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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    That comment used to be true, and it still would be if classes and specs were somewhat balanced.
    I even said it multiple times in the past myself.

    That is not today's WoW though.
    If you are just having some bants, sure. Every class/spec can do a 10-15 in somewhat decent hands. But the reality is that if your group likes pushing, which is a significant part of the M+ content, then you quickly run into a situation where your class and spec choices have an enormous impact on the ease and the success, and if you play off-meta, your guildies will eventually become less patient with accommodating your choice.
    So you basically said that I was right that all classes are fine doing all but the most hardcore content, but if your group likes to do the most hardcore content they won't want to carry you if you don't play the meta. So... thanks for agreeing with me?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Just because it has been done that way doesn't mean it is right. What Blizzard should do is homogenize all of the specs in M+. Tank, Melee, Healer and Range. This is for anything that is above the dungeons that give maximum gear. This way it will be truly "competitive". Normalising the player will make skill important, not FotM.
    After all the years of people whining about "homogenization" and "my X doesn't even feel like X anymore all the fun has been pruned out" THAT is the response you give. I'd go find a bomb shelter if I were you.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So you basically said that I was right that all classes are fine doing all but the most hardcore content, but if your group likes to do the most hardcore content they won't want to carry you if you don't play the meta. So... thanks for agreeing with me?
    It's a little different in WoW though isn't it? In other games you just switch to another character, takes two seconds.

    In WoW to switch to another character you have to level it to max, do a shit ton of dailies, do a shit ton of other content to gear it up. It's a process that takes weeks if you don't play 10 hours a day.

    It'd be nice if Blizzard made the bad specs a little less awful. The top specs in M+ are around 40% better than the worst.

    It's a little better in raids but the top specs are still 17% better than the lowest.

  3. #23
    Screw Diablo M+ crap... i hope they remove it....

  4. #24
    Typical useless reaction.. "i don't like it so remove it"

    Constructive feedback would be to say they need to make most of the buff and utilities into professions items you can craft and buff, just like the scrolls right now, engineering battle rez devices, etc, remove the cooldown on invisibility pots and make it on cooldown like shroud on its own and share with shroud.

    That's the way to fix this, and to make professions relevant again, and let the class versions BETTER than the profession ones of course.

    It's just like people asking for rogues in tol dagor, they seems to be totally unaware blacksmiths and scribes can open the locks as well.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    It's just like people asking for rogues in tol dagor, they seems to be totally unaware blacksmiths and scribes can open the locks as well.
    If it's a high level group, then rogues can solo all 4 buffs with sap and stealth. Tricks also works for 30s of aggro redirection from the cannons (It doesn't proc the 6s duration for reasons).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    People doing 17+ keys must represent like 0.01% of the player base.
    It's the same specs on the bottom whether you're talking +5, +10, +15, +20. If you doubt me go look for yourself.

    The point of the OP, I believe, is that the keys are fun to do as they get tough. For the lower ones you can still do it even though you play a bad spec, for the higher ones you can't even do it.

    I agree with the OP. I enjoy higher keystones and I wish there was a bit more balance but I know there is no easy solution. Variety is the enemy of balance. Still, small changes would be nice so the worst specs aren't quite as bad.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    It's the same specs on the bottom whether you're talking +5, +10, +15, +20. If you doubt me go look for yourself.

    The point of the OP, I believe, is that the keys are fun to do as they get tough. For the lower ones you can still do it even though you play a bad spec, for the higher ones you can't even do it.

    I agree with the OP. I enjoy higher keystones and I wish there was a bit more balance but I know there is no easy solution. Variety is the enemy of balance. Still, small changes would be nice so the worst specs aren't quite as bad.
    Is it more that the "bottom" specs are significantly worse, or just that rogues are so far ahead of anything else, especially melee, that everything else looks bad in comparison?

    I hit 4200 end of Legion on a DPS DK so I'm familiar with the difficulty of pushing keys with a "sub meta" spec, but playing a DPS warrior now its REALLY hard to find pugs for anything over ~+15 with how strong a few other specs are.

  8. #28
    With everything out in the open, it's become like high-end raiding now where there's this skew towards the meta. Everyone knows what's optimal. Difference with raiding though is you need 20 people and you need just consistent bodies to keep it going so they'll take the player (except at the bleeding edge where they can bring whatever they want). Tier token types also used to do this. With M+ though it's just 3 DPS spots and it's very easy to exclude what it isn't optimal. MDI skews community perception for sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    Is it more that the "bottom" specs are significantly worse, or just that rogues are so far ahead of anything else, especially melee, that everything else looks bad in comparison.
    Yeah, the bottom needs some love. Wasn't much balancing in Season 2.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    Is it more that the "bottom" specs are significantly worse, or just that rogues are so far ahead of anything else, especially melee, that everything else looks bad in comparison?

    I hit 4200 end of Legion on a DPS DK so I'm familiar with the difficulty of pushing keys with a "sub meta" spec, but playing a DPS warrior now its REALLY hard to find pugs for anything over ~+15 with how strong a few other specs are.
    It's not simply a rogue issue ... rather rogues are symptomatic of a bigger issue. (And interestingly sub is one of the specs are the bottom whether you're looking at +5 or +20.) Keystones are like raid bosses with a binary output: you either passed or failed, which amplifies imbalance. So one spec might make your run very marginally faster than another spec, but if you only beat the timer by 5 seconds you've had an infinitely greater result on the basis of a very fractional improvement. And at some point the highest key you can time is one you're just barely able to do on time, else you are not really pushing.

    I mean, it's only a problem because people are pushing keys, whereas there used to be no point to running a dungeon if you weren't fresh max level. So keystones are fun because it is a min/maxing challenge in repeatable content and they're also spec imbalanced because it's a min/maxing challenge.

    But to get to your question, let's say you're running with friends and you don't even have to worry about PUG invites: are the specs close enough that you would legit push keys without being a drag on the team regardless of what you're playing? I would say no. Not for tanks, not for healers and not for dps. You'll feel the difference. Even if only one person in the group is playing one of the bottom performing specs for their role you won't time keys as high (arguably nearly as high but it depends on the role) as you would otherwise. I think they could reasonably narrow that gap by giving the bottom specs some love. What do you think?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hallaster View Post
    I have been playing a lot of classes and specs. I really enjoy running keys only a 17-19 plus player around the 1.8k skill but I really enjoy it. The problem I am seeing is there are so many classes that don't even come close to Rogues, Demonhunters, Windwalkers a Protection Warriors. I am really speaking about Arcane, Fire, Sub rogues. The fury and arms warriors and survival hunters of the world.

    I just wish they would stop nerfing classes that are fun and maybe help the classes that are underachieving. Honestly if mythic plus is going to be as popular as it seems going forward every class and spec should have options to help a group achieve whether through traits or talents to compete.

    What you all think, I am suggesting fix what's lacking and leave what is good as is just give options for every class and personal spec a chance.

    Let me know what you think.

    Thanks
    If you're talking about the MDI cups or the top 0.001% of keys... it's really not relevant.

    You can run 20s on any spec of the game.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    AoE damage has always been the most rewarding part of playing a DPS. Good dps could use their buffs and trinkets to pull some really hectic numbers and it is fun to see how creative you can be. Over the years, Blizzard has tried to niche aoe, and one of the big tools they use is target caps. Target caps are like frozen yogurt. NOT a valid substitute for Ice Cream.

    Every DPS should have access to an AoE niche path for their dps. Especially since now AoE is more important than ST due to mythic+ and seeing as how raiding is doing poorly, and considering how prevalent trash is in BFA. No one should be stuck with a ST only dps, because it is actually niche(while the need for aoe is mainstream).
    This is the actual truth and problem behind balancing and niches in WoW atm. Attacking multiple targets well is not niche. Its a nigh constant need for PvE for the past 4 expansions. ST is niche. Balancing should reflect the reality of their dungeon/encounter design. However it does not and raiding and M+ representation puts that well on display right now. The two separate pieces of content primarily feature either aoe and control or the ability to maintain damage on multiple targets for extended periods. There are specs (even classes) who miss the boat on both. So rather than niche encounters and cool moments for classes or specs the reality is you have niche or useless classes and specs that really aren't often a good decision while nearly everything is catered towards a certain damage profile. There really isn't a lot of variety in design. The bottom really is a mile from the top and their lack of balancing this season is notable.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2019-05-03 at 12:12 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    If you're talking about the MDI cups or the top 0.001% of keys... it's really not relevant.

    You can run 20s on any spec of the game.
    If you said 10's I would totally agree. 15's, ehhh, maybe. But 20's? In the past 2 weeks at 20: 17,826 parses for outlaw rogues, 2 parses for survival hunter. I'm guessing those 2 were as a joke. 11 dps specs with at least 1,000 parses, 8 with fewer than 100 and 5 in between.

    I'm sure you could run 20's as a survival hunter, but the normal player doing 20's isn't that insanely skilled. There is a reason certain specs are played exponentially more often than other specs at 20 and higher.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    If you said 10's I would totally agree. 15's, ehhh, maybe. But 20's? In the past 2 weeks at 20: 17,826 parses for outlaw rogues, 2 parses for survival hunter. I'm guessing those 2 were as a joke. 11 dps specs with at least 1,000 parses, 8 with fewer than 100 and 5 in between.

    I'm sure you could run 20's as a survival hunter, but the normal player doing 20's isn't that insanely skilled. There is a reason certain specs are played exponentially more often than other specs at 20 and higher.
    I'd say that's due to player perception over anything else, not an issue on the classes themselves. People see top players\streamers comps, they see MDI comps, and they gravitate towards those. Perfectly normal.

    But sure, 20 probably might have been a bit high of a mark, in particular just after leaving the best affixes in raging\volcanic behind.
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2019-05-03 at 12:05 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Just a few months ago people were talking about how "useless" prot warriors are for m+, that alone should tell you a lot.
    Like before they got buffed (and DKs nerfed) and the Seasonal Affix wasn't a mass of mobs to AoE down?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    It's not simply a rogue issue ... rather rogues are symptomatic of a bigger issue. (And interestingly sub is one of the specs are the bottom whether you're looking at +5 or +20.) Keystones are like raid bosses with a binary output: you either passed or failed, which amplifies imbalance. So one spec might make your run very marginally faster than another spec, but if you only beat the timer by 5 seconds you've had an infinitely greater result on the basis of a very fractional improvement. And at some point the highest key you can time is one you're just barely able to do on time, else you are not really pushing.

    I mean, it's only a problem because people are pushing keys, whereas there used to be no point to running a dungeon if you weren't fresh max level. So keystones are fun because it is a min/maxing challenge in repeatable content and they're also spec imbalanced because it's a min/maxing challenge.

    But to get to your question, let's say you're running with friends and you don't even have to worry about PUG invites: are the specs close enough that you would legit push keys without being a drag on the team regardless of what you're playing? I would say no. Not for tanks, not for healers and not for dps. You'll feel the difference. Even if only one person in the group is playing one of the bottom performing specs for their role you won't time keys as high (arguably nearly as high but it depends on the role) as you would otherwise. I think they could reasonably narrow that gap by giving the bottom specs some love. What do you think?
    Another possible option would be for M+ to be less stratified, i.e. just remove 3/5/6/8/9 and then have them scale from 10 more sharply. That would mean that you could play around a 10 with a fair number of groups and succeed without feeling that you'd have been better served by running an 11 or 12 because those would be significantly more difficult.

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    You can run 20s on any spec of the game.
    Some players can, maybe. Most cannot. Even if we step down to m+10s, there are many players who would consider that content that they are pushing, and when you're pushing/progressing what specs people are playing matters, whether you're a cutting-edge guild or a group of friends playing casually in the weekends. Now, if you're with friends playing causally, you might be forgiven your sub-optimal choices, but they are still sub-optimal and you're still holding your group back unless you're doing content that isn't actually challenging for you.

    When people say specs don't matter except for bleeding edge content, they are wrong. Spec matters any time the content is challenging for the player in question.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Dungeons should never have been made into highly competitive content. You can't fit enough classes let alone specs into them so most of the game's specs rot.
    Strongly disagree. This game desperately needed some form of challenging small group content.




    The problem is the community. Every spec in this game is more than capable of doing keys into the 20s. The fact of the matter is, most of the players are simply not good enough to do keys into the 20s. Even if they played the "Meta Class" they would not be good enough. The vast majority of players are not limited due to the maximum potential of their spec, its the player skill level. Sure, the same player might get a tiny bit higher if they played a meta class but your not going to go from running 10s on a warlock to 20s just because you change to rogue.


    The only class that is perhaps too good is rogue, simply because shroud is too powerful.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    Strongly disagree. This game desperately needed some form of challenging small group content.




    The problem is the community. Every spec in this game is more than capable of doing keys into the 20s. The fact of the matter is, most of the players are simply not good enough to do keys into the 20s. Even if they played the "Meta Class" they would not be good enough. The vast majority of players are not limited due to the maximum potential of their spec, its the player skill level. Sure, the same player might get a tiny bit higher if they played a meta class but your not going to go from running 10s on a warlock to 20s just because you change to rogue.


    The only class that is perhaps too good is rogue, simply because shroud is too powerful.
    It's not only rogues. Try to get into 20+ keys as a resto shaman and you'll get accepted to maybe 1 out of 10 groups even though you have the score and can heal it without a problem. Everyone wants a resto druid for CR and better throughput just to make it easier, why would they take someone without CR?

    Same for tanks, people want protection warrior for the extra dps. Yeah, can be done with other classes but it's safer to just invite the meta.

  19. #39
    I, too, hate that I cannot play basketball because my height/weight ratio is not the same as that of NBA players. I'd really love to go and shoot a few hoops, but since I'm not fit to be a pro, I literally cannot do that ever.

    Such a sad world.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    It's not simply a rogue issue ... rather rogues are symptomatic of a bigger issue. (And interestingly sub is one of the specs are the bottom whether you're looking at +5 or +20.) Keystones are like raid bosses with a binary output: you either passed or failed, which amplifies imbalance. So one spec might make your run very marginally faster than another spec, but if you only beat the timer by 5 seconds you've had an infinitely greater result on the basis of a very fractional improvement. And at some point the highest key you can time is one you're just barely able to do on time, else you are not really pushing.

    I mean, it's only a problem because people are pushing keys, whereas there used to be no point to running a dungeon if you weren't fresh max level. So keystones are fun because it is a min/maxing challenge in repeatable content and they're also spec imbalanced because it's a min/maxing challenge.

    But to get to your question, let's say you're running with friends and you don't even have to worry about PUG invites: are the specs close enough that you would legit push keys without being a drag on the team regardless of what you're playing? I would say no. Not for tanks, not for healers and not for dps. You'll feel the difference. Even if only one person in the group is playing one of the bottom performing specs for their role you won't time keys as high (arguably nearly as high but it depends on the role) as you would otherwise. I think they could reasonably narrow that gap by giving the bottom specs some love. What do you think?
    Definitely. They could start by giving every healer a battle res. Not only druids are the only healer class with battle res, they also have the highest throughput. No wonder that every team on the MDI used a resto druid.

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