Incels, and what social isolation does to the mind

[Kathandira]

We have two different view points on this, because all that man has to do is say no to your requests and what are you going to do, yell at him? I would rather not have to "ask someone else to give me money".

Another horrible side effect of only 1 income in the house.

What happens if your husband gets into a fatal accident? If a jobless, and experienceless wife gets left to raise children, and pay all the bills, what does she do? Now it is time for hand outs from government assistance. I mean, there is always life insurance, but that can only last so long. Now you have a single mother on welfare and hardly able to get by if at all.

I've been conditioning my fiance for this. I keep telling her, she needs to make as much as me, or more. And we need to live within 50% of one of our incomes. If I happen to die in a car wreck one day, she needs to be able to carry on without interruption.

[Moralgy]

Another horrible side effect of only 1 income in the house.

What happens if your husband gets into a fatal accident? If a jobless, and experienceless wife gets left to raise children, and pay all the bills, what does she do? Now it is time for hand outs from government assistance. I mean, there is always life insurance, but that can only last so long. Now you have a single mother on welfare and hardly able to get by if at all.

I've been conditioning my fiance for this. I keep telling her, she needs to make as much as me, or more. And we need to live within 50% of one of our incomes. If I happen to die in a car wreck one day, she needs to be able to carry on without interruption.

Exactly, even if I were to raise a child, I would never rely on a single income for this reason alone. You have to go into entry level jobs if you have been out of the workforce for long periods of time, and that just will not pay for raising a child. It is simply short sighted and one that spawns from a feeling of "safety" when this world is far from safe.

In my view the safest way to provide and raise a child is both parents working AND taking care of the child in the off chance one of you kick the bucket, or the other has a mental breakdown and breaks off the marriage, or many other events that can easily happen.

[Daimones]

Bull fucking shit no support exists.

Incels and people who are isolated like them don't need tools on Twitter telling them they are awesome because they have a penis/vagina or some trashcan fat pride manifesto on Reddit or whatever. They need help, from people who know what to give them. That means therapy and a social circle. More importantly, they need to want help and most importantly, to want to help themselves.

I was isolated myself. Lost my virginity at 24. I got over being isolated because I decided that enough was enough and I sought help, saw several psychologists and from there figured out what the fuck I wanted and was wrong with me. And my problem was that I was a lazy asshole with no drive to do anything but eat, sleep, fap and play video games. It wasn't society's fault, it wasn't my life experiences, it wasn't because of my beliefs, it wasn't because I have a dick, it sure as fuck wasn't my parent's fault, it was MY fault and I had to fix it. And when I got that into my thick skull, help, actually useful and constructive help, started lining up. I'm hardly a paragon of the modern world now, but I can admit my faults without being consumed by them.

I'll never judge an individual incel. Everyone is fighting their own battles and all that. But as a movement it is worthless, there's next to no actual support or drive to improve as a "community" there, it's all a big pile of wallowing in their own self-pity, when they don't go for woman-hating at least which is depressingly often. Nobody is actually helped by this shit just like nobody is actually helped by Tumblerinas spewing their horsecrap about the patriarchy or whatever. The first person that can fix your personal problems, is you. If you don't want to improve yourself, the entire world lining up in front of you to offer you everything won't help. If anything it might make you even worse. If the incel community can drill the idea of personal responsibility into the skulls of their "members", that would be a massive improvement.

Everyone goes through tough shit. Letting it define you is a personal feeling. Help exists to get you out of it, but if you refuse help, it's your ass. And the last thing you'd ever need is a group of people telling you those responsible for your problems are everyone but you.

I relate to this person in everything he said.

Pretty much some stuff as for other people here: School bullying. For 8 eight years straight in school and outside of it. That's when social isolation started to take effect. I lost my ability to socialize, sleep, focus, enjoy life. I had problems trusting people, no matter what their sex or race were. During this time i had friends yes, but still was just at home playing video games, escaping my problems. There was this one summer when i was sitting home one month in a row without going out at all. Yes, it was pretty bad. It lasted for eight years when i finally realized this is not right and started to seek help at the age of 23, because panic attacks started to appear daily, making my sleeping a living hell. My parents didn't help me, but i don't blame them, because i never told them how i feel and what i think with full honesty. Now i am in better place, even though still single and virgin at the age of 25. Nevertheless during this time i finished studies and military. During the last 2 years i graduated from my country's equivalent off college and moved to my own house and got a job from IT-field. The company has helped me a lot, because of the family mentality that they have there. Even though i am very shy person, it made my social skills rise a lot, they are now even better than they were before i fell to isolation. I now have male and female friends, leading into social circles, even though they are not very big. But i don't have to sit home all the time, i nowadays visit bars weekly and attend music festivals etc. I started eating more healthier, running, and going gym. I am doing this to make myself fell healthier. It will make my looks better, and raise confidence, but it's just extra for me. Also bought that super big Android TV, and took black metal themed tattoos because music is very important to me, and helps me daily to battle all the shit. I was in therapy for 2 years during my rise, and it helped me a lot to go further in life.

Tough shit yes, but i don't hate people. Not women or men, not other sexualities that have been on the rise in the last years. During the age of 24 i had a girlfriend for a while, but she never wanted to have sex, or spend time with me. Said that she never did have time. In the end i initiated the end of relationship. I tried to understand her and i had big though on this, it was not a impulse of mind. Her friends kinda freaked out when i told all of this what happened between us. But i don't still hate women. I don't have the school teacher mentality where a group of bullies are doing stupid things and punished, even though it was just the one person doing all the stuff.

It was the school bullying the lead to this. But i am not blaming people. If i have to blame, i blame myself for taking so much time to initiate ascension.

And the most important thing: no way i have given up. I have hope left. I will take the battle to get completely normal life, which, surprise surprise, means also having a girlfriend. My goal is not to be a super rich guy, or a rock star, just a guy with normal life filled with normal things and be unbound from all of this for good.

Thanks for reading and sorry for grammar mistakes.

[Kathandira]

What do you want me to spit out?

You are asking me to pick individual fulfilment, over how a society may be affected. Currently the West has declining birth rate, below replacement value, which has a bunch of consequences:

U.S. Births Dip To 30-Year Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...o-a-record-low


Our overall life expectancy is dropping, and deaths of despair are going up:

U.S. Life Expectancy Drops for Third Year in a Row, Reflecting Rising Drug Overdoses, Suicides
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...tes-180970942/

That motherhood has been turned into a caricature, and we are a nihilistic culture/nation should not be in dispute.

The question is, are you happy? If you are, do as you do.

Is this due to more women in the work force? Or could it have to do with the work force under compensating and in many cases not paying a livable wage? You would think if more households have 2 incomes rather than just 1, people would be able to afford to have children more than ever.

[Moralgy]

The question is, are you happy? If you are, do as you do.

Yes? So what is this cryptic response you gave that made you sound like you were drooling to spit out "but its destroying society" answer? You can't just agree with a basic premise that freedom of choice is good without going into a shtick about how we live in a society these days lol.

Agreed, you are free to make your own choices in life... and those choices have consequences that ripple for all of us as people choose in a society in aggregate.

[Nirn]

It is a strange set of beliefs. Like, as I said it all boils down to this person mocking me for wanting to focus on the single most important person(s) in my life, wishing others had that choice since I am beyond lucky to have it, and that I value close bonds and friendships and even that post is essentially "What a fucking loser cunt, shew ants to live in a nice home in the countryside, spend time with her daughter and have lots of close friends that do things outside of talk while toiling away under some bosses petty tyranny; What a fucking loser AM I RIGHT??!!"

Do you not wish to be enlightened, Theodarzna, and have it all?

[Moralgy]

Is this due to more women in the work force? Or could it have to do with the work force under compensating and in many cases not paying a livable wage? You would think if more households have 2 incomes rather than just 1, people would be able to afford to have children more than ever.

^^^^

The *actual reason* to what is causing this and not "women are choosing to work".

[Theodarzna]

We have two different view points on this, because all that man has to do is say no to your requests and what are you going to do, yell at him? I would rather not have to "ask someone else to give me money".

Destroy his life with the full legal endorsement of the US Court System? Plus I can only do this sort of life because I am already coming from a family that is fairly well off. He trusts that I won't, for example, cheat on him, or use my own powers to utterly ruin his life which I could easily do, and probably people of your ideological camp would say "Slay Queen" for doing it and give me high fives.

Also, relationships are kind of like that. At some point, you have to take that leap of faith in a person. Your logic is essentially "never form a bond with someone".

[Theodarzna]

Do you not wish to be enlightened, Theodarzna, and have it all?

[...]

Democrats haven't gone full pro-infanticide yet, well, not Birth plus a few years infanticide, so its too late for me to live that chugging box wine and have my corpse eaten by 15 cats lifestyle.

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Is this due to more women in the work force? Or could it have to do with the work force under compensating and in many cases not paying a livable wage? You would think if more households have 2 incomes rather than just 1, people would be able to afford to have children more than ever.

Employers were never going to pay a living wage unless held to at gunpoint. Obviously, if you double the size of the workforce you cripple the value of labor.

[Moralgy]

I stand by what I said.

Which makes you a bit insufferable of a conversationalist.

"This good thing is good, but its actually bad"

[Kathandira]

As I said, you can choose as you will, and those choices ripple out and have consequences. That is all I will continue to say.

I thought more about it. And you don't have to reply to this if you don't with to carry on the discussion. But I was thinking about how having both parents in the work force could be a reason to not have children. One great benefit to having one of the parents stay home to raise the kids is the reduction of cost on childcare. I work with people who make a pretty penny, and raise kids along with their spouse also being employed. What happens here is they tend to have to pay for day care. When I ask them how much that costs, it could be upwards of $1,000 or more per month. If their spouse doesn't make as much as them, this can become difficult to afford along side of the rest of the costs of raising a child, which can nearly render having one of the parents working pointless during the early ages before they attend school during the day.

Just a pro/con observation.

[Moralgy]

Destroy his life with the full legal endorsement of the US Court System? Plus I can only do this sort of life because I am already coming from a family that is fairly well off. He trusts that I won't, for example, cheat on him, or use my own powers to utterly ruin his life which I could easily do, and probably people of your ideological camp would say "Slay Queen" for doing it and give me high fives.

Also, relationships are kind of like that. At some point, you have to take that leap of faith in a person. Your logic is essentially "never form a bond with someone".

"My ideological camp", theo we have gone through this, when you assume you really end up making an ass out of yourself. My simple thing is, relying on another person to provide everything for you is short sighted, as detailed in quotes with kath there, and not my cup of tea.

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I thought more about it. And you don't have to reply to this if you don't with to carry on the discussion. But I was thinking about how having both parents in the work force could be a reason to not have children. One great benefit to having one of the parents stay home to raise the kids is the reduction of cost on childcare. I work with people who make a pretty penny, and raise kids along with their spouse also being employed. What happens here is they tend to have to pay for day care. When I ask them how much that costs, it could be upwards of $1,000 or more per month. If their spouse doesn't make as much as them, this can become difficult to afford along side of the rest of the costs of raising a child, which can nearly render having one of the parents working pointless during the early ages before they attend school during the day.

Just a pro/con observation.

That is one of the major pros to a stay at home mom, but after school kicks in, there is no real reason to be a stay at home mom during 7 am to 3pm other than cleaning the house, which both spouses can do equally, and resting, which if both spouses share responsibility with child care, isn't going to be a big deal.

[Kathandira]

Employers were never going to pay a living wage unless held to at gunpoint. Obviously, if you double the size of the workforce you cripple the value of labor.

I fortunately am able to cover our bills for the most part. She only has to pay her personal bills which is like $600 a month. I pay the other $3k. I'm trying to get her to the point with her art career where she can quit her full time job, and focus on her passion, her art career. Sort of that leap of faith you mentioned earlier. I have 100% faith in her that she can be an established artist, and I am working as hard as I can to provide her the life she always dreamed of.

Unfortunately, that life doesn't include raising children since neither of us have the financial means to do these things along side of financially and physically caring for children.

[Moralgy]

You want a win win situation. Those are rare indeed.

When the individual wins, society suffers, when society wins, the individual suffers. BUt you can also view all those things as sacrifices, or more broadly, evolutionary steps. You want a blank "good"/"bad". I cannot give you that.

But you have an opinion on this, you always do, and given past discussions, are you always up for sacrificing individual freedom for the greater good.

[Kathandira]

That is one, yes. You can also talk about parents that do have kids, and those kids either being undisciplined because both parents are working and cannot really do that. Or they have one child and become super protective and become "bulldozer" parents.

We seem to have a mix of both... though this article is pretty interesting also:

The Coddling of the American Mind
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...n-mind/399356/

The recent college cheating scandal is another good example, though that takes money.

Shoot, I don't need to read that. I LIVED that! lol.

Both my parents worked, and worked very late hours to make overtime to pay for me and my sister. We were pretty bad kids, but part of it was a reflection of how our parents treated us because they were so over worked that they didn't have the patients for us when they got home.

And the other side of the coin, I have friends with kids who coddle their children and I see them year after year getting more and more needy/entitled.

Raising children is extremely hard.

[Theodarzna]

"My ideological camp", theo we have gone through this, when you assume you really end up making an ass out of yourself. My simple thing is, relying on another person to provide everything for you is short sighted, as detailed in quotes with kath there, and not my cup of tea.

I know enough to know where you come from in thought. And it seems weird that I am projected as being reliant and not him. This kind of shows how little Motherhood is really valued by you.

[Kathandira]

My parents also both worked, though made time for us after school. I was never "bad" I usually just stayed at home and read, or played with/programmed the computer.

My brother on the other hand... that's another story, though he has, thankfully, gotten his life straightened out.

It was part my parents, and part being a product of our environment. Our parents weren't anything close to well off, hence the log hours and over time just to get by. So we lived in the ghetto for the most part. Lots of crime, lots of poor people, lots of violence.

We did get out eventually, but not till I was 16, and my sister was 20, so damage had already been done. It too me until I was around 25 to get my self straightened out. 13 years later, i'm in a really good place in life. But I feel if things were different growing up, i'd had been able to get where I am much sooner.

[Theodarzna]

I fortunately am able to cover our bills for the most part. She only has to pay her personal bills which is like $600 a month. I pay the other $3k. I'm trying to get her to the point with her art career where she can quit her full time job, and focus on her passion, her art career. Sort of that leap of faith you mentioned earlier. I have 100% faith in her that she can be an established artist, and I am working as hard as I can to provide her the life she always dreamed of.

Unfortunately, that life doesn't include raising children since neither of us have the financial means to do these things along side of financially and physically caring for children.

I take time to write and might write non-fiction history books. I'd rather write as a job and homeschool my own children.

[Kathandira]

I know enough to know where you come from in thought. And it seems weird that I am projected as being reliant and not him. This kind of shows how little Motherhood is really valued by you.

Well, without you, he might not have children, which in essence means he wouldn't need you to raise his children since they wouldn't exist.

BUT! He obviously wants a wife, and children, and he cannot have that without you. So he absolutely needs you and depends on you.

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I take time to write and might write non-fiction history books. I'd rather write as a job and homeschool my own children.

Do that shit! That is awesome!

[Kathandira]

*nod* that is good to hear that you worked on yourself. That takes self-reflection and a lot of people lack that today. Usually solely focused on the external world around them, and the next stimulating flapdoodle.

Internal reflection, paired with external observation. I saw in myself what I saw in others and realized things needed to change or I wouldn't get anywhere in life. I saw those who were failing, and those who were succeeding, and I thought to myself, what the hell am I doing wasting all of this potential!