Remember that Baine broke Oaths to the Horde even before the rebellion

[Gann Stonespire]

@TheTaurenChieftain

https://youtu.be/WZeE9jU1KDA?t=70

You can see here, Cairne doesn't stop and talk about peace, once he finds out the humans were hurting his orc friends, he immediately jumps into battle.

And if you're really a tauren fan, don't you remember all the heroic tauren NPCs Baine exiled for defending against their persecutors?

Longtime questgivers like: Kirge Sternhorn(whose wife was murdered by the Alliance), Jorn Skyseer(who helped Baine reclaim Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem), Winnona Pineforest(friend of Night elf Druid Naralex) among others.

Ok, seriously, what's with all the Baine hate on these forums? Is everyone here just a psychotic warhawk?

People don't hate Baine because he wants peace, but he because he repeatedly blatantly sides with the Alliance against the tauren. Not even once has Baine ever lifted a finger to defend the tauren against the Alliance.

Baine himself is psychotic given he not only brushed off tauren being wholesale butchered, but exiled those defending them including his longtime supporters.

[Specialka]

Basically Baine is a horde leader whose every action seems to be during a war with the alliance is do everything possible to hinder horde war efforts and help the alliance. Both wars which can be stated as started by Alliance action. Varian declaring war on Horde during Undercity. Genn's attacks on the Warchief during Legion.

In the first war he basically after Turajo instead of putting in more Tauren into the war effort decides anyone that wants to fight the Alliance is to be exiled. Basically think if Pearl Harbour happened and FDR instead of going with congress into declaring war on the Axis powers instead they all decided that not only would there not be a retaliation. Any American that went to fight for the allies against the Axis powers would be branded a criminal and not welcome in USA. All the while pushing to keep personal friendly relations with Hirohito and Mussolini. Going so far as to say that the British who decided to acknowledge the war against them by Japan are about to Nuke Japan to Hirohito and the japanese war cabinet.

That's Baine but swap Axis leaders to Jaina and Anduin.

The issue here is that in Wow, Axis Force is the Horde while allies is the Alliance. So, what is the issue is you decide to betray Hitler? Who could blame you?

[Gann Stonespire]

The issue here is that in Wow, Axis Force is the Horde while allies is the Alliance. So, what is the issue is you decide to betray Hitler? Who could blame you?

Using Godwin's law isn't helping your case at all...

[Specialka]

Using Godwin's law isn't helping your case at all...

I knew someone that would run out of argument would use Godwin.

[Irian]

You know what I find worse than BfA's horrible story? The people who obsess over and nitpick every character detail within them that the writers clearly didn't even consider.

We get it. Baine's badly written. As is Sylvanas, Saurfang, Tyrande, Malfurion, Nathanos, and if he was actually written at all, Anduin. The story sucks ass and was poorly thought out. I think I've seen at least 10 threads on MMO-C hyper-analyzing supposed character details of Baine that honestly don't matter in a story like this where nobody's acting like they should.

[LazarusLong]

I repeat my question. Who made them the supervisory board of the Horde?

Who made Sylvanas the warchief?

[Super Dickmann]

Who made Sylvanas the warchief?

Vol'jin did?

@Irian

Everyone is well aware that Blizzard don't give a shit about continuity and the actual intent is known to everyone posting, except OneWay I guess who's optimism is kind of endearing. But as this is a forum about discussing the story, and so people by default give a shit about the continuity, it comes up here where it won't in the writing room. The writers' apathy about their laziness doesn't make them any less lazy.

[Kiri]

Vol'jin did?

@Irian

Everyone is well aware that Blizzard don't give a shit about continuity and the actual intent is known to everyone posting, except OneWay I guess who's optimism is kind of endearing. But as this is a forum about discussing the story, and so people by default give a shit about the continuity, it comes up here where it won't in the writing room. The writers' apathy about their laziness doesn't make them any less lazy.

Isn't there a quest line that is all about whether Vol'jin actually did it? I can't motivate myself to do that one, so I honestly don't know if anything comes of it.

As for the writing: threads like these are seldom about the quality of writing, tbh. They are about people wanting 'their side' to 'win'. Which is testimony to how, even if the writing on a consistency basis is not very good, it actually seems to be effective. After all, Blizzard pretty much wants this polarization. That's what the expansion is about. It's much easier to be an author if people are not crying out in unison "the writing is crap", but rather argue with each other about how "the character you like is crap, mine is good", too.

[Wilfire]

At this point what does the Blood Oath even matter? The only one who gave a shit about it is Nazgrim and it got him killed. Sylvanas' shills serve her out of fear (non-rebel Horde leaders), self-interest (Gallywix) or loyalty (Nathanos). The characters that DO care about Horde ideals (Baine, Saurfang, Thrall) don't care about the Blood Oath either.

[Sliske]

Yet somehow that mad woman Christie Golden tries telling us something about him being the best the Horde has to offer. It is a shame how pathetic this faction has becoming since human potential and bad writing are in full swing.

You realise Christie doesn't actually set the lore, right? She is given story points and themes by the writers at Blizzard, then she goes and makes it into an actual story. Think of it like how D&D are doing game of thrones season 5-8 right now. The books, in most character arcs, are not there yet. They were given the main overarching themes and end points for each character, story beats etc, then GRRM left.

If you don't like that Baine is a shit leader and loves the alliance, thats on the WoW writers, not on Christie. Just like if you don't like that Arya is a mary sue, thats on GRRM, not on D&D.

[Gann Stonespire]

At this point what does the Blood Oath even matter? The only one who gave a shit about it is Nazgrim and it got him killed. Sylvanas' shills serve her out of fear (non-rebel Horde leaders), self-interest (Gallywix) or loyalty (Nathanos). The characters that DO care about Horde ideals (Baine, Saurfang, Thrall) don't care about the Blood Oath either.

> Baine
> Caring about the Horde's ideals

These two things do not go together as has been pointed out many times.

You realise Christie doesn't actually set the lore, right? She is given story points and themes by the writers at Blizzard, then she goes and makes it into an actual story. Think of it like how D&D are doing game of thrones season 5-8 right now. The books, in most character arcs, are not there yet. They were given the main overarching themes and end points for each character, story beats etc, then GRRM left.

If you don't like that Baine is a shit leader and loves the alliance, thats on the WoW writers, not on Christie. Just like if you don't like that Arya is a mary sue, thats on GRRM, not on D&D.

She was the one that made Baine say the citizens Taurajo deserved being firebombed and then exile his supporters defending the tauren from the invading Alliance soldiers, though. Baine was originally going to support the tauren as can be seen in his removed lines about defending the gate and avenging Taurajo in sharp contrast to Golden's portrayal.

[Super Dickmann]

Isn't there a quest line that is all about whether Vol'jin actually did it? I can't motivate myself to do that one, so I honestly don't know if anything comes of it.

Vol'jin is tricked by N'zoth some dark power who's totally not N'zoth into appointing Sylvanas. But as with the Legion arranging Blackhand to be in power, that has no bearing on the Warchief's legitimacy per the Blood Oath. Orgrim still used Mak'gora to unseat Blackhand and so should the rebels.

As for the writing: threads like these are seldom about the quality of writing, tbh. They are about people wanting 'their side' to 'win'. Which is testimony to how, even if the writing on a consistency basis is not very good, it actually seems to be effective. After all, Blizzard pretty much wants this polarization. That's what the expansion is about. It's much easier to be an author if people are not crying out in unison "the writing is crap", but rather argue with each other about how "the character you like is crap, mine is good", too.

I think with the exclusion of some Zandalar and Kul Tiran stuff, people mostly agree that the writing is crap, it's just that they disagree on the solution. Everyone knows who'll win here and what the basic gist of the ending is, it's the execution and how it connects with earlier context that people argue over. For example @Wilfire, the Horde has no values whatsoever, Baine and Saurfang don't represent Horde ideals per se because nothing ties the Horde down to its beliefs only being what Thrall said it was while soundly failing to actually be for about 4 years before Thrall himself gave up on it. The Blood Oath, as the only real law the Horde has, is the closest to actual Horde values, as all are bound to it on paper.

[Wilfire]

Vol'jin is tricked by N'zoth some dark power who's totally not N'zoth into appointing Sylvanas. But as with the Legion arranging Blackhand to be in power, that has no bearing on the Warchief's legitimacy per the Blood Oath. Orgrim still used Mak'gora to unseat Blackhand and so should the rebels.



I think with the exclusion of some Zandalar and Kul Tiran stuff, people mostly agree that the writing is crap, it's just that they disagree on the solution. Everyone knows who'll win here and what the basic gist of the ending is, it's the execution and how it connects with earlier context that people argue over. For example @Wilfire, the Horde has no values whatsoever, Baine and Saurfang don't represent Horde ideals per se because nothing ties the Horde down to its beliefs only being what Thrall said it was while soundly failing to actually be for about 4 years before Thrall himself gave up on it. The Blood Oath, as the only real law the Horde has, is the closest to actual Horde values, as all are bound to it on paper.

In Blizzard's storytelling, it doesn't matter that all members of the Horde are bound by the Blood Oath because it will never be enforced. There are no borderline cases that would make act treasonous solely on the basis of the Blood Oath. If, for example, Baine refused to provide Sylvanas with troops for her Darkshore campaign, it would have been a morally ambiguous action but explicit treason according to the Blood Oath.

Killing your own troops to provide with enemy with an asset, however, is so intrinsically treasonous that you don't need the Blood Oath to condemn it as treason. If Shaw had murdered SI:7 operatives and escorted Saurfang back to Orgrimmar, it would have been treason even though the Alliance doesn't have a Blood Oath.

Even Sylvanas herself doesn't care about the Blood Oath. I'm pretty sure killing Zelling wasn't because she believed in the Blood Oath. She killed him because he disobeyed her and paid the price for it.

[Super Dickmann]

In Blizzard's storytelling, it doesn't matter that all members of the Horde are bound by the Blood Oath because it will never be enforced. There are no borderline cases that would make act treasonous solely on the basis of the Blood Oath. If, for example, Baine refused to provide Sylvanas with troops for her Darkshore campaign, it would have been a morally ambiguous action but explicit treason according to the Blood Oath.

Killing your own troops to provide with enemy with an asset, however, is so intrinsically treasonous that you don't need the Blood Oath to condemn it as treason. If Shaw had murdered SI:7 operatives and escorted Saurfang back to Orgrimmar, it would have been treason even though the Alliance doesn't have a Blood Oath.

Even Sylvanas herself doesn't care about the Blood Oath. I'm pretty sure killing Zelling wasn't because she believed in the Blood Oath. She killed him because he disobeyed her and paid the price for it.

Whether the parties believe in the binding nature of the Blood Oath is immaterial in a legal sense. Sylvanas may have killed Zelling because he brought her cold coffee that morning and she'd still be acting within the accord of the Blood Oath, since the Warchief has infinite power.

Additionally, whether Blizzard allow their writing to be informed by what they previously wrote is also immaterial unless you mistake intent for result. Blizzard want us to believe that Baine is an honorable figure doing what's best and representing all that's good in the Horde. Genuinely no one believes this, especially that last part. But it is what they intend.

I do agree with you though that the Blood Oath is unnecessary in arguing Baine's guilt in all cases. All states in the world would have had him either in prison for life or decorating a noose for just his stunt back in Mists with Jaina, let alone his Horde troop killing spree and most states in the world have leagues more legal safeguards and actual established cultures as institutions compared to the Horde. That is if his own people didn't put him there first given how long a leader who pulled what he did with Taurajo would last.

[Mehrunes]

You seem confused as to why an alliance of convenience comprised of races who mostly prefer to solve their problems with violence would have that authority just because they have weapons and forces withwhich to inflict said violence.

The races prefering to solve their problems with violence in no way, shape or form constitutes a legal authority. I'll ask a third time then as so far you're pointlessly meandering.

So uhh, I'd say this guy did.

You mean the Warchief that was using his absolute power as he pleased with no regard to any of his advisors? Yeah, no.

But also the guy who did this.

You mean the guy who put the guy in the stone hand, i.e. the absolute ruler not listening to anyone also by ignoring all of his advisers (and Garrosh as well)?

Or really we could go all the way back to these little rebels against their demonic authority.

What does one have to do with the other? The Legion merely manipulated the Horde. The Horde owed them no true allegiance, nor were their actual subjects.

So if you're the Warchief, expected to lead these people, you'd better do your job right. Because if you don't value their input, they will put in a dagger in your back, as Vol'jin put it.

If you lead
I will follow
-Thrall, to his successor

Except as Baine himself argued, the very words of Vol'jin you're referring to here warranted his death penalty. Making it clear as fucking day he had no such authority. You couldn't find a worse example if you could and your three prior examples were already terribad.

Does it matter when the majority of the Horde leaders decide to rebel against her? I mean, force makes right in WoW.

The capacity of people to break the law doesn't mean there's no law. It only makes the people using such a capacity of theirs criminals.

Yes I was referring to Derek specifically in that example, hence "blighting her own troops" being a separate point.

Also thought about including "the forces of the guy who did this" referring to Siege of Orgrimmar in the above segment but I couldn't figure out how to make it flow nicely. You get the idea. The Horde solves its problems primarily with violence, whether from, or against, its leader at the time. Garrosh was deposed, and they could do it again if they wanted. That is "authority" in a warrior culture.

This isn't any more of a legitimate authority than a murderer solving their problems with another person by murdering them.

It feels like we've got two main positions:

1: Baine is just following what he thinks is right. He's got a good heart, and we shouldn't punish him for that. Baine thinks the Horde must stick to principles of honor to be strong.

Which is a nonsensical position because even if that was true, "having a good heart" and "just doing what he thinks is right" (which somehow by pure accidental accident is always helping the Alliance and handicapping the Horde) is not a carte blanche to do as he pleases nor a jail out of free card for the consequences of his actions. Actions that include literal treason from any and all perspectives.

Who made Sylvanas the warchief?

The Horde did when they accepted Vol'jin's nomination and swore to her.

Isn't there a quest line that is all about whether Vol'jin actually did it? I can't motivate myself to do that one, so I honestly don't know if anything comes of it.

The questline is only about Vol'jin sucking balls even as a Shadow Hunter (so that now he sucks at everything he has ever touched in his life) and only thinking it was the Loa that whispered to him, when in actuality it was some other entity, perhaps attuned with the realm of Death. But that doesn't negate the fact that he appointed Sylvanas. And him being wrong in his motivation is largely irrelevant. As @Super Dickmann already mentioned in their reply to you, Blackhand was deposed in a Mak'gora. If false pretenses for appointing one Warchief were enough to dismantle the legitimacy of a Warchief, that Mak'gora would have been unnecessary and Orgrim could have just exposed his findings to the Horde.

[Harazi]

I guess my view is just weird. I've been playing since Vanilla and I'm weary as hell of the faction war and in my own character's stories, they've all gone out of their way to avoid the faction conflict, and to seek relationships with the alliance where feasible. Ever since I heard Baine managed to befriend Anduin, I really thought that maybe just maybe the war would be ending and the game could focus on conflicts against true threats.

[Powerogue]

The issue here is that in Wow, Axis Force is the Horde while allies is the Alliance. So, what is the issue is you decide to betray Hitler? Who could blame you?

Or, a better way to phrase it would be that Baine's leaders keep wanting the utter destruction of their enemies at any cost, while Baine's goal is eventual peace with said enemies. That will obviously lead to disagreements on what would be the right way to proceed, since they have completely different goals.

Were people this ridiculously vitriolic towards Jaina back when she was in this position against Varian in WotLK? Or in MOP/Legion when we flipped the script and Varian was willing to declare the end of the faction war against Jaina's wishes and eventually work with the Horde on the Broken Shore?

- - - Updated - - -

The capacity of people to break the law doesn't mean there's no law. It only makes the people using such a capacity of theirs criminals.

When EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE HORDE are "criminals" you need to weigh whether the nice, clean, legal system you're deluded to think exists is relevant. I gave 3 perfect examples of how, when conflict between leadership happens in the Horde, the solution is violence. (And yes, by willingly drinking demon blood, Mannoroth became their leader/slavemaster.) Whether that's a nice clean 1v1 duel or 25 random people banging down your door to beat the stuffing out of you.

You can focus on the optimistic way they want things to work, or you can accept the way things historically actually work.

[LazarusLong]

Isn't there a quest line that is all about whether Vol'jin actually did it? I can't motivate myself to do that one, so I honestly don't know if anything comes of it.

I remember something like that, yes

But what's more important, Chieftans accepted here as the Warcheif, obviously they have the power to denounce her.

- - - Updated - - -

The races prefering to solve their problems with violence in no way, shape or form constitutes a legal authority. I'll ask a third time then as so far you're pointlessly meandering.




You mean the Warchief that was using his absolute power as he pleased with no regard to any of his advisors? Yeah, no.




You mean the guy who put the guy in the stone hand, i.e. the absolute ruler not listening to anyone also by ignoring all of his advisers (and Garrosh as well)?




What does one have to do with the other? The Legion merely manipulated the Horde. The Horde owed them no true allegiance, nor were their actual subjects.




Except as Baine himself argued, the very words of Vol'jin you're referring to here warranted his death penalty. Making it clear as fucking day he had no such authority. You couldn't find a worse example if you could and your three prior examples were already terribad.




The capacity of people to break the law doesn't mean there's no law. It only makes the people using such a capacity of theirs criminals.




This isn't any more of a legitimate authority than a murderer solving their problems with another person by murdering them.




Which is a nonsensical position because even if that was true, "having a good heart" and "just doing what he thinks is right" (which somehow by pure accidental accident is always helping the Alliance and handicapping the Horde) is not a carte blanche to do as he pleases nor a jail out of free card for the consequences of his actions. Actions that include literal treason from any and all perspectives.




The Horde did when they accepted Vol'jin's nomination and swore to her.




The questline is only about Vol'jin sucking balls even as a Shadow Hunter (so that now he sucks at everything he has ever touched in his life) and only thinking it was the Loa that whispered to him, when in actuality it was some other entity, perhaps attuned with the realm of Death. But that doesn't negate the fact that he appointed Sylvanas. And him being wrong in his motivation is largely irrelevant. As @Super Dickmann already mentioned in their reply to you, Blackhand was deposed in a Mak'gora. If false pretenses for appointing one Warchief were enough to dismantle the legitimacy of a Warchief, that Mak'gora would have been unnecessary and Orgrim could have just exposed his findings to the Horde.

In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me – who lives and who dies?

[Gann Stonespire]

Or, a better way to phrase it would be that Baine's leaders keep wanting the utter destruction of their enemies at any cost, while Baine's goal is eventual peace with said enemies. That will obviously lead to disagreements on what would be the right way to proceed, since they have completely different goals.

The thing is Baine doesn't support the Horde on anything, he has never fought the Alliance on the Horde's behalf, supports all Alliance land grabs of Horde territory, ETC.

Baine is fail and has only been a detriment to the Horde.

Were people this ridiculously vitriolic towards Jaina back when she was in this position against Varian in WotLK?

Alliance players were much more vitriolic towards Jaina even though she did act against against the Horde prior to Tides of War, with Theramore invading Durotar in Cataclysm.

[Powerogue]

The thing is Baine doesn't support the Horde on anything, he has never fought the Alliance on the Horde's behalf, supports all Alliance land grabs of Horde territory, ETC.

Baine is fail and has only been a detriment to the Horde.

Alliance players were much more vitriolic towards Jaina even though she did act against against the Horde prior to Tides of War, with Theramore invading Durotar in Cataclysm.

You act like the only thing he's ever done is betray the Horde to the Alliance.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Baine_Bloodhoof

He has his own article, it's worth a read.

Just skimming for the moment, I'm noticing:

-accepting help from Jaina against the Grimtotem was not betraying the Horde. He needed help to defend Thunder Bluff, which is Horde territory, from its enemies, and he used his diplomacy skills to obtain it.

-"As Our Fathers Before Us" shows him again using his diplomacy skills in the defense and protection of the Horde, proving more effective than Garrosh's brutish methods. Baine actually rejects Hamuul Runetotem's suggestion to return to independence, stating how he has hope that his influence can help shape the Horde positively. He cares about the Horde and wants to shape it to a stronger future. If he didn't, he would have left by now.

-despite strongly disapproving of the attack on Theramore, Baine still willingly lead his forces to join that battle. " As they left to carry out his order, Baine told Garrosh he hoped a Horde would be left after this debacle." Once again demonstrating his clear motivation for the long term survival of the Horde as a faction.

-Baine sticks around on Pandaria, despite Vol'jin's warnings that he might be in danger. Even with the Warchief acting increasingly paranoid and dangerous, Baine tried to stick it out. To be that voice of reason, and keep things under control for the good of the Horde, even when it put himself at risk. We see an example of this as, when attempting to retrieve the Divine Bell, Baine talks down Garrosh from torture to a pandaren potion that reveals its location.

-He pledged his forces to the Darkspear Rebellion, ensuring a future for the Horde that would not involve everyone sacrificed on the altars of the Old Ones by a warchief who had gone off the deep end headfirst. He is also the one to suggest Vol'jin find allies "outside the Horde", without whom the rebellion would have failed.

-despite suffering personally from Garrosh, he willingly plays devil's advocate for him in his trial, putting his feelings aside in the pursuit of justice. He echoes the sentiments of Archdruid Hamuul Runetotem who convinced Thrall and Cairne to let the Forsaken join the Horde: the hope that people can change for the better. (the irony of both in hindsight notwithstanding)

-defended the new Warchief against assassins at Vol'jin's funeral, and fought alongside them throughout Legion.

-made a rousing, inspiring speech at the victory gathering afterwards. The most "For the Horde!" patriotic speech I've seen since the "Strength of Steel" short story.

-Under Sylvanas's orders, secured the allegiance of the Highmountain tribes, fighting off a void invasion of Thunder Bluff in the process (it's complicated.)

-even in retrieving Derek, arguably the most directly treasonous thing he's ever done, which got him arrested, he spared any forsaken loyalists who willingly surrendered, and was willing to go quietly.