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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Fortunately you have no authority over me. And so you will remain a disingenuous religious degenerate in my mind.
    Luckily, the facts don't give a shit about your opinion. That's the main failure of zealots, they have to create a world of cognitive dissonance, because the real world is too uncomfortable.

    You may want to see about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  2. #82
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineSamantha View Post
    I agree with what you said, but I think it's also important to realize the limitations of epistemology. There are some things that I believe to be just flat-out for-sure unknowable. It's an interesting conversation to have in depth but I unfortunately I don't think these forums are the place for it.
    I mean, I admitted as much right in there. It's quite possible that things like quantum uncertainty will turn out to never be made certain, for instance. To accurately simulate the universe, without shortcuts, would require the mass and energy and timespan of said universe, so effectively impossible. Etc.

    I'm not claiming science can provide all answers. I'm saying science is the only things that provides useful answers. The rest either leads you back to science to properly understand things, or is some variant of hokum snake oil you've deluded yourself into thinking has validity.

    That there are limits to those answers is accepted, and fine. I just don't accept "God of the Gaps" bullshit as a legitimate argument. "Science can't explain X, therefore God is real" makes as much sense as "you haven't seen proof that Bigfoot doesn't exist, so he has dinner with me every Thursday".

  3. #83
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Luckily, the facts don't give a shit about your opinion. That's the main failure of zealots, they have to create a world of cognitive dissonance, because the real world is too uncomfortable.

    You may want to see about that.
    Well, that is your opinion of me... and as you note, I do not need to "give a shit about your opinion".
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Well, that is your opinion of me... and as you note, I do not need to "give a shit about your opinion".
    You also don't seem to give a shit about the facts.

    Luckily, science is the only one that can find verifiable answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans OnlineSamantha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, I admitted as much right in there. It's quite possible that things like quantum uncertainty will turn out to never be made certain, for instance. To accurately simulate the universe, without shortcuts, would require the mass and energy and timespan of said universe, so effectively impossible. Etc.

    I'm not claiming science can provide all answers. I'm saying science is the only things that provides useful answers. The rest either leads you back to science to properly understand things, or is some variant of hokum snake oil you've deluded yourself into thinking has validity.

    That there are limits to those answers is accepted, and fine. I just don't accept "God of the Gaps" bullshit as a legitimate argument. "Science can't explain X, therefore God is real" makes as much sense as "you haven't seen proof that Bigfoot doesn't exist, so he has dinner with me every Thursday".
    Oh no doubt, I never disagreed with you on that. I will say though that how useful something is depends largely on your definition of useful. I don't subscribe to this notion that everything other than science is useless, I think there's quite a few things that, while maybe not helping us understand the world, might make our existence more bearable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpresident View Post
    My words exactly. Manufacturing in the US is considerably more expensive than elsewhere, and part of that are savage regulations such as environment protection or minimum wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderaan View Post
    Saying that Wilson is a racist murderer is the same level of conspiracy as saying Sandy Hook didn't happen and the parents are in on it.
    I don't post that often, and when I do it's often in bursts. I always lurk though.

  6. #86
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You also don't seem to give a shit about the facts.

    Luckily, science is the only one that can find verifiable answers.
    That is you being disingenuous again... shame on you.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  7. #87
    I there was a big book with all answers, it would be to big to read.
    And yes, the whole point of science is to ask new questions, even with a big book they would ask so what the motive behind us getting this big book? Is there going to be another big book and so on

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    That is you being disingenuous again... shame on you.
    Prove it.

    You have stated you don't care about facts, and will gladly ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  9. #89
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Prove it.

    You have stated you don't care about facts, and will gladly ignore them.
    I said some facts can be "true", but wrong. "Wrong" is an ethical observation, "true" is a logical one.

    So again, either argue in good faith, or admit you are disingenuous.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I said some facts can be "true", but wrong. "Wrong" is an ethical observation, "true" is a logical one.

    So again, either argue in good faith, or admit you are disingenuous.
    So, you cannot prove it?

    Thanks for admitting it.

    Once again, someone who tried to ignore the definitions of words, like you are doing, is not arguing in good faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  11. #91
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you cannot prove it?

    Thanks for admitting it.

    Once again, someone who tried to ignore the definitions of words, like you are doing, is not arguing in good faith.
    Thanks for proving me right again.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Prove it.

    You have stated you don't care about facts, and will gladly ignore them.
    If you believed in a fact, and it led to your depression and suicide, but believing the lie led you to leading a happy life... which would be better for you (or that individual?).

    Yes, it's an extreme example, and one that you may not be able to wrap your head around easily, since you are firmly rooted in the science camp, and for the most part I would agree with you. I'm not for self-deception for the most part, but if it doesn't hurt anyone else, and someone is living a happy life with it, I say let them be.

    Just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Senator Moore will be sitting in that seat and I hope it burns you to your core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Trump did it so it's good. I put my faith in a strong political figure because I lack self-esteem and feel threatened by a changing world. Whoever stands against him is bad because I do not understand their arguments and I have a simple tribalistic mindset created through the consumption of right-wing media.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    If you believed in a fact, and it led to your depression and suicide, but believing the lie led you to leading a happy life... which would be better for you (or that individual?).

    Yes, it's an extreme example, and one that you may not be able to wrap your head around easily, since you are firmly rooted in the science camp, and for the most part I would agree with you. I'm not for self-deception for the most part, but if it doesn't hurt anyone else, and someone is living a happy life with it, I say let them be.

    Just saying.
    You can believe in a fact, or not... it doesn't make it not a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  14. #94
    there are limits to what we can measure, we can only measure accurately to what we can measure with.
    but mathematics are a great tool for making theoretical models that we can test for confirmation, but even then without Heisenberg's uncertainty principle photons and electrons would leave us flabbergasted to understand since we couldn't quantify them into numerical equations.

    but in general, you should always check for the proof or evidence cause it's not impossible to create a re-contextualized data-sample and run a erroneous experiment off of it for the purpose of propagandizing.
    if people can get money, power, respect by faking something, they will fake any and every thing.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Thanks for proving me right again.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fact

    The dictionary disagrees with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not claiming science can provide all answers. I'm saying science is the only things that provides useful answers. The rest either leads you back to science to properly understand things, or is some variant of hokum snake oil you've deluded yourself into thinking has validity.
    Define useful. I think Philosophy has provided useful answers to me, for helping me live a happier better life. Science has helped me understand the world I live in, but I can't think of anything in science that has necessarily made me a happier person for knowing the answer. Just saying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You can believe in a fact, or not... it doesn't make it not a fact.
    That's true, but if believing the lie leads you to living a happier fuller life.... what's the harm? (as long as you aren't harming or misleading others?)

    I'm not debating about a fact being a fact
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Senator Moore will be sitting in that seat and I hope it burns you to your core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Trump did it so it's good. I put my faith in a strong political figure because I lack self-esteem and feel threatened by a changing world. Whoever stands against him is bad because I do not understand their arguments and I have a simple tribalistic mindset created through the consumption of right-wing media.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    Define useful. I think Philosophy has provided useful answers to me, for helping me live a happier better life. Science has helped me understand the world I live in, but I can't think of anything in science that has necessarily made me a happier person for knowing the answer. Just saying.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's true, but if believing the lie leads you to living a happier fuller life.... what's the harm? (as long as you aren't harming or misleading others?)

    I'm not debating about a fact being a fact
    Like I said, believing a lie is fine, it's still a lie. He's flatly tried to say that believing something makes it a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Like I said, believing a lie is fine, it's still a lie. He's flatly tried to say that believing something makes it a fact.
    Well, in his mind it's a fact... it may also be a fact that you'll never be able to change his mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Senator Moore will be sitting in that seat and I hope it burns you to your core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Trump did it so it's good. I put my faith in a strong political figure because I lack self-esteem and feel threatened by a changing world. Whoever stands against him is bad because I do not understand their arguments and I have a simple tribalistic mindset created through the consumption of right-wing media.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    Well, in his mind it's a fact... it may also be a fact that you'll never be able to change his mind
    Then that's simple a lie, and an opinion. It doesn't change the definitions of words.

    You could call it a shooting star for all that matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  20. #100
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A> that's not actually true. There's a lot of room in science for establishing why certain things are "attractive" to most people, for instance.
    What is attractive is whatever the person thinks is a true account of how history led up the current moment.

    As far as aesthetic attraction it may or may not be science. That's one of the hard ones where we don't know if it will be measurable with better imaging technology. But everybody knows when you look at two pieces of art one of them will be at least a tiny bit better a worse.

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