which was more her doing than his.

  3. #23
    I mean, the Night King was trapped by the Wall until Jon was stupid enough to think bringing a zombie to Cercei would get her to become a defender of the weak and innocent, and Dany was enough in lurv with him to bring forth her dragons. That's not really the result of cunning manipulations and more Jon being an idiot sometimes and Dany being sentimental.

    I do think the PC walking right into N'zoth's manipulations is contrived, but short of directly taking over our characters, how else will the writers show us that story? Have us stand by as someone else does it which is even worse? Show a vision which might raise more questions than it answers? Of course he'll get killed in the end, this games lives off its raid bosses and said bosses have to be recognizable big names, the endbosses at least. And a giant stonking tentacled abomination makes for a great endboss.

    But when it comes to scheming villains in Warcraft, I think N'zoth is in the upper tiers, certainly far better than the likes of the Lich King whose plan is similar enough but far stupider, or Garrosh who was so deluded he thought he could take on the entire planet because muh Orcs is stronk. Do remember BfA is N'zoth's plan B, plan A was Deathwing and it was only stopped thanks to a multitude of plot devices and a literal messiah.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    A villain is someone who is proactive and disrupts the status-quo in the story. Heroes are reactive and respond to the villain's actions instead of setting the story in motion. There are, of course, exceptions. But in the vast majority of cases (Warcraft included) the story goes like this: villain commits a heinous act, the heroes band together and beat the villain up. Rinse and repeat.

    N'Zoth can't be proactive. He is trapped in a prison that he can't break out of by himself. He can't act so he relies on his forces to do his bidding until he is freed...

    Except all of his forces are likewise imprisoned or long-defeated and can't act on their own. So he has to rely on corrupting other heroes and villains to do his bidding. And that's where the issue lies. In order to be a credible threat, the writers have to turn other characters that CAN act on their own and pursue their own ambitions into meat puppets for N'Zoth.

    Deathwing was sick and tired of his duties as the Earthwarder and thought he deserved better. He wanted to be the ultimate king of all dragons. He was a clever and interesting villain to fight against. But then the Cataclysm happened and he became a glorified battering ram for N'Zoth to pound Azeroth with. His characterization was completely butchered and he became nothing but a meat puppet for N'Zoth.

    Azshara wanted to be the goddess of Azeroth and thought that she rivaled Sargeras himself. Then she became another meat puppet for N'Zoth until (8.2 spoilers) she was eventually defeated while trying to free him. She never got to have her own agenda.

    Xavius became another meat puppet for N'Zoth. So did Ysera. And Cenarius. And Arygos. And Benedictus. And Ragnaros. And Al'akir. And Cho'gall. All of them being interesting characters that could've had their own stories but instead were ruthlessly butchered to push N'Zoth's story forward.

    Ultimately, even the player character and Sylvanas became dumb meat puppets for N'Zoth.

    N'Zoth is not a threat on his own. In order for him to be a threat, the writers have to intentionally dumb down all other characters and make them susceptible to going insane. This is not good writing. This is terrible writing. I'd much rather have all of those aforementioned characters following their own agendas instead of being puppeteered by N'Zoth and dying pathetic, humiliating deaths.

    The biggest insult, however, is that ultimately even N'Zoth himself is a meat puppet. He has no agenda of his own. He is just a semi-sentient blob of flesh carrying out the will of the Void Lords. Fighting N'Zoth is as interesting as fighting viruses or bacteria. You'd be pretty pissed off if a character in your favorite TV show suddenly died of an illness, no? That's what N'Zoth is - a pervasive virus corrupting Warcraft lore and making everything he touches shit.

    Contrast and compare with the Night King from GoT, another popular villain. The Night King accomplishes things and manages to be a terrifying villain DESPITE the heroes' best efforts to stop him. N'Zoth manages to be a threat only BECAUSE the heroes are written as complete dumbasses in order to accommodate him.

    Edit 1: coincidentally, WoW's lore started to go downhill in Cataclysm - when N'Zoth was first introduced.
    Corruption makes him a good villain. I love villains that corrupt... Heck, it's why the joker is such a good batman villain.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  5. #25
    The only interesting part in the story of BfA is N'Zoth. And I like that everything from Legion, or even WoD sent us where we are now. All the whispers, all the schemes that has been done. Hoping the faction war story ends now with 8.2 so we can go back to storytime, an Old God and his pawn. Or vica versa.
    Zandalari theme ftw! PURE GOLD!

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  6. #26
    Personally never been fond of them including what is essentially C'thulu mythos into wow. Why? Because the nature of said works is that they are horror about hopelessness. Fighting against a foe that can never be defeated, heck where usually, fighting is not even possible. Just the struggle to remain sane. No doubt they are good books, but the genre just does not mix.
    I'm an altoholic since 2005.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    N'Zoth is kind of satan. He is in place that he cant leave. He just could use weak and greedy characters to help him. They want his power and live in a dream they are something more in his game. Ofc he is not threat by him self until he reach freedom. Why awful ? He is the dark side the pure evil and bad. But ok why all those characters are involved into it. Maybe lore need something else.
    I mean lets be honest the best villains are the ones who don't think they are I heard many people complain (including me) about the oo so funny the old did it. but the Irony of it all is that it ends up being that.


    PS: I liked Benedictus he was interesting and mysterious.. shame it ended up like some meat puppet I agree OP.

  8. #28
    You probably shouldn't read the Wheel of time. I look forward to your book and superior writing skills

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    And that was another example of bad writing that was widely condemned on GoT / ASOIAF fan forums. At least Jon thought that was he was doing was right. The player character knew that doing N'Zoth's bidding was a bad idea but still did it anyway. It's as bad as if Jon had murdered Viserion himself and dragged his corpse all the way to the north of the wall and presented it on a silver platter to the Night King.
    Gameplay and lore are two different things. We know it is doing N'Zoth's bidding because of datamining and repeated times on alts. If Jon was in WoW and killing a dragon and dragging it across the wall was part of a quest chain to obtain a legendary Valerian steel main hand weapon...you are damn right every incarnation of Jon Snow would do that....

  10. #30
    He's the perfect counterpart to the type of protagonist Anduin is then.

  11. #31
    Old God Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natpick View Post
    very intresting post and i do agree.ive often thought why cant we just have some random bad guy to defeat,some evil dude who just decides to commit horrible acts,then all azeroth can unite to pummel him over the course of the expansion.
    Cause that's what we have done in most of the expansions that we have?

  12. #32
    Dreadlord yoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Nzoth is an extremely stupid villain. His SOLE purpose is to reach Azeroth and become a Void God. Exposing himself to the heroes when he was the last old god remaining is just ridiculous. If Azshara turned on him, which is possible, he should have found someone else weak minded to free him that wouldn't then blab about it to the whole world. Everyone should pretty much know about Nzoth in terms of the armies now. That TOTALLY spells good things for him, the weakest of the old gods that's still recovering from a beat down and we know we killed 2 others....

    - - - Updated - - -



    We know we can defeat Nzoth because we both know he's the weakest and had his ass kicked already historically by both titans and OGs AND we know we defeated 2 more powerful than him....

    It has nothing to do with a game. The only thing we don't have going for us is knowing where his prison is. I'm pretty sure someone in 8.2 does.....
    The thing about your second point is, N'zoth might have been the weakest Old God out of the originals, but we as player characters have never fought a fully-released Old God as of yet. C'thun was still mostly imprisoned, Yogg-saron was almost free but we had the help of 4 Titan Keepers on our side. Y'Shaarj was of course killed by Aman'thul so we only fought his remnants.

    The next argument might be that we have fought fully-powered Titans at this point via Argus so a measly Old God should be nothing, but there too we only succeeded with the help of the entire Pantheon. In every scenario where we have fought god-tier entities, we have had help from other god-tier entities to down them.

    We have steadily exhausted those god-tier cheerleaders: the dragon Aspects have lost their powers, the Titan Pantheon and its Keepers are busy tying down Sargeras and healing Azeroth, most of the Ancients and Loa have been killed, corrupted, or banished, the Naaru and the Light aren't at all trustworthy anymore after the shit they pulled in Legion, and Azeroth herself is on her deathbed, not to mention most of the world's heavy-hitting artifacts were destroyed sealing the sword wound. The best part is, we don't know how much of all of this (if any) was engineered or magnified by N'zoth himself to clear the way for his release.

    Unless Elune plops her sacred ass down on the planet herself, I'd say we have run pretty dry of deus ex machina elements. With all of that said, if a fully released Old God were to make an appearance right now, even if it might be the weakest of the bunch that landed on the planet, I'd wager the player characters would be in some deep shit.
    Last edited by yoma; 2019-04-25 at 07:38 PM.
    "It is not wise to judge others based on your own preconceptions or by their appearances."

  13. #33
    That's a nice way of saying that what you really want is indeed a comic-book style villain with no mind or depth.

  14. #34
    Warchief Themerlin's Avatar
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    I think it all started with him....



    I am sure Azshara will return.
    “Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.”

  15. #35
    I was about to counter all your points, but then I realized that it would take me too long.

    Just remember that one of the most popular and beloved villains in fiction, Sauron, is basically like N'zoth. A villain with a handicap who can't directly intervene in the story and has to play the role of a master manipulator who gives commands through his minions in a hivemind system and attempts to corrupt his enemies. Is Sauron a bad villain? Did Sauron's presence ruin the Lord of the Rings? Absolutely not.

    It's not that Azshara and Deathwing were butchered because of N'zoth, it's that you had way too high expectations when they were never hinted to be major antagonists on their own. It's like saying "The Witch King was butchered because instead of being the main villain of his own trilogy of books, he was just Sauron's mindless henchmen". You claimed that Azshara and Deathwing were created to be main antagonist material, when that was just a baseless assumption.
    Last edited by Void Fallen; 2019-04-25 at 07:45 PM.

  16. #36
    I see it as N'Zoth being really proactive. But the Old Gods work in a reeeally long time-frame compared to mortals.
    - Official Member of the Secret Cultural Marxist Cabal -

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    I was about to counter all your points, but then I realized that it would take me too long.

    Just remember that one of the most popular and beloved villains in fiction, Sauron, is basically like N'zoth. A villain with a handicap who can't directly intervene in the story and has to play the role of a master manipulator who gives commands through his minions in a hivemind system and attempts to corrupt his enemies. Is Sauron a bad villain? Did Sauron's presence ruin the Lord of the Rings? Absolutely not.
    Sauron was written by someone that isnt a deep-fried chimp.

  18. #38
    We very clearly saw N'zoth being proactive in Cataclysm. As soon as he witnessed the mortals being very damaged after their war with the Lich King, he ordered his strongest champion Deathwing to begin the Shattering of the world.

    If N'zoth were not a proactive villain, Cataclysm wouldn't have happened in the first place.

    Who do you think commanded Deathwing to start the Cataclysm? Who do you think ordered Azshara to conquer the seas? Who do you think turned Ragnaros and Al'akir against the mortals? Who do you think sent those giant worm monstruosities to Dragonblight? It was N'zoth.

    "N'zoth is not a proactive vilalin" ------> Very, VERY false.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, the Night King was trapped by the Wall until Jon was stupid enough to think bringing a zombie to Cercei would get her to become a defender of the weak and innocent, and Dany was enough in lurv with him to bring forth her dragons. That's not really the result of cunning manipulations and more Jon being an idiot sometimes and Dany being sentimental.

    I do think the PC walking right into N'zoth's manipulations is contrived, but short of directly taking over our characters, how else will the writers show us that story? Have us stand by as someone else does it which is even worse? Show a vision which might raise more questions than it answers? Of course he'll get killed in the end, this games lives off its raid bosses and said bosses have to be recognizable big names, the endbosses at least. And a giant stonking tentacled abomination makes for a great endboss.

    But when it comes to scheming villains in Warcraft, I think N'zoth is in the upper tiers, certainly far better than the likes of the Lich King whose plan is similar enough but far stupider, or Garrosh who was so deluded he thought he could take on the entire planet because muh Orcs is stronk. Do remember BfA is N'zoth's plan B, plan A was Deathwing and it was only stopped thanks to a multitude of plot devices and a literal messiah.
    It was never literally stated that Nzoth was in communication with DW unless I glossed over it in one of the Chronicles books. Even if it was Nzoth's plan(doubt it) there was a HIGH chance he killed Nzoth and/or Azeroth in the process. The land is desolate in End Time. "Hey let's let some unstoppable unstable force loose and purge the planet that might even kill me and the thing I'm trying to infect/possess!" I would say that him using HoO or whatever it was to reset the planet might make sense, but there's no surety that it wouldn't have killed Nzoth as well.

    Nzoth is far more of an idiot than the others you mentioned BECAUSE he has knowledge and still does the most ridiculously stupid things. "I'm the weakest, still reeling from Yshy boy beating my ass, but people don't really know about me or where I am......NAH rather than bide my time and break free secretly and do what I was created to do....HEY GUISE HERE I AM!!!!!!"

    The only possible redemption for the arc would be if Azshara already betrayed him and he doesn't have her which means he probably has nobody.

  20. #40
    But the thing is that this is how the Old Gods have to operate. C'thune was trapped within Ahn'Qiraj so we had to deal with his Qiraji/Silithid forces coming at us. Same with Yogg-Saron and the corrupted creations of Loken. Had the Scourge not been in play, we would presumably be fighting the Nerubians too.

    Keep in mind that these things are embedded in the planet. The first Well of Eternity, where the Maelstrom now is, is the site of where Y'shaarj was before he got ripped out by Aman'Thul. So even if he was alive, he would be stationary and we'd be fighting the Mantid.

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