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  1. #101
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    I know it's an unfair comparison, since the Live/BFA team is working forward while the Classic team is set out according to a pretty already-mapped-out plan, but it's such a gigantic difference in the level of passion that comes out of their communication. Live is run by suits, while Classic feels like it's run by gamers.

    That is of course an overexaggeration and a simplification, but comparing to the dev posts we get from BFA, one of the biggest differences is that BFA is trying to be a smörgåsbord for every. single. type. of. player in the universe. It feels like they are afraid of making a single piece of the community annoyed, and thus BFA is this grey goo no one really enjoys a lot. Meanwhile Classic devs/posts doesn't apologize for what it's trying to be. I miss WoW being developed by passionate gamers (go look at early BlizzCon WoW design videos if you need any proof), and not PR managers that plays Excel sheets, trying to artificially calculate "fun" more than the game itself.

    I would respect BFA more if Blizzard just flat out stated what they want modern WoW to be;
    "Look, we want this Theme Park action RPG style of WoW, the times of having to play for weeks in order to get geared enough to merely get into a raid is never coming back. We want players to see all content quickly and if they want a challenge they can go into high m+ or heroic raids", because at least then they've made their design paradigm clear. Instead, as mentioned, it's as if they are afraid to upset anyone at all.

    This decision to not have items change between phases will upset some players, but they've made their points really, really clear why they choose to do this. And honestly I am not too convinced people would have much fun having items in their banks that are trash now due to early-classic itemization, but in an unknown amount of weeks or months will become BiS or a clear upgrade when the next phase rolls out.

    Their reasonable goals are clear and they are working towards that goal. BFA is more like an amorphous goo that is being pulled in all directions at once.
    I suppose I can hope for Classic to be popular enough that Blizzard takes a step back and looks at why players in Classic are so much more willing to do very repetitive tasks for minor upgrades (hint: it's because they needed those upgrades in order to progress, it wasn't just a +2% overall dps in already cleared content, but maybe the difference of seeing the first boss of that content at all).
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-04-27 at 05:26 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Rank 8 to 10 PvP gear shouldn't shit on raid gear tho, that's the only thing I hope they'll change progressively.
    PvP system will not be available at start, so I think that covers that.
    Bow to your Gnomish Overlords! Attempting to take over Azeroth since 2005.

  3. #103
    I'm pretty sure WoW Classic isn't about raiding and having that same feel we had in Vanilla when after XXX wipes we down that raid boss.
    NO. I'm pretty sure this is about that "alt" feeling when you know everything about the raiding content and just creat another toon/alt to have fun with.
    At least this is what I'm planning to do, change the factions, start with another main. If you try to recreate the same feeling you had in 2004-2006 by playing the exact faction and exact class, you will find yourself in disappointment isle.
    In fact, that is why we all played vanilla pservers anyway, just to "level an alt".

    Cheers!

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Actually, pretty sure threat meters couldn't actually pull properly back then because Blizzard didn't add threat to the API until later.
    Threat Meters indeed were quite different then, but they existed eventually - especially towards the end of Vanilla. It was a lot more work manually tracking threat, but it did work, and there were at least two addons doing the work - KTM (KLHThreatMeter) and the original Omen.

  5. #105
    A lot of you will be surprised how easy the content will be. People will clear MC (except Rag) on the day they hit 60. Nef will fall the day BWL will open.

    People will know how to perfectly play their characters, how to itemize them, and every single quirk and secret about the boss mechanics. Also you have to keep in mind that "Look yo, that boss makes fire on the floor, and you must walk out of that." was like the craziest mechanic for raiders in those days (and sometimes the only mechanic the boss had), while today this is just one minor mechanic of basically every boss that usually isn't even mentioned when discussing tactics because just everyone knows what to do.

    Considering that you have to understand that gear that time was made for people who know nothing, can't play their char, have no plan and can't avoid shit. So the stuff you loot from 60's dungeons will make MC a cake-walk, Dire Maul gear will make BWL easy, and so on, simply because even the worst LFR raider today will still play better than the the average raider in classic.

  6. #106
    This is my preferred option. Old itemisation is just a set of problems in Classic that Blizzard noticed and addressed within its lifespan. I don't think players should have to wait between patches for fixes to the game. Sure, that's less authentic, but it's much better for the game. It'd also be pretty annoying to get information about something online if it's going to change every patch.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    There is no hypothetical. What you are talking about is nonsense. Sit back down.
    I'm sure it looks like non sense to someone that has no idea what progressive itemization is. The amount of imbeciles revealing themselves keeps increasing.

    A correlation seems like a hard concept to grasp, donut brains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    All you've literally done is bitch about them not having progressive itemization. You haven't made a single argument about why that's bad.
    Go back and read my posts, stop trying so hard to look like a half wit searching for pointless conflict

  8. #108
    This team knows what its doing. Unlike the BFA team, I actually trust these guys.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    I'm sure it looks like non sense to someone that has no idea what progressive itemization is. The amount of imbeciles revealing themselves keeps increasing.

    A correlation seems like a hard concept to grasp, donut brains

    - - - Updated - - -



    Go back and read my posts, stop trying so hard to look like a half wit searching for pointless conflict
    Or, and hear me out on this, you could stop being so damn cringe worthy and explain.

    I get that not following the original patch design for items will definitely throw a curve into how the fights were originally designed (warlocks gonna be scary), but theres no need to name call and insult.

    I, like others, mostly worry about what PvP items will do. Those wanting to do the top tier raid on a top tier schedule will for sure have a PvP focus for the "BiS" gear.

  10. #110
    I fully endorse this itemization policy in classic.
    If every item had multiple stages where it is trash or where it is BiS, this would be a clusterfuck.

    And everybody would need a big list and basically look up every item ever looted, because it might become great a few months later.

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    Can anybody enlighten me, why developers back then thought warrior setpieces could use spirit or rogues need intellect?
    Was this just a bug, a mistake in stat allocation or was there some intend behind that decision?

    If I remember correctly every stat did something for everybody or not?
    Intellect gave spellpower and spellcrit right? So, did a rogues' poison benefit from int for example? I played one in vanilla but I don't remember.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by G3 Ghost View Post
    Or, and hear me out on this, you could stop being so damn cringe worthy and explain.

    I get that not following the original patch design for items will definitely throw a curve into how the fights were originally designed (warlocks gonna be scary), but theres no need to name call and insult.

    I, like others, mostly worry about what PvP items will do. Those wanting to do the top tier raid on a top tier schedule will for sure have a PvP focus for the "BiS" gear.
    I've already explained this countless times, the problem is that people don't know what progressive itemization is and for some reason correlating progressive itemization with non-progressive itemization seems like a hard concept to grasp. Others just have no idea exactly how better some gear becomes. We're talking about gear that is sometimes 2x, 3x better than it should be at the start of the game.

    The blue pvp sets are a good example to exemplify this, the non-upgraded pvp blue set for mages has like 60 spellpower, most pieces don't have it.

    The upgraded blue pvp set has got substantially better raw stats, more crit, some hit and around double the amount of spellpower. The upgraded blue pvp set is better than bloody non-upgraded full t2

    A mage with pre-raid bis on a non-progressive server has got better gear than a fully mc geared mage on a progressive itemization server. This makes raids which are already easy, too easy.



    Telling me "oh raiding in vanilla is easy anyway" isn't an excuse to making it even easier
    Last edited by tikcol; 2019-04-27 at 11:40 AM.

  12. #112
    Elemental Lord Orby's Avatar
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    I have always been very indifferent to the whole progressive items thing, but I totally see why some people will be disappointed.

    Progressive itemization is a very slippery slope, where does it end? Progressive skill trees, progressive zones, progressive mobs? So many changes were made so many things over each patch that I am sure it'll be murder to institute everything to be exact. It;s still vanilla it's juts not one of the major concerns for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallor View Post
    This team knows what its doing. Unlike the BFA team, I actually trust these guys.
    me too. Constant updates and interacts with the community, already 2 above the current team :P
    "Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat—that's the key" - Geralt of Rivia

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    I've already explained this countless times, the problem is that people don't know what progressive itemization is and for some reason correlating progressive itemization with non-progressive itemization seems like a hard concept to grasp. Others just have no idea exactly how better some gear becomes. We're talking about gear that is sometimes 2x, 3x better than it should be at the start of the game.

    The blue pvp sets are a good example to exemplify this, the non-upgraded pvp blue set for mages has like 60 spellpower, most pieces don't have it.

    The upgraded blue pvp set has got substantially better raw stats, more crit, some hit and around double the amount of spellpower. The upgraded blue pvp set is better than bloody non-upgraded full t2

    A mage with pre-raid bis on a non-progressive server has got better gear than a fully mc geared mage on a progressive itemization server. This makes raids which are already easy, too easy.



    Telling me "oh raiding in vanilla is easy anyway" isn't an excuse to making it even easier
    As far as I see it, let people suffer. When they realize that guilds will force them to PvP and when they get stomped by people in PvP gear on meters/PvP they'll come complaining en masse.

    The truth is that private servers handle these things really well because it's well worth to avoid the final itemization.

    People who have no clue will always believe otherwise until they have to face the messed up itemization themselves.

  14. #114
    Bloodsail Admiral Chemii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    And I'm saying I agree with them.
    I appear to have quoted the wrong person lol

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    As far as I see it, let people suffer. When they realize that guilds will force them to PvP and when they get stomped by people in PvP gear on meters/PvP they'll come complaining en masse.

    The truth is that private servers handle these things really well because it's well worth to avoid the final itemization.

    People who have no clue will always believe otherwise until they have to face the messed up itemization themselves.
    Yes, there will probably be such guilds. Guilds full of try-hards hardcore wannabes who are stuck in BfA mentality. If guild forces players to PvP, that guild won't survive long because leaders and members clearly have different goals. I wouldn't want to be in such guild.

    Good thing is Classic is not about playing latest patch, progression can be done at your own pace and there will be guilds for everyone's pace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    I've already explained this countless times, the problem is that people don't know what progressive itemization is and for some reason correlating progressive itemization with non-progressive itemization seems like a hard concept to grasp.
    You are wrong. "Not knowing" and disagreeing with you are two different things.

    If you aren't aware, majority of players didn't start at very beginning of vanilla. Most started later at some point during vanilla. Even then only tiny minority got to raiding before final (or close to final) itemisation became available. Having latest patch item stats is much closer to vanilla experience than you think.

    Progressive itemisation is clusterfuck waiting to happen. Knowing that item that sucks will not suck few months later makes massive difference. That alone guarantees that classic will be nothing like vanilla. People will have to look up every looted item to check what stats item will have in next patch. Its terrible idea all around.
    Bow to your Gnomish Overlords! Attempting to take over Azeroth since 2005.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    Yes, there will probably be such guilds. Guilds full of try-hards hardcore wannabes who are stuck in BfA mentality. If guild forces players to PvP, that guild won't survive long because leaders and members clearly have different goals. I wouldn't want to be in such guild.

    Good thing is Classic is not about playing latest patch, progression can be done at your own pace and there will be guilds for everyone's pace.

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    You are wrong. "Not knowing" and disagreeing with you are two different things.

    If you aren't aware, majority of players didn't start at very beginning of vanilla. Most started later at some point during vanilla. Even then only tiny minority got to raiding before final (or close to final) itemisation became available. Having latest patch item stats is much closer to vanilla experience than you think.

    Progressive itemisation is clusterfuck waiting to happen. Knowing that item that sucks will not suck few months later makes massive difference. That alone guarantees that classic will be nothing like vanilla. People will have to look up every looted item to check what stats item will have in next patch. Its terrible idea all around.
    You seem to disagree with me, those guys up there didn't disagree with me, they were talking about something they didn't understand. All your points are valid points, I just think you're underestimating the impact 1.12 itemization will have on early raids at least up until AQ

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I don't even really disagree with this approach but with every single update they give us I get less excited about Classic. I spent years arguing that it would happen someday and when they finally announced it I was stupidly excited for it. Now I don't even know if I'll try it. If it was JUST this I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it, but literally everything great about playing a warrior or rogue was patched out by 1.12.

    1.12 warrior PvP wasn't nearly as fun as warrior PvP prior to that, but it was worse for literally everyone fighting against the warrior. Incoming chain mace stuns. People who didn't play a warrior in vanilla will never know the joy of rage generation before Blizzard screwed with it. Rogues will never know the barman shanker grind and that satisfying feeling of one-shotting a cloth wearer after. The things that I actually enjoyed about Vanilla (Earlier unadulterated PvE/PvP and un-messed with classes) are gone forever.
    You weren't going to play from the beginning, you are only around the classic forums to shit on the game. Good riddance.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-04-27 at 02:27 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    I did read them. Again, all you've done is whine about this being a bad thing. You've never made a single argument as to why it's bad.
    You might be reading your own posts

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    If you actually made an argument, I don't know why it would be so hard for you to just quote it.

    Not sure how you expect me to make an argument when you haven't made one in the first place. What do I argue against? It's like someone telling me "X is bad because I said so". How do I argue against that?
    You need to try harder this time

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    Alright well clearly you're just talking out of your ass and have no argument at all.
    If you didn't start by saying I had no argument from the very first post I presented one I could take you seriously

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