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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Blizzard can very easily fix the problem with Shroud by building the dungeons more optimally. They already have mobs that can see through stealth, so they just need to add more of those for example. They also need to address the mobs/packs which are usually skipped with shroud. Currently, some minibosses give waaay to little percentage so there are no incentive for killing them. If Blizzard make a better correlation between the challenge of the mobs/packs and the rewards (percentage) then shroud would become a lot less valuable. No need to add a tax.
    A lot of problems have to do with dungeon design more than game design and could be fixed that way but I don't think you can at all call redesigning the dungeons easy.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    A lot of problems have to do with dungeon design more than game design and could be fixed that way but I don't think you can at all call redesigning the dungeons easy.
    No, redesigning is not necessarily an easy task. The best thing would be to design the dungeons properly from the start.

    I do believe however, that the following would be an (relatively) easy fix and a good start:

    1) Add true vision (see through stealth) to more mobs.

    2) Let more challenging mobs give more percentage so people would be less incentive to skip certain mobs.

    Some of the mobs in for example Shrine of Storm give too little percentage in relation to the challenge they present.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No, redesigning is not necessarily an easy task. The best thing would be to design the dungeons properly from the start.

    I do believe however, that the following would be an (relatively) easy fix and a good start:

    1) Add true vision (see through stealth) to more mobs.

    2) Let more challenging mobs give more percentage so people would be less incentive to skip certain mobs.

    Some of the mobs in for example Shrine of Storm give too little percentage in relation to the challenge they present.
    Absolutely they should have designed them better, and given that BfA dungeons were supposedly designed with M+ in mind, the way they are is quite the failure. But your (1) is simply making shroud useless which is not good design either. (2) can work if they redo the math.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Absolutely they should have designed them better, and given that BfA dungeons were supposedly designed with M+ in mind, the way they are is quite the failure. But your (1) is simply making shroud useless which is not good design either. (2) can work if they redo the math.
    All the talk about adding truesight. They should just let alchemy/inscription/engineering have a consumable/device that gives shroud. It's not like the other scrolls though where a lesser effect would be fine (since you have to get a certain distance with full duration for some skips). Some might still not be possible without a rogue due to no sprint to keep up with mounted speed (druid/monk could probably still do it or make it usable while mounted).

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by pay928 View Post
    All the talk about adding truesight. They should just let alchemy/inscription/engineering have a consumable/device that gives shroud. It's not like the other scrolls though where a lesser effect would be fine (since you have to get a certain distance with full duration for some skips). Some might still not be possible without a rogue due to no sprint to keep up with mounted speed (druid/monk could probably still do it or make it usable while mounted).
    The issue is not just rogue balance with shroud, it's also what happens after a wipe in dungeons with respawns.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    I think the timer ruins it for tons of people who liked stuff like BC and Cataclysm heroics.
    Exactly the problem I see in this mode.

    I just want a difficult dungeon setting that may even take 3 hours to clear with many wipes along the way.
    This timer just makes people rush and pick the best strategies/classes for rushing and skipping and if the timer expires - many times a player leaves the group because for some reason getting 2 drops in the end of a run isn't worth it but 3 drops is.

    TL;DR - People play for max reward while putting least effort instead of enjoying the game.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    Exactly the problem I see in this mode.

    I just want a difficult dungeon setting that may even take 3 hours to clear with many wipes along the way.
    This timer just makes people rush and pick the best strategies/classes for rushing and skipping and if the timer expires - many times a player leaves the group because for some reason getting 2 drops in the end of a run isn't worth it but 3 drops is.

    TL;DR - People play for max reward while putting least effort instead of enjoying the game.
    The people that would stay for a full 3 hour dungeon in BC/Cat are the same people that would stay for a depleted key.

  8. #248
    The timer and the fact that Blizzard is pushing M+ dungeons as esports is the core issue here. Aslong as that clock is there, people will lean towards the most optimal setup.

    Blizzard can never achive 100% class balance here unless they basically remove all spells in the game and just hand out new ones that every class will have.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by pay928 View Post
    The people that would stay for a full 3 hour dungeon in BC/Cat are the same people that would stay for a depleted key.
    The problem with this if you deplete the key AND people leave, no reward for you, no AP, no loot, nothing.
    If a difficult, 3 hour long dungeon gets interrupted by some shitty leavers, np you find someone else and finish the dungeon at your own pace.

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