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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    .. But if there was some kind of virtual environment that could be made to sandbox the client without accessing your drive, they could legally do that. The game client, and files, are not yours. And no, Blizzard allowing you to do "client-side character model alteration" does not mean that those are yours. They are simply allowing that.
    This is actually a really interesting point, as something like Google Stadia does exactly that. In the future it absolutely will be more clean cut, since 100% of the Game or Service will be run from the server, with you only accessing it from outside; no client software needed.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    That's part of the issue too. He has a definition of GaaS, which is great. But that definition doesn't... technically matter? I mean, outside of discussion purposes. It's different to different people, and more importantly, it's different to different companies.
    We are having a discussion. We have been having a discussion all over. The fact that you don't think we are having one makes me think you are not even considering my words. But if that were true why would you be replying to me consistently? If you don't think GaaS matters why in the flying foxes are you even posting in this thread.

    I have given you my definition, you give me yours. You have been telling me GaaS is not fraud. So what is GaaS to you? I stand behind Ross' definition. You seem to not have one. If you don't have a definition, why the heck do you have such strong opinions on them? Why does it matter? It matters because Ross' video is the thread title. His definition matters the most. You can argue against it, but we are sure as squirrels all here because he made one.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Howso? Bad Faith is a very specific thing, regarding misleading. Servers going offline if/when a company closes is not by any means bad faith.
    In the video Ross talks about this quite a bit. If you are making a game and requiring server authentication, you have to know that server will not be up forever. If you don't plan for after this eventuality you are acting in bad faith. You are selling games that you know will be bricked. In some cases this is hurting consumers and adding no functionality.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Fraud is... pretty much always illegal. When is it not? That's like saying theft is legal, as long as you don't get caught.
    Not true, I have linked you the definition many times and you have made the choice to ignore it, so here is the legal definition.
    https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/
    Companies are damaging purchased products after the fact. That is legally fraud. Show me a case where this is not true. You keep telling me there are cases but you have not linked any.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I don't disagree on that part. People do make noise about it, and that's a good thing. I'm a big fan of Anthem, but it's a prime example of the crappy situation both Devs, Studios, and Players are in.
    If you do not disagree with me why do you keep arguing with me? Why are you using language that makes people feel shouted down. Why are you trying to end the conversation?
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    When did I say they don't? I was merely pointing out that saying something is illegal because you don't like it, then do something. And if you DO do something (or people do something) and it doesn't pan out... That doesn't just make it 'honorifically illegal' or something. The law states what it is, until the law is changed. People definitely have the ability to help change that, and it will, in time. But until then, that doesn't give people to just ignore or violate it.
    I was making my point clear, not everything is about you.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    As far as the mod thing, that's sort of unrelated. Discussion is going on. It's not my obligation to agree with discussion just because I'm a moderator. That said, I'm an advocate of truth. Being "Correct" is more important that being "Right", and even if Ross is advocating good things somehow (pushing to change law on games),
    A mod is defined as: an arbitrator or mediator. Your tone is very negative and brings the discussion down. You keep telling people they are wrong when they say what they stand for, I still don't know what you believe. You mediate nothing. You antagonize. You are acting as a BAD MODERATOR. Random forum members should not have to tell the Mods to calm down. Chill bro, we all love video games here.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    doing so by being confusing, making false statements, and contradicting himself in favor of his idea (even if its an idea I agree with) is something I personally don't advocate.

    In theory, I'd advocate a person I don't agree with who speaks truth, than a person I agree with that lies to get their point across.

    That and he's obnoxious as a youtuber, but that has no relevance to his statement, message, or validity.
    I guess that's one thing you believe in. Ross lies and is a bad faith actor. I totally disagree. Ross believes in what he is saying. Since you don't even believe his definition of GaaS matters then how could he be wrong? If GaaS is not real, how could they be fraud?

    If him being obnoxious does not matter, why do you bring it up? That little dig there makes your whole comment seem petty. You are an official here, please do not debase yourself with such low-bro insults to win your arguments.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by mcnally86 View Post
    Chill bro, we all love video games here.
    Ironic statement coming from a guy defending a clickbait youtuber trying to preach to the gamer outrage bubble about "bad practices". Pretty sure people that get a kick out of videos like this don't actually play games, they watch youtube videos to find out what they should be mad about.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Ironic statement coming from a guy defending a clickbait youtuber trying to preach to the gamer outrage bubble about "bad practices". Pretty sure people that get a kick out of videos like this don't actually play games, they watch youtube videos to find out what they should be mad about.
    Check your data. Ross makes half life videos, and videos documenting old games. He makes maps of ancient shareware racing games. I can't think of something more nerdy and less click baity.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Mister Cheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Ironic statement coming from a guy defending a clickbait youtuber trying to preach to the gamer outrage bubble about "bad practices". Pretty sure people that get a kick out of videos like this don't actually play games, they watch youtube videos to find out what they should be mad about.
    Ross is a clickbait youtuber... jesus christ.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by mcnally86 View Post
    Check your data. Ross makes half life videos, and videos documenting old games. He makes maps of ancient shareware racing games. I can't think of something more nerdy and less click baity.
    The literal title of this video is in fact click bait.

    Other posters have already commented about how he picks and choose when and where he can use the term, aka typical click bait "my point is the only one" strat youtubers use.

    Even if I'm wrong and this video is literally a one off for him guess what? It's still click bait, it's still trying to get cheap likes from the "gamers rise up!" crowd. So do I need to check any data? Nope. Title of the video uses a broad term to generalize, then generalizes them with a sensational word such as "fraud" that is clickbait 101. Check your own data before defending this shit. No one asked for this to be posted here, but it was and the video is rightfully getting roasted for the garbage it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Cheese View Post
    Ross is a clickbait youtuber... jesus christ.
    As I said above "Title of the video uses a broad term to generalize, then generalizes them with a sensational word such as "fraud" that is clicbait 101. "

    Do you really think I'm gonna go and research or give a fuck about this guy just because you want to defend him? If you don't want me calling him click bait, maybe he shouldn't have made one of the most click bait video titles I have seen all year. The title and idea of the video is stupid, sorry I don't care that you have followed him for 20 years and where best buds in high school. Imagine being such a fan boy for someone you think people should research their history as if they give any shits.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Someone is mad about Wildstar being shut down.

    He has some good points, though.
    T'was a sad day.

  8. #128
    I wouldn't call it a fraud. Most games wouldn't get regular updates if they didn't have any consistent revenue because that's how they pay employees to continue working on the same game.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by mcnally86 View Post
    .Eventually, it takes him a while. He does not like the idea of anything he purchased going away but he does not find MMO's that fraudulent. When you play an MMO, you are renting time, you know exactly when your access will run out. When you buy a game that turns out to be a GAAS you do not know when your access to your game will disappear.
    Thia comes down to a matter of presentation and pricing, I think.

    When you go to watch a concert you pay admission and gain the "service" of the experience, but not unlimited access to that experience in perpetuity. In fact the very nature of the experience is temporary, and in some cases unique.

    Where I think a lot of the confusion comes from with games are all the different business models. For example: WoW charges the price of a full AAA game for each expansion, causing many people to equate it with a full game in their eyes. This idea is further confused by Blizzard presenting it as a product which is separate from the subscription.

    And when each other game on the market is presenting their own service, with different pay models and different styles of content....it gets messy real fast.

    For instance, Netflix doesn't charge you $50 up front to activate their service. Nor do they charge extra each time a new wave of content is released. They only charge just a subscription. But at any point you could go buy a copy of any show on Netflix, and watch it whenever you please without subbing, or even if Netflix shut down.

    Another contrasting example is like buying access to a theme park. You get to go in and experience the park, but once it shuts down you generally can't ever go back. You can't buy a copy of that experience anywhere.


    I think that's how we need to view this state of affairs:
    "Games-as-a-service" aren't games in the traditional sense They're selling us access to online amusement parks with limited lifespans.

    Is that fraud? I don't know. They're advertising and presented like traditional games. I think they could do a better job of being clear about what their product actually is, but as this thread and the video are a testament to, nobody can seem to agree on an exact definition.

    Wjat I do know is tjat we, as gamers and consumers, need to be SUPER skeptical and careful about paying for these "services". Especially considering it's nearly impossible to get a refund if that service is lacking in any way.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-04-30 at 05:34 AM.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  10. #130
    Elemental Lord Yunru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is actually a really interesting point, as something like Google Stadia does exactly that. In the future it absolutely will be more clean cut, since 100% of the Game or Service will be run from the server, with you only accessing it from outside; no client software needed.
    Google Stadia should be simply boycotted. And not just stadia, other gogle products to. And same goes for any other video game developer that trys to implent it in same way, as a soon you let them do this, everyone starts to copy it.
    We dont want to get this thing normalized like it was with micro-trash.

    Not to mention the internet for this in some countrys will get super expensive.
    However i am perfectly fine with services (yes services, not games), that allows you to use a pc on other side of the world to play your games smootly. (if your pc is trash) And yes that already exists.

  11. #131
    The only games that do stop service are ones way past thier time, the costs of operating the server alone dont make keeping an outdated game in operation.

    Fact is most of the time a player would have got more than thier moneys worth out of the game, it would be arrogant to assume your entitled to keep playing something that has past its life, if you still want to play a version of that game there are always private servers.

    At a certain point every MMO will need to die at some point.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Google Stadia should be simply boycotted. And not just stadia, other gogle products to. And same goes for any other video game developer that trys to implent it in same way, as a soon you let them do this, everyone starts to copy it.
    We dont want to get this thing normalized like it was with micro-trash.

    Not to mention the internet for this in some countrys will get super expensive.
    However i am perfectly fine with services (yes services, not games), that allows you to use a pc on other side of the world to play your games smootly. (if your pc is trash) And yes that already exists.
    I don't know about that. A lot depends on what's being offered and how much it costs. So much of what we do is tied to being online anyway, I'm not sure how much it wpuld matter for gaming.

    Now...other stuff, such as personal files and storage....thats something a little different. But we already have things lile email and Dropbox and image storing, as well as facebook profiles, online banking, etc.

    I don't think it would be as bad as you think. But maybe we can talk about some of the pros and cons.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by HitRefresh View Post
    I wouldn't call it a fraud. Most games wouldn't get regular updates if they didn't have any consistent revenue because that's how they pay employees to continue working on the same game.
    Back in the day, we called those "updates" addons.
    Updates in forms of patches/bugfixes are also more or less covered with the sold copy. (just like you have guarantees after purchasing something)

    Not only has that company to provide a working *product*, it also is bad for their own image if they release a broken game with lots of bugs that won't get adressed in a patch for free.

    The most interesting part of this bullshit is that I can't resell my "good" anymore - even though it's legaly my own property.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-04-30 at 10:14 AM.

  14. #134
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Google Stadia should be simply boycotted. And not just stadia, other gogle products to. And same goes for any other video game developer that trys to implent it in same way, as a soon you let them do this, everyone starts to copy it.
    We dont want to get this thing normalized like it was with micro-trash.
    I doubt Stadia will ever be a thing besides another failed Google product.
    Not to mention the internet for this in some countrys will get super expensive.
    However i am perfectly fine with services (yes services, not games), that allows you to use a pc on other side of the world to play your games smootly. (if your pc is trash) And yes that already exists.
    I have a problem with that. If your PC is trash then it needs to be replaced and not relocated to some place in the world. The idea of the $2k PC is what perpetuates this Cloud Gaming nonsense. This will only enforce that hardware prices need to go up instead of down.
    Last edited by Vash The Stampede; 2019-04-30 at 01:57 PM.

  15. #135
    Elemental Lord OneWay's Avatar
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    Games as service is simple - they have server, you pay for access to the server and "other services". In short, games as service. Not all games are like that and that is fine. Case closed.
    "The Dark Lady chooses her champions well."

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Is that fraud? I don't know. They're advertising and presented like traditional games. I think they could do a better job of being clear about what their product actually is, but as this thread and the video are a testament to, nobody can seem to agree on an exact definition.
    I'm kind of here too. I defiantly think more games should have an end of life plan. If you are not planning to keep your games going as a producer, then do you really stand behind the quality of your product? It's a little sad and it makes companies seemed embarrassed of what they are making.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Back in the day, we called those "updates" addons.
    Updates in forms of patches/bugfixes are also more or less covered with the sold copy. (just like you have guarantees after purchasing something)

    Not only has that company to provide a working *product*, it also is bad for their own image if they release a broken game with lots of bugs that won't get adressed in a patch for free.

    The most interesting part of this bullshit is that I can't resell my "good" anymore - even though it's legaly my own property.
    You could sell your disc/cartridge...

    Are you complaining that you can't sell installed games that you bought in a digital platform? GL in making that work.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcnally86 View Post
    A mod is defined as: an arbitrator or mediator. Your tone is very negative and brings the discussion down. You keep telling people they are wrong when they say what they stand for, I still don't know what you believe. You mediate nothing. You antagonize. You are acting as a BAD MODERATOR. Random forum members should not have to tell the Mods to calm down. Chill bro, we all love video games here.
    Their main job here is to make sure forum rules are followed. Outside of that they are entitled to their own opinions and post just like anybody else.
    Last edited by kail; 2019-04-30 at 01:23 PM.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    The literal title of this video is in fact click bait.
    What is click bait and why is it bad? Also, why is it bad to stay on the topic that is the title of the video? Why does the relative strength of words in a title either? I love Popeye's Chicken but I have more experience with chicken then the sensational cartoon Popeye. Is that click bait? What is click bait and why is it bad?



    "CLICK BAIT: NOT EVEN ONCE!"

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    They are, It isn't a 1hr video its a 10sec read....

    I mean, all things are relative. 10 seconds may be short in general, but 10 seconds of Kotaku vs 1 hours of not-Kotaku isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    You could sell your disc/cartridge...

    Are you complaining that you can't sell installed games that you bought in a digital platform? GL in making that work.
    It's not a necessity to design games that require you to register them on some platform. (including steam)
    It's what they did to make reselling impossible/much more difficult.

    How's selling my disc helping when many modern PC games only have 50% of the required files to install a game on that disc, and you need to register it somewhere to get the next 50% to actually play it.
    And when you re-sell it, the buyer can't use it because the key/game is already registered to an account.

    It shouldn't be a problem/more than a mousclick to detach my Cd-key from my account, so I can resell that same code.
    I mean, I know why they won't make it so, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

    But that re-selling stuff is just part of the problem.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-04-30 at 03:16 PM.

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