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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i agree to nearly every thing. you already got me. and then you pushed out that last statement about shadow priests.

    are you stoned ? that spec that is one of 2-3 (together with ele) specs, that were promised to get an overhaul later, cause of lack of time, while the overhaul never happened ? instead they just tuned much dmg into the spec, so ppl shout up. the spec has still aoe vs cleave problems. the spec has still ambivalent behaviour problems. the spec has still identity and niche problems. the spec has still scalability problems. and still talent problems. and i even do not play shadow in this xpac! i mean, serious, every spec has his own problems and oppinions, and every player whines about his spec. but you seriously call shadow as the well working class outcoming from legion to bfa ?

    ARE YOU FREAKIN STONED ???
    First of all, why you're yelling? Chill the fuck down, thanks? And second, priest had a lot stuff back that they lost in Legion, the whole "being in void form the more as possible" brought them a clunky playstyle and as well mind sear coming back is a big relief. Spriest couldn't even do a proper m+ because how bad they were. Did you even played Spriest? They were the last dps class people wanted in a m+. And don't even get me started on AoE of Spriest in Legion. Aoe even a Holy Priest with their holy nova would outdps the dps spec in AoE. As i said, don't even get me started and if you never played Spriest you will understand this even less. At least now the whole insanity with mind sear and even Power Word: Fortitude coming back makes Spriest better to play but still not satisfying enough and yes all classes have their flaws and mostly "spec flaws" and that's why i am making this thread.
    Last edited by Shakana; 2019-05-02 at 02:59 AM.

  2. #62
    I feel like there are three legitimate contenders for worst mistake of BfA:

    A) Class Design: I think Azerite and loss of artifacts should be considered part of this as the base classes were never meant to stand alone.

    B) New Features: It's clear Blizzard spent a ton of resources on islands and warfronts and there just not fun. Perhaps if they had spent those resources developing something players liked more the expansion would be better.

    C) Story

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    In regards to that I personally think that is currently the case because everyone and their mother is playing glacial spike which gives the spec even an ounce of depth. Without that all you would be doing is fishing for procs with frost bolt spam. If Blizzard dares to change that balance tomorrow then the spec is down the toilet and another entry into the list of borked specs.

    Another one of these cases for example is unholy. The spec's AoE feels feels great if you pick the right talents and synergies, but once you dare to change away from that the spec suddenly is quite awful imho. Festering wounds not contributing anything to AoE is just awkward, even though we finally have an AoE RP dump, it's still relegated to a talent choice that locks you out of other things, since you have to choose between something so basic as an RP dump or passive gameplay enhancing talents.

    These two examples show imho one of the issues we have with hasty change in late BfA development when they suddenly tried to make everything work. Alot of the talent choices don't feel like options, they feel mandatory and when you can't pick them you are punished with something that just feels incomplete. This also goes hand in hand with the half assed implementation of "legion core abilities" that displaced other talents or lock you out of others. The fact that they fudged this because they absolutely refused to add another talent row is still baffling to me.
    this shows how subjective „good classes“ are. frost, even (or better foremost) without GS seems totally fine to me. also i had heard not much „from the community“ that frost sucks (what is a very vague base to argument, even when you play/played that much classes and read that much wow interwebz stuff like me). even when GS was not mandatory.

    but idk. its hard to clearly pull personal oppinion, bad class design, and community opinnion out of this mix. over all there will be a lot of truth when it comes down to „BfA has a lot of bad class design“ alongside but with a lot of stuff that is highly subjective.

    so, idk ...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    In my opinion, the biggest mistake was, and will always be the Azerite handling.
    I could deal with Azerite Gear. But Guardian Druid is awful boring useless and extremely weak. I just gave up on this expansion. I'm unsubscribed, My time has run out and I'm not even feeling like leveling alts like I used to do in bad expansions like WoD. All classes are Boring, GCD-slow, with very few baseline skills and a tard talent tree with no realistic options.

    I miss playing this game. I really do. I could care less about story. There are 2 thing that kept me playing this game after 14 years... Class Fantasy/Gameplay and the sensation of fulfillment of getting the BIS peace of gear.

    Class gameplay is bad. TF gear threw away any chance of getting the BIS gear and moving to another alt or waiting for the next patch.

    It's health for the game in the long run that players reach the highest possible gear and take a break till the next raid is released. That feeling of coming back is preserverd when that happens. It's bad when players are burned out of running stuff to proc TF gear and no TIER GEAR to look up to. Players that leave feel a sense of freedom like nothing else.

  5. #65
    Subtlety Rogue Artifact was trash. I miss the abilities that were taken away when my class was butchered.

    I've mained a Subtlety Rogue since 2005, my character is absolutely unrecognizable. Legion and BFA are the worst expansions in the history of the game for me. And class design, specifically the Rogue class which is nothing like itself any longer, is the reason I am unsubscribed.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  6. #66
    They needed to prune somehow. I only have so many fingers to reach so many keys on my keyboard before splitting my knuckles to reach a 12th ability becomes untenable.
    Yet, there was mentioned the very good point of giving players such hard-coded weaknesses that they can't outplay content. Relying on teamwork rings hollow if the specifics of the content means the team can't rely on you, and ditch you for another class.
    My conclusion- they need to massively overhaul class design. MOP-style talents worked when base classes had a large portfolio of abilities. They wanted to correct bloat but didn't retool the talents and spec systems to adjust. There is a way to fix this. "Horizontal growth". Give players an ever-expanding portfolio of abilities to choose from, but limit the maximum they can use at once. New expansions can keep adding things without risking bloat. Ease of interchange is crucial. A simple-but-crude way to implement for WoW is to add 1-3 talents per row. I'd prefer something more elegant and thought out.
    Whatever they do with the game, I hope it gives players more control over their class. I don't feel like being held hostage over the whims of the class design team. I've still not forgiven the Survival Hunter change. I want a paradigm that allows me to find a class iteration I love and not fearing it will disappear next expansion.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    I feel like BfA was the first time an expansion actually literally went backwards.

    And I'm not talking about "wow this is so bad it's like we've gone backwards".

    All classes pretty much LOST abilities from their basic rotation (since they're exactly the same as Legion) except for hunters and warlocks, passives and appearances from tier sets. It just feels wrong.
    I agree--its even played a part in me not wanting to level some of my alts. Right now I have a half-dozen 110s I had leveled up to do mage tower, and no drive to touch any of them knowing that they're not going to be as fun to play at max level as they are right now. Its not like they're gonna gain any abilities, they'll loose their legendaries, and then have to grind AP?

    If it wasn't for the mage towers and class hall campaigns I may not have leveled so many alts in the first place; its not something I generally do, but I've mostly been playing my main this expac and haven't even done the heart of azeroth quest for the neck on most of those toons.

    I leveled my KT warrior to 56 and my brewmaster monk is 117. The monk dinged before I made the warrior.
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  8. #68
    azerite
    catch up
    titan forging
    sharding and relam hopping
    pruning
    gearing
    pathfinder
    lfr
    warfronts
    islands
    and much, much more

  9. #69
    As an altoholic with 22 100+ char class design is a huge turn off for me. When your next active spell is 70lvl away there is something completely fucked up. And the BFA leveling is the worst, you literally gain nothing but rapidly loose power. Every time the new level message pops up it feels like a slap in the face. I gave up leveling new chars for the heritage armor, it's not fun any more.
    Last edited by Vilendor; 2019-05-02 at 06:42 AM.

  10. #70
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by letssee View Post
    azerite
    catch up
    titan forging
    sharding and relam hopping
    pruning
    gearing
    pathfinder
    lfr
    warfronts
    islands
    and much, much more
    Much of that list was in previous expansions too anyways.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  11. #71
    Stood in the Fire Chromell's Avatar
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    Not sure if they were the biggest mistake, but I surely don't think they did them any favors. I loved Spriest in Legion, for instance, only to be extremely disappointed with how the spec works in BfA and everything that was lost with it.

    The biggest disappointment probably came from the loss of Artifact traits and Legendary effects. They made us feel so powerful, only for that to be stripped away the next expansion. The Azerite necklace came in to try to mitigate the power-loss hit we took, but fell really short in that regard, not to mention that it became another AP grind all over again (and in its new iteration they even made a similar thing to the old crucible of Light & Shadow). I was also really disappointed with how they tried to make up for the loss of Legendaries by baking in some procs/effects as talents, to me it just screams lazy.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Much of that list was in previous expansions too anyways.
    yea but it carried over to bfa and it helped

  13. #73
    It wasn't just class abilities and lack thereof that felt like a step backwards from Legion/WoD/etc but like combat as a whole.

    The design choice to slow the game down by adding a bunch of stuff back onto the GCD makes things feel sticky and awkward in a way that they never should. Half of WoW's appeal is that the game just feels good to play. You hit the button, the thing happens. Assuming decent latency you never had to worry about the thing not happening. I don't know if any of you have ever tried other MMOs but none of them feel quite as responsive as WoW. Some have gotten close of course, but none have that feel. And then BFA happened and now WoW feels like those other weird clunky/sticky MMOs where its not as a responsive. Any step taken to slow down WoW's combat is an actively bad design choice IMO. WoW's combat has always been pretty fluid and fun to engage in at the top levels of PvP and PvE. BFA took a massive dump on that. The reason we got was that it would matter later when new stuff was added but well, most of you all already nailed the 'lack of stuff to press' and 'azerite not being good enough to replace the artifacts' as how well the 'new stuff later' worked out (spoiler - it didn't and I don't see 8.2 fixing it)

  14. #74
    IMO the biggest mistakes in BfA are (in order of shitness):

    - Azerite system (neck, gear and AP grind)
    - New features. Island expeditions and War fronts are dull and a huge dissapointment
    - Class design
    Sorry for my english!

  15. #75
    Stood in the Fire Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathris View Post
    It wasn't just class abilities and lack thereof that felt like a step backwards from Legion/WoD/etc but like combat as a whole.

    The design choice to slow the game down by adding a bunch of stuff back onto the GCD makes things feel sticky and awkward in a way that they never should. Half of WoW's appeal is that the game just feels good to play. You hit the button, the thing happens. Assuming decent latency you never had to worry about the thing not happening. I don't know if any of you have ever tried other MMOs but none of them feel quite as responsive as WoW. Some have gotten close of course, but none have that feel. And then BFA happened and now WoW feels like those other weird clunky/sticky MMOs where its not as a responsive. Any step taken to slow down WoW's combat is an actively bad design choice IMO. WoW's combat has always been pretty fluid and fun to engage in at the top levels of PvP and PvE. BFA took a massive dump on that. The reason we got was that it would matter later when new stuff was added but well, most of you all already nailed the 'lack of stuff to press' and 'azerite not being good enough to replace the artifacts' as how well the 'new stuff later' worked out (spoiler - it didn't and I don't see 8.2 fixing it)
    Nr 1 reason I cannot play FFXIV is the slow class gameplay. It drives me insane. Wildstar had super fun gameplay but lacked in other areas, it also coincidentaly came out at the same time as MoP which also had high speed class gameplay with lots of mobility.
    MoP will always be my prefered expaq when it comes to optimal class gameplay and the highest fun factor for my prefered classes.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by oathy View Post
    Feel 100% the same.
    It never felt like a good replacement for the weapons in Legion.
    Went to something enjoyable to something utter dog shit in BFA. Can't remember who it was but they stated they only had 1-2 weeks to test azerite system before BFA got released and there loads of problems with it.

  17. #77
    I love how arms (with certain azerite traits) plays, it's just depressing that i gained 6k dps from going fury without any optimization of secondary stats.

    I think azerite instead should have been more like paragon levels in diablo and let us choose offensive, defensive and utility stats every level, and more generous amount of levels. The traits should have been talent choices, or gems that you collect.

  18. #78
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Class design, azerite and azerite items, lack of content.

    The holy trinity of shitness that made BfA the worst expansion yet.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    When we create a character, we need to choose a class. If that class doesn't fit you, you just simply feel like not playing.

    When a class is not good as it used to be, we lack of interest for the game.

    When a class has it's own and unique aspects, a unique extra gear ability, a unique artifact weapon, we feel good.
    We feel powerful. We feel inspired to play because we have a great synergy between us and the class we choose to play as our main.

    Even when we create alts. We just play them for the sake of it. To try something new, to have more professions, to farm something.
    Sometimes you like an alt so much that you even consider it your "main-alt". Because the gameplay on that alt flourish within you, it's fun, enjoyable.

    Sometimes, even makes you betray your main for that fun that your alt provides you and be your new main.

    Saying the class changes doesn't matter on this game and it's not a problem, it's wrong in so many ways. The game content can be great, the lore can be great, but if our classes are not feeling good to play, you might not see it now but you'll see it later, it will make you feel bad because you can't have those glorious days you had before. Where you saw yourself being useful with your class and trying to role to a different alt class that is going currently better than your main. If your class for example, is a warlock that is good to play on a spec but you don't like and you can't just change for the sake of others because you simply don't like the playstyle, then you'll feel your only purpose to be on a raid is to get summons and give them cookies, passing all raid trying to adapt and the more you play, the less you want to raid with it.

    Legion had a whole expansion dedicated to the uniqueness of the classes. We loved this, we invested time, we did the solo mage tower challenge content as well to unlock another appearances. Mage tower was a pain but it was fantastic. I had the most rage quits in my entire life doing Mage Tower when it showed up and had about 100+ wipes, almost seemed like a raid, but i had no help and no healer, so i really had to know my class to do it right.

    The uniqueness of a class in BfA is so unimportant that even the tier sets no longer exists. You can even be the best player in the world, but without your class not been given much attention just makes the whole game dull. It doesn't help the expansion premise is a mess.

    Now, i'm not saying that in Legion all classes were great and in all aspects of it were crazy perfect (Survival hunter for example, no one wanted to play it in Legion) but it gave us so much fun and BfA lacks giving us that. Our class/spec artifact weapon gave us a new ability that we grown used to. This was the first thing as a demon hunter that made me sad, seeing fury of illidari going. All classes had this particular ability that instead of being turned into a skill, it got turned into a talent or just completely disappeared. Dks got their Sindragosa's Fury turned into a talent. Do you see? So many things got lost in the process for this expansion. I can't just pretend anymore this doesn't affect me AND i don't think i'm the only one but for sure many people say it's not important, think again. I think the only true and big changes went for Shadow priests and Demonology warlocks that were basically dead in Legion.
    I miss the mage tower so much. Like you I did suffer so many wipes assuming I could walk in and just walk out. Some of them you could but some them were dame infuriating but enjoyable as attempts went on like Kruul or Xylem and they actually tested you on how well you knew your class. Similar to Warlocks Green fire for you focus kanrethad and the pitlord and the imps at the same time or face a wipe. Compared to legion they just cut so much in bfa and gave us half assed traits. They buffed Demonology that players played it and seen a lot of them during 8.0 - 8.1 (iirc) than they nerfed it now they're either Afflict or Destro.

  20. #80
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    i don't get blizz's obsession with pruning so much, xpacs should always add something new for your class. leveling is awful when you just lose things on top of the moronic GCD change.
    It's the first steps to a mobile WoW version, you read it here first.....lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Class design, azerite and azerite items, lack of content.

    The holy trinity of shitness that made BfA the worst expansion yet.
    content wise BFA added some new stuff like war front and island expeditions. It's just very very boring content, that's the huge problem.
    Didn't they say they wanted to add a "mythic" verison of war fronts where you can pre-group to beat it? Kinda like the island expeditions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    And the BFA leveling is the worst, you literally gain nothing but rapidly loose power. Every time the new level message pops up it feels like a slap in the face.
    This so much. Losing the legendary powers was a huge let down. I think I've never seen in any other RPG that your character is becoming weaker the more you farm/lvl up. It's so insane to think about how all the game designers though that this is an "ok" concept. mind bogling

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