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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    There is such a thing as getting reasonably close enough to where differences in potential don't matter nearly as much as differences in skill, though. I'd say 10% or better spread from best to worst is acceptable. 5% is ideal. WoW devs have been historically and colossally incompetent in this matter, though.
    After so many years of seeing superobvious imbalances going throu im convinced that they intentionally dont balance classes but instead just shuffle around a new meta each teir. Its the only logical conclusion.
    "My brother thinks I'm crazy to play the same game for years. He doesn't understand. I plan to play it for the rest of my life."

  2. #162
    I am Murloc! Frolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    Can we please stop pretending that this is a 'World First'/'MDI finals' problem?
    Remind me how many of the playerbase is doing 20+ and higher, COULD it be...the...1%?
    So my point remains id argue.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Remind me how many of the playerbase is doing 20+ and higher, COULD it be...the...1%?
    So my point remains id argue.
    But it is far larger than just MDI, let say the M+ 'mythic' community. But if you look further down at your bread and butter 'heroic' M+ run, things dont get much different for DPS and Heals at least



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    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    Scrolls of whatever buffs are not better than any class buffs.
    No, but the differences are quantitative, relatively small and linear. Invis pot vs shroud is a complete qualitative difference with gamechanging implications

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    But it is far larger than just MDI, let say the M+ 'mythic' community. But if you look further down at your bread and butter 'heroic' M+ run, things dont get much different for DPS and Heals at least



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    No, but the differences are quantitative, relatively small and linear. Invis pot vs shroud is a complete qualitative difference with gamechanging implications
    They both give stealth, there is nothing game changing about it, that's been in the game for a while.
    It's wierd how you don't complain about DH's at the same time, they don't have anything but damage yet they are even more present on the M+ scene than rogues overall.

    But again: watch Reaping go and these will simply change by themselves. I remember the frost mage debate in 8.0, it's the same sh*t now. Frost mage was nerfed, then the content didn't favor it anymore, so it's fallen behind. Now outlaw is nerfed, then the content won't favor it, it's gonna fall behind. It's that simple.

  5. #165
    The statistics for 10+ keys would be more appropriate. Not sure why you thought 20+ keys were relevant.
    "I feel bad for Limit , they put in so many hours only to come in second place" - Methodjosh

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    don't complain about DH's at the same time, they don't have anything but damage yet they are even more present on the M+ scene than rogues overall.
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-tricks/123407 lists a lot of DH-specific utility (related to Blade Dance dodge mostly). That alone makes some of the harder hitting bosses a lot easier to handle (Armor debuff in KR boss 3, last TD deadeye ability, etc.). Netherwalk/Imprison have the same utility as Cloak/Sap. Then Rogues have MD & Shroud while DHs have 5% magic dmg debuff (mostly useless if running meta group though), self sustain, purge, and AE stun.

  7. #167
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Dungeons should never have been made into highly competitive content. You can't fit enough classes let alone specs into them so most of the game's specs rot.
    Until the devs realize what i've bolded the game will continue to lose subs.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by pay928 View Post
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-tricks/123407 lists a lot of DH-specific utility (related to Blade Dance dodge mostly). That alone makes some of the harder hitting bosses a lot easier to handle (Armor debuff in KR boss 3, last TD deadeye ability, etc.). Netherwalk/Imprison have the same utility as Cloak/Sap. Then Rogues have MD & Shroud while DHs have 5% magic dmg debuff (mostly useless if running meta group though), self sustain, purge, and AE stun.
    Man, I'm aware. I think that's pretty obvious regarding my stance on the subject. I intentionally dumbed it down as rogues are being dumbed down to "shroud op".
    People just don't see classes as a whole, but just that one ability that's flashy n stuff.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    They both give stealth, there is nothing game changing about it, that's been in the game for a while.
    .
    Yea definately nothing game changing about being able to shroud one way and pot back the other on KR. Or being able to do skips within 5 min of each other on any other dungeon. Or allowing people to dps pot because they didn't stealth.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Yea definately nothing game changing about being able to shroud one way and pot back the other on KR. Or being able to do skips within 5 min of each other on any other dungeon. Or allowing people to dps pot because they didn't stealth.
    And a druid can death run a whole motherlode alone, no problem.

    Now imagine being Night Elves too. Crazy right.

    You don't see me complaining. I can identify strengths and weaknesses and work around them. You can run 3 survival hunters sub-15 and still make it 2 stars. Of course, if you go into very high territory, you will need to have the best combos avaible. But you don't 'balance' based on those scenarios.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    The statistics for 10+ keys would be more appropriate. Not sure why you thought 20+ keys were relevant.
    What is there to discuss about 10+? That is like discussing raid enthusiasts but then talking about Normal raids. Ofc anyone will do the 10 on each class

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    What is there to discuss about 10+? That is like discussing raid enthusiasts but then talking about Normal raids. Ofc anyone will do the 10 on each class
    Cmplaining about lack of class diversity in the highest level of the game. Obviously there will always be a meta comp when doing 20+ keys and teams will continue to use the meta. There is nothing to discuss either way. Anyone complaining about lack of class/spec diversity probably isn't a very good player either way.

    The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.
    "I feel bad for Limit , they put in so many hours only to come in second place" - Methodjosh

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    And a druid can death run a whole motherlode alone, no problem.

    Now imagine being Night Elves too. Crazy right.

    You don't see me complaining. I can identify strengths and weaknesses and work around them. You can run 3 survival hunters sub-15 and still make it 2 stars. Of course, if you go into very high territory, you will need to have the best combos avaible. But you don't 'balance' based on those scenarios.
    Wow, what a non post. You can 2 chest under a 15 with a random comp! Thrilling insights.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Wow, what a non post. You can 2 chest under a 15 with a random comp! Thrilling insights.
    Snarky.

    There is a reason you don't balance your game based on the top 1% of competitive players. This is not WoW exclusive behavior, this is universal. I'm sorry if it's such a hard concept to grasp with your narrow minded views on gameplay balance.

  15. #175
    I miss MoP/WoD challenge modes. They were fun enough, yielded nice rewards and didn't have this toxic enviroment about them that m+ does once you start to push 19+ keys.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    Cmplaining about lack of class diversity in the highest level of the game. Obviously there will always be a meta comp when doing 20+ keys and teams will continue to use the meta. There is nothing to discuss either way. Anyone complaining about lack of class/spec diversity probably isn't a very good player either way.

    The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.
    As said at the start:

    - If you accept WoW is or has become a meta-comp of the week kind of game (think Leauge of Legends) and enjoy that, then you have no problem.

    - OP metas have always existed, that is not the point, what has changed dramatically is the accessibility to have them at the ready and thus the expectation/peer pressure of conforming to them at a certain level of ambition. It is not that long ago that class stacking was limited to the very top of day-raiding guilds.

    - Going from lvl1-lvl120 is just a few hours and has been for quite some time. The only thing that changed there is that is now 'free' as in beer due to the ridiculously easy to get gold and the gold -> battle.net balance route that has eliminated the price of (character boost/race change /faction change /server transfer) services.

    - Going from dinging max lvl to fully geared for Mythic Raids / high M+ has reduced significantly in BfA due to the emerged philosophy of 'returning/new players should be able play with their mates in really short time whatever the content'. You can argue this is inevitable in a multiplayer game with a dwindling playerbase, where any barrier to re-subscription will be eliminated.

    And as for "The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.", that is ass backward. If a 40th percentile player of class/spec A matches the success of the 99th percentile player of class/spec B, then it is the off-meta class B player that is 'skill-capped', not the on-meta A player.

  17. #177
    From my perspective for random 10-15 I will never invite rogue or resto druid. You might say I'm crazy but every retard plays those this days because of MDI, all pug rogues and resto druids I played with sucked horribly.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Einsz View Post
    From my perspective for random 10-15 I will never invite rogue or resto druid. You might say I'm crazy but every retard plays those this days because of MDI, all pug rogues and resto druids I played with sucked horribly.
    Indeed. I have started to develop a similar approach. Untill the playerbase fights back against the token; Prot War - Rogue - Resto Druid - DH meta, Blizzard will just assume that you're only serious about m+ post 20 keys if you play one of these classes.

    Blizzard need to massively rethink the "just amp up mob/boss health and damage." We can do better than that, allow all classes to bring something unique. At least design some dungeons around at least 1-2 classes so everyone has their niche. You could have one dungeon where a Mage can spell steal a crazy buff that benefits the group, another where a Hunter can tame a unique pet for the dungeon that interacts with the group somehow. Maybe an alter that only a Priest or Paladin can interact with to unlock something interesting.

    Mythic+ is genuinely a good thing but unless it evolves away from just scaling damage and health, and always favouring the current meta and rendering 90% of the roster worthless, it will alienate people and turn people away.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    As said at the start:

    - If you accept WoW is or has become a meta-comp of the week kind of game (think Leauge of Legends) and enjoy that, then you have no problem.

    - OP metas have always existed, that is not the point, what has changed dramatically is the accessibility to have them at the ready and thus the expectation/peer pressure of conforming to them at a certain level of ambition. It is not that long ago that class stacking was limited to the very top of day-raiding guilds.

    - Going from lvl1-lvl120 is just a few hours and has been for quite some time. The only thing that changed there is that is now 'free' as in beer due to the ridiculously easy to get gold and the gold -> battle.net balance route that has eliminated the price of (character boost/race change /faction change /server transfer) services.

    - Going from dinging max lvl to fully geared for Mythic Raids / high M+ has reduced significantly in BfA due to the emerged philosophy of 'returning/new players should be able play with their mates in really short time whatever the content'. You can argue this is inevitable in a multiplayer game with a dwindling playerbase, where any barrier to re-subscription will be eliminated.

    And as for "The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.", that is ass backward. If a 40th percentile player of class/spec A matches the success of the 99th percentile player of class/spec B, then it is the off-meta class B player that is 'skill-capped', not the on-meta A player.
    I don't know, it sounds more like you're complaining that your spec isn't being used on +25 keys.
    "I feel bad for Limit , they put in so many hours only to come in second place" - Methodjosh

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    I don't know, it sounds more like you're complaining that your spec isn't being used on +25 keys.
    You are right, you don't know.

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