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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Atraxxa View Post
    nah they would have to introduce some alliance version of undead to the game to keep the masses from revolting ofcourse
    What about “non-undead” hunters? Would they only be able to play 2 specs then? Or would Dark Ranger be added as a fourth spec that only undead can play?

  2. #82
    it's funny how you would rather go off topic on the dark ranger than to answer a valid question about SV and MM

  3. #83
    Kaver plays DH and talks about "easy spec" for Hunters in BFA where basically all specs are either "put dots dump resource with that" or "press everything at CD"

    I mean...

  4. #84
    High Overlord Atraxxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    Kaver plays DH and talks about "easy spec" for Hunters in BFA where basically all specs are either "put dots dump resource with that" or "press everything at CD"

    I mean...
    I feel like almost all specs fall into that category of play style nowadays though. There are a few like outlaw that do not but I cant really think of any outside that of that.
    You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You might not agree with or fully understand the answer, but, it is correct because of reasons.”

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    Kaver plays DH and talks about "easy spec" for Hunters in BFA where basically all specs are either "put dots dump resource with that" or "press everything at CD"

    I mean...
    DH is one of the classes i don’t play. I often play Hunter though. And BM is by far the easiest spec I have ever played in a Mythic raid. It was even easier in Legion, so I guess it is a step in the right direction at least.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    DH is one of the classes i don’t play. I often play Hunter though. And BM is by far the easiest spec I have ever played in a Mythic raid. It was even easier in Legion, so I guess it is a step in the right direction at least.
    Can you put the logs of the relevant character you are playing to check the difference between your performance with harder spec and the spec you are apparently shitting on ?

    Thanks in advance.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapstarz View Post
    Can you put the logs of the relevant character you are playing to check the difference between your performance with harder spec and the spec you are apparently shitting on ?

    Thanks in advance.
    Logs are not really relevant in this context as they are about spec A vs spec A and spec B vs spec B. Not spec A vs spec B. So you cant really use logs to compare specs in that way. The overall kill time of the boss will also play a big role, so you will typically easier to get good logs if you are in a good guild.

    I’m not shitting on any specs. Saying that BM is easy is not an insult. There is nothing wrong with easy specs, I just think it should be considered when you compare maximum performance of specs.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Logs are not really relevant in this context as they are about spec A vs spec A and spec B vs spec B. Not spec A vs spec B. So you cant really use logs to compare specs in that way. The overall kill time of the boss will also play a big role, so you will typically easier to get good logs if you are in a good guild.

    I’m not shitting on any specs. Saying that BM is easy is not an insult. There is nothing wrong with easy specs, I just think it should be considered when you compare maximum performance of specs.
    So your spin here seems to be: Since you cannot perform as well on other classes, because, you know, you can' t play them as "easily" as you can play BM, you desire all other DPs classes to do a considerably higher damage baseline to compensate for your inability to output. You said it: "BM is easier than all other DPS". And even then you're not really good at BM too.

    But then it hit me: I can see your point of view if what you consider playing a spec resembles rolling your knuckles on your keyboard. BM all instants will help there. Pet always on melee, too. That's totally imbalanced for when you change to play a caster or play a melee and have to save CD's for when in range. I think I got you, bro. BM is "too easy". /wink

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Saulburn View Post
    So your spin here seems to be: Since you cannot perform as well on other classes, because, you know, you can' t play them as "easily" as you can play BM, you desire all other DPs classes to do a considerably higher damage baseline to compensate for your inability to output. You said it: "BM is easier than all other DPS". And even then you're not really good at BM too.

    But then it hit me: I can see your point of view if what you consider playing a spec resembles rolling your knuckles on your keyboard. BM all instants will help there. Pet always on melee, too. That's totally imbalanced for when you change to play a caster or play a melee and have to save CD's for when in range. I think I got you, bro. BM is "too easy". /wink
    Hmmm... I was just giving my input to people complaining about BM performance. I think it is natural that other specs - which are more challenging to play in mythic raids - have a higher maximum performance. BM could actually in my opinion use a small nerf. Especially for M+. If I should describe BM to a new player it would be: "Playing WoW with cheat codes on".

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Logs are not really relevant in this context as they are about spec A vs spec A and spec B vs spec B. Not spec A vs spec B. So you cant really use logs to compare specs in that way. The overall kill time of the boss will also play a big role, so you will typically easier to get good logs if you are in a good guild.

    I’m not shitting on any specs. Saying that BM is easy is not an insult. There is nothing wrong with easy specs, I just think it should be considered when you compare maximum performance of specs.
    I'm talking about 95% ich people not casuals. With your way of thinking a cutting edge BM would do poorly on a harder spec and a harder spec would be top worlds parse as BM and I don't think this way of thinking is accurate. BM has other issue to perform at max, beeing if you don't save a dash for a swap you'll lose AA, if you don't pin point your pet on the correct mob during a M+ fight you'll lose DPS. Having a pet to manage and I mean well / perfectly is not that simple but we can argue on that point.
    I played MM during early progress and the gearing process to get 3 DoD and I did orange parses too and I don't think MM is harder than BM, it's just mecanics and it's the player that impact these things not the specs.
    My point on the logs is just to see if you are actually the kind of people I was mentionning before : Are you over performing on BM while doing Ok-ish on "harder" class or not. I think this is relevant enough for the debate. Gyazo screen if logs are on private no problem with that.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim32 View Post
    It's a 2 boss raid. This is cutting edge where every % matters. It's expected that some classes will be left out in favor of others. It does not mean buffs are needed. That's making a mountain out of a mole hill.
    LOL? classes will be left out? Seems like some of the worst game design ever if certain classes aren't even viable for the content. Should just scrap the whole raid and add more island expeditions.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapstarz View Post
    I'm talking about 95% ich people not casuals. With your way of thinking a cutting edge BM would do poorly on a harder spec and a harder spec would be top worlds parse as BM and I don't think this way of thinking is accurate. BM has other issue to perform at max, beeing if you don't save a dash for a swap you'll lose AA, if you don't pin point your pet on the correct mob during a M+ fight you'll lose DPS. Having a pet to manage and I mean well / perfectly is not that simple but we can argue on that point.
    I played MM during early progress and the gearing process to get 3 DoD and I did orange parses too and I don't think MM is harder than BM, it's just mecanics and it's the player that impact these things not the specs.
    My point on the logs is just to see if you are actually the kind of people I was mentionning before : Are you over performing on BM while doing Ok-ish on "harder" class or not. I think this is relevant enough for the debate. Gyazo screen if logs are on private no problem with that.
    You’re assuming that I think Cutting Edge BM players are bad players. No.

    For the average mythic raider, it will be easier to have close to 100% uptime with BM than other spec. It is easier to dodge mechanics while keep your rotation going. For example last phase on Rastakhan. Therefore, in my opinion, it is natural that other specs should have a better maximum performance if played perfectly. The average mythic raider don’t play perfectly.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You’re assuming that I think Cutting Edge BM players are bad players. No.

    For the average mythic raider, it will be easier to have close to 100% uptime with BM than other spec. It is easier to dodge mechanics while keep your rotation going. For example last phase on Rastakhan. Therefore, in my opinion, it is natural that other specs should have a better maximum performance if played perfectly. The average mythic raider don’t play perfectly.
    So your PoV is that if a spec has its way going when getting bullied by abilities (hence forced movements because they didn't plan the ability) it should automaticaly be tuned down for top players because mythics casuals have a spec that do like 1k-1k5 more DPS than a caster spec and with the condition of beeing bad or averagely played ?

    Why do you care about average player ? Top parses casters manage abilities correctly and do very well even with movement, why should they be on par, and sometimes higher, with a class that has the free movement tax you propose ? With your example, should blizzard nerf fire mage too because another spec can freely DPS when Rastakhan is around 10% HP ?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapstarz View Post
    So your PoV is that if a spec has its way going when getting bullied by abilities (hence forced movements because they didn't plan the ability) it should automaticaly be tuned down for top players because mythics casuals have a spec that do like 1k-1k5 more DPS than a caster spec and with the condition of beeing bad or averagely played ?

    Why do you care about average player ? Top parses casters manage abilities correctly and do very well even with movement, why should they be on par, and sometimes higher, with a class that has the free movement tax you propose ? With your example, should blizzard nerf fire mage too because another spec can freely DPS when Rastakhan is around 10% HP ?
    Luckily it is not only based on the Rastakhan example. An example is an example. BM is in general less restricted compared to other specs including fire mages.

    During progression, even top mythic players will benefit from the freedom of BM. A player like Gingi from Method who is considered highly skilled, has told that he really appreciate the simplicity of BM on progression fights as you cant plan for everything.

    Logs from farm fights after guilds have killed the bosses 10+ times and know the fights inside out, are not interesting.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Atraxxa View Post
    nah they would have to introduce some alliance version of undead to the game to keep the masses from revolting ofcourse
    Weren't we speculating about Alliance possibly getting lightforged undead what with Arthas's sister and whatnot?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Luckily it is not only based on the Rastakhan example. An example is an example. BM is in general less restricted compared to other specs including fire mages.

    During progression, even top mythic players will benefit from the freedom of BM. A player like Gingi from Method who is considered highly skilled, has told that he really appreciate the simplicity of BM on progression fights as you cant plan for everything.

    Logs from farm fights after guilds have killed the bosses 10+ times and know the fights inside out, are not interesting.
    Can you reply to my question then ? Fire has the same mobility as BM in exec phase, the only phase that matters during progression. Will you apply the same logic here or not ?

    I agree with you, BM has it easy to learn the fight but you can argue that if you are ONLY learning the mecanics meaning you pull bosses without intent to kill and learn the mecanics then it's the same. A lot of guild don't care about numbers before the boss is in kill range due to people having learned the mecanics so shrug.

    Your example with Gingi is totaly true, you can even ask every top player "Would you rather be free of movement during progress" they would say "yes" instantly. It's just more fun to play this way by far.

    And regarding your last sentence, why impact BM because people are slow to learn the mecanics during progress ? It's fixed when people are experienced.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapstarz View Post
    Can you reply to my question then ? Fire has the same mobility as BM in exec phase, the only phase that matters during progression. Will you apply the same logic here or not ?

    I agree with you, BM has it easy to learn the fight but you can argue that if you are ONLY learning the mecanics meaning you pull bosses without intent to kill and learn the mecanics then it's the same. A lot of guild don't care about numbers before the boss is in kill range due to people having learned the mecanics so shrug.

    Your example with Gingi is totaly true, you can even ask every top player "Would you rather be free of movement during progress" they would say "yes" instantly. It's just more fun to play this way by far.

    And regarding your last sentence, why impact BM because people are slow to learn the mecanics during progress ? It's fixed when people are experienced.
    Even after learning the mechanics of a progression boss, a lot of things can still go wrong because of human errors. The simplicity and freedom of BM reduces the risk of human errors. This applies to even WF raiders. You can see it as a risk-reward system, where BM is low risk but also low reward.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Even after learning the mechanics of a progression boss, a lot of things can still go wrong because of human errors. The simplicity and freedom of BM reduces the risk of human errors. This applies to even WF raiders. You can see it as a risk-reward system, where BM is low risk but also low reward.
    By that logic, why wouldn’t all top guilds just roll with all BM spec since it allows everyone to so casually and easily do mechanics and rotation? World first on every boss is the goal right?

  19. #99
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    I dont think we should look at world first races and such.
    In casual and semi-hardcore guilds there are alotta different classes I guess, or am I mistaken?

    Bring the player not the class was a story from another dimension, now people stack w/e works the best for current end-game content.
    Anyway, its more like "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome" when it comes to races
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
    By that logic, why wouldn’t all top guilds just roll with all BM spec since it allows everyone to so casually and easily do mechanics and rotation? World first on every boss is the goal right?
    Extremes... extremes...

    There are other important factors than just “ease of play”. (I think you know that)

    Im just saying that BM is a low risk spec which is a strength in itself.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-05-10 at 11:43 AM.

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