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  1. #1

    Subtlety PvP hotfixes

    • Shadowstrike no longer deals reduced damage in PvP (was a 10% reduction).
    • Eviscerate no longer deals reduced damage in PvP (was a 15% reduction).
    • Mastery: Executioner is now reduced by 20% in PvP (was 33%).

    This ain't solving any gameplay issues but AW HELL YEAH, FINALLY! FRACKEDYFRACK YAAAA!
    First order of business: Transmog over that stupid, over-the-top dagger I have right now, because there's no need to compensate anymore. The time for tickling is over!

    Couldn't be happier. Can't wait to see this go live.

  2. #2
    still not enough. PvE wise sub is still garbage.

  3. #3
    Well, these were dedicated PvP fixes after all. As you know if you've played sub any time during now and october (? I believe) 2018, it was just absolutely gutted in terms of damage. No comparison to its state in PvE.

    The abundant CC was its saving grace for arena, where you could still pull off playing the spec, but anywhere else subtlety all but vanished.

  4. #4
    i only played it in 2s with fire and some rbgs it was decent in attack team on efc due to [shadow dance+cheap shot] stunbotting healers, in all other segments it was outshined by both specs

  5. #5
    High Overlord Atraxxa's Avatar
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    I'd like to hear the thoughts from some of the more experienced pvp rogues out there, does this buff make the spec the go to pvp spec for RBGs, 3's ect. or at least on par with assassination?
    You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You might not agree with or fully understand the answer, but, it is correct because of reasons.”

  6. #6
    Bit more damage. Still shit. As for PvE, obviously this changes nothing, but it looks like at least they are looking at Sub and haven't forgotten it. Sadly, any rework will be done in 9.0 which is ridiculous since they "reworked" Sub by literally REMOVING PvP and PvE talents since BFA launch. Maybe we will see some unforseen meta with the new Essences but that's about it. The spec itself will still be shit even then cause essences will be removed in the new expansion. Meanwhile Sin and Outlaw WORK fine without essences.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ornith View Post
    still not enough. PvE wise sub is still garbage.
    These are all literally PvP fixes. Nothing to do with PvE.

  8. #8
    These damage bandaids don't address any of the mechanical issues with the spec.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Kemsa's Avatar
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    Ok when i read those "hotfixes" i really really feel uncomfortable how blizz addressed the not so popular specs.
    Blizzard doesnt want to "embrace" that Subtlty its actually the "ninja" version of rogue since Pandaria, they still want to mantain the "its assassination but with shadow damage" , no no no god damn!! there are tons of abilities and changes they can make for the spec to feel unique.

    I never ever thought sub was this horrible balanced by blizzard.

  10. #10
    Subtlety's rotation remains very dumbed down in a PvP setting. Keep up NB. Use Eviscerate with 5cp. Stack CDs when bursting and use Cheap Shot and Shadow Strike as your builders.

    The crowd control is also super dumbed down. Sap remains the most exciting ability Sub has but it's not enough. Pre-Legion Subtlety had Dance Saps also, but it had Crippling Poison, Gouge, Dismantle, a whole variety of other tools. Subtlety now has had so much variety deleted from the gameplay which leads to a linear rotation and linear utility.

    This spec was almost perfect for PvP the way it was designed in Cata, MoP, even WoD. If the designers valued that, we'd have a version today which builds on that awesome gameplay. Instead we get a sad, stupid, one dimensional Cheap Shot bot.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    Ok when i read those "hotfixes" i really really feel uncomfortable how blizz addressed the not so popular specs.
    Blizzard doesnt want to "embrace" that Subtlty its actually the "ninja" version of rogue since Pandaria, they still want to mantain the "its assassination but with shadow damage" , no no no god damn!! there are tons of abilities and changes they can make for the spec to feel unique.

    I never ever thought sub was this horrible balanced by blizzard.
    As you said, they are hotfixes - meant to solve number issues, not supposed to correct any design flaws. I can't remember a hotfix ever tempering with design.

    As far as PvP damage goes, the spec should be fine now. At least.
    If we're hoping for a fix to anything else, we'll likely have to wait for 9.0 (or being super optimistic, 8.2.5/8.3). For now, this is probably all we can expect.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    Ok when i read those "hotfixes" i really really feel uncomfortable how blizz addressed the not so popular specs.
    Blizzard doesnt want to "embrace" that Subtlty its actually the "ninja" version of rogue since Pandaria, they still want to mantain the "its assassination but with shadow damage" , no no no god damn!! there are tons of abilities and changes they can make for the spec to feel unique.

    I never ever thought sub was this horrible balanced by blizzard.
    I don't think you should see these hotfixes as Blizzard's attitude towards class design. Blizzard have somewhat admitted that the current class design in the game is in a bad state. The also relates to the azerite system. Unfortunately, it is currently too late for them to make major changes in this expansion, so we will just have to wait.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    As far as PvP damage goes, the spec should be fine now. At least.
    The spec still falls very short of what other classes can do and also not worth it for big damage encounter BGs. The problem with subtlety is that in order for it to shine all other classes must be improved to tolerate what the spec can do in the hands of a skilled player.

    Wait and see the mountain of complaints when the new classic hits to remind the players what real sub is like.

    They can't handle the super CC + great damage scenario for anyone except the classes they want to boost every expansion. I was sub most of my life and really dissappointed to see my favorite spec just dwindle between non existent and plain mediocre just because of the super whine in official forums by fotm players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I don't think you should see these hotfixes as Blizzard's attitude towards class design. Blizzard have somewhat admitted that the current class design in the game is in a bad state. The also relates to the azerite system. Unfortunately, it is currently too late for them to make major changes in this expansion, so we will just have to wait.
    Adjusting the spec by over +10% shows that their data sheets were suddenly screaming: "MAJOR FUCK UP DETECTED".

    We were used to seeing adjustments of +1/-1% and it was already infuriating now suddenly the major finisher gets such a huge buff? This means that in their effort to direct everyone to the more controllable specs (assa especially) they completely destroyed sub.

    Players are very smart nowdays if a spec doesn't perform noone plays it. Effectively they left us with 1 and a half specs for pvp and if we want to be realistic outlaw in pvp is not exactly well represented.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Adjusting the spec by over +10% shows that their data sheets were suddenly screaming: "MAJOR FUCK UP DETECTED".

    We were used to seeing adjustments of +1/-1% and it was already infuriating now suddenly the major finisher gets such a huge buff? This means that in their effort to direct everyone to the more controllable specs (assa especially) they completely destroyed sub.

    Players are very smart nowdays if a spec doesn't perform noone plays it. Effectively they left us with 1 and a half specs for pvp and if we want to be realistic outlaw in pvp is not exactly well represented.
    What does this have to do with my comment?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What does this have to do with my comment?
    Class Balance gets confused with Class Design all too frequently.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  16. #16
    There's a common denominator. Damage numbers, just like class design, do have an impact on how your class feels. If you're super weak to the point where anything you're doing is inconsequential, the class can have a great design, it would still not be fun to play.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What does this have to do with my comment?
    Your comment is so vague that it is open to all kinds of interpretations. Whats your problem with what I said anyway? You say these are not class design changes. And I say "yeah if they switch +10/-10 this means they fucked something up major".

    In both cases we have the same issue: Blizzard not caring about class design (they left it "as is" since Legion and gave us glorified trinkets to do the rest) and then they woke up one day and saw that noone was playing sub in either pve or pvp and thought "hmmmm fixing sub for pve would be complicated but let it be represented in random BGs" and added those "hotfixes".

    Again not sure why you have a problem with my post when yours is as vague as it gets.

    Please stay on topic. We all know what blizzard did to classes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Your comment is so vague that it is open to all kinds of interpretations. Whats your problem with what I said anyway? You say these are not class design changes. And I say "yeah if they switch +10/-10 this means they fucked something up major".

    In both cases we have the same issue: Blizzard not caring about class design (they left it "as is" since Legion and gave us glorified trinkets to do the rest) and then they woke up one day and saw that noone was playing sub in either pve or pvp and thought "hmmmm fixing sub for pve would be complicated but let it be represented in random BGs" and added those "hotfixes".

    Again not sure why you have a problem with my post when yours is as vague as it gets.

    Please stay on topic. We all know what blizzard did to classes.
    What you said was not wrong or anything, it was just not relevant to my previous comment. It’s like:

    - Me: “I like ice cream”
    - You: “Yeah but water is wet”

    Do the two things even relate
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-05-02 at 06:51 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    These are all literally PvP fixes. Nothing to do with PvE.
    that’s.... what I was talking about?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What you said was not wrong or anything, it was just not relevant to my previous comment. It’s like:

    - Me: “I like ice cream”
    - You: “Yeah but water is wet”

    Do the two things even relate
    Im sorry I ever quotted you now can you get off my back please? Thanks a lot, goodbye.

    And just so you know not all of us are native English speakers and focusing on our reading comprehension instead of the topic at hand is not nice.
    Last edited by Motorman; 2019-05-02 at 09:21 AM.

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