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  1. #81
    Definitely. In Legion I got the artifact challange on almost all specs/classes (except shaman and monk). Every class plays much worse and feel like it's just a "preview".

  2. #82
    It's not just the classes but the overall character progression. From levels, stats, skills and talents to gearing systems and sources. It's all one big, bland, meaningless mess.
    Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    In my opinion, the biggest mistake was, and will always be the Azerite handling.
    Which is directly related to class design.

    They failed to keep classes entertaining. They failed to develop them. They failed to make them unique. They failed to build on Legion's foundations in that regard. Sure Azerite is the main issue but just because it was their approach of class design in BfA.
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  4. #84
    The Patient Annka's Avatar
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    As for the story, the promoting image should be this instead of orc vs human, that i made myself:
    Last edited by Annka; 2019-05-02 at 01:25 PM.

  5. #85
    I think there are two major ones. The first was that the Azerite system was both RNG, as well as unbalanced, and not fun to play around. In order to max DPS, you'd have to have multiple sets depending on what you were doing. Some of the abilities were simply way too strong, so that meant stacking. And, since the drop rate was gated in a fucked up way, people lost out. Also, it's simply not fun to play with, and didn't add much depth to characters.

    The other big issue was class design and balance. The balance was off, and some classes were simply broken in a very bad way. Druids basically had one viable spec at the start (boomkin), with all the others trailing badly. The other side of that was class design. Demo warlocks felt fun to play in the beta, but then you realize you are a dude with an imp army, and they nerfed the damage far too much. Affliction was great, but then they swapped talents not long before release, and that spec got very clunky.

    Now, the real issue wasn't that these things happened. the real issue was that those things were discussed long before launch, and they didn't fix them.

  6. #86
    No, nothing wrong with classes in BfA.

  7. #87
    The Patient Annka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    No, nothing wrong with classes in BfA.
    There's "nothing" wrong, please... I can't take people anymore saying everything is fine. That's what makes blizzard not realizing there's stuff needing to be dealt with, with your "nothing wrong" feedback and they simply don't fix it, because "there's nothing wrong".

    There's numerous things wrong, do i really need to make a huge post with what everything that is wrong with classes, or specs from classes should i say? For real, if you're going to say nothing is wrong, give me your motive that nothing is wrong, i ask you. Thanks.

  8. #88
    @i9erek said it well, compared to previous expansions the way classes play now feel like a preview of the class rather than a full fledged experience. I've brought it up a few times in other threads, but I still fall back on the Fury Warrior I'm leveling (have been for a while...just can't bring myself to muscle through it right now). The game play on my Fury Warrior has changed so little since level 40 (it's level ~80 now) it's ridiculous. The core rotation stays the same from level 40 to level cap with maybe a couple extra buffs or debuffs along the way and a talent or two that gives an extra button to press.

    I know it's not all about the number of buttons you press, but that has to be balanced with something to look forward to as you gain levels and power, at least IMO. I'm sure Fury Warrior isn't the only one either, it's just the one I have the most information on, and the idea that my game play experience won't largely changed on my way through the next ~40 levels makes it really difficult for me to get excited aboout playing that character.

    Azerite sucked too though, which made Island Expeditions (one of the larger features to be created this expansion) largely useless...I've only ever done one since BfA launched and Ill likely never do another one again unless they provide more rewards than just Azerite Power or tie it to the story somehow.

  9. #89
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    The story and the azerite system have been my two biggest turnoffs.

  10. #90
    High Overlord Cena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    There's "nothing" wrong, please... I can't take people anymore saying everything is fine. That's what makes blizzard not realizing there's stuff needing to be dealt with, with your "nothing wrong" feedback and they simply don't fix it, because "there's nothing wrong".

    There's numerous things wrong, do i really need to make a huge post with what everything that is wrong with classes, or specs from classes should i say? For real, if you're going to say nothing is wrong, give me your motive that nothing is wrong, i ask you. Thanks.
    Dude listen. There are plenty of things wrong with this game and class design is just one of them. You have to realize that many people play this game for a different reason and not everyone is going to care about class design. Sure you are passionate about class design and you want to feel all powerful in the main class/spec you play, but this game will never reach a balance point with specs. Some will always out perform others and it has been that way since the game was created. Not disagreeing with anything you said on your original post, but everything you said is subjective. If you gave your feedback to blizzard directly then fine you did what you did as a player. Whether they will listen to what you and the rest of the handful of people that agree with you is another story.

    Game designers especially in the case of wow will always have trouble balancing and reaching a point where everyone is satisfied. You can't please them all. There are just too many players with varying opinions of how they want the game to be like and fact of the matter is you will only get 1 small piece of the pie. Like it or not that is up to you.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Cena View Post
    Dude listen. There are plenty of things wrong with this game and class design is just one of them. You have to realize that many people play this game for a different reason and not everyone is going to care about class design. Sure you are passionate about class design and you want to feel all powerful in the main class/spec you play, but this game will never reach a balance point with specs. Some will always out perform others and it has been that way since the game was created. Not disagreeing with anything you said on your original post, but everything you said is subjective. If you gave your feedback to blizzard directly then fine you did what you did as a player. Whether they will listen to what you and the rest of the handful of people that agree with you is another story.

    Game designers especially in the case of wow will always have trouble balancing and reaching a point where everyone is satisfied. You can't please them all. There are just too many players with varying opinions of how they want the game to be like and fact of the matter is you will only get 1 small piece of the pie. Like it or not that is up to you.
    The two elephants in the room are class design(gameplay) and reward structure.

    There aren't really a lot of problems. People nitpick a lot more when the core of the game is screwed up. Gameplay and reward structure are the core of WoW. These things were much better in Legion.

    Look, I'm a huge WoW fan. Until BFA had been out a few months, I was right there defending it. I played a mistweaver, so the gameplay nerfs weren't that big of a deal to me. However, it took a few months to discover how awful reward structure is in WoW. I think the turning point was the first warfront release. The game just felt depressing that day, and it wasn't just me, there was a general atmosphere inside the game that my optimism could not penetrate. The xpak was poorly thought out and designed, and here was proof.

    So for a while, I've wanted to make a list of "fake" problems that exist between xpaks, like class balance or lore or rng, things like that. Things people complain about that have always sucked in WoW. Things that never were going to get better, and haven't changed in a long time.(remember, class design and class balance are relatively unrelated)

    I wanted to make that list, because these things confuse people. They make it appear as if things are too complicated to truly understand, and that there are just too many variables to really know exactly what unintended consequences changes would have. These things also marginalize the community because they make the community look inept complaining about these things.

    We finally really have something to complain about, besides downtime between xpaks. A pair of real issues with the game. The game has never really had such terrible issues as it has had in BFA. Even in WoD, the issue was content type(solo garrisons) and content amount(selfie patch) not gameplay and freaking reward structure.

    Gameplay and reward structure are more important than any other aspect of the game. I can talk all day about how reward structure got screwed up(hint: it was partly caused by backlash from the community in Legion concerning the early game, which lead to a much worse game state, we see in BFA, partly due to titan forge tuning, partly due to mythic+, partly due to design philosophy, partly due to incentivization gearing from promoted(read new) activities to the detriment of traditional ones, ect). However, this isn't some huge mess. The things broken in BFA are very clearly defined and obvious to Blizzard(imo). It just takes a long time to patch in ad-hoc changes, and even when they finally do get in, people no longer care.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2019-05-02 at 02:37 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Cena View Post
    Dude listen. There are plenty of things wrong with this game and class design is just one of them. You have to realize that many people play this game for a different reason and not everyone is going to care about class design. Sure you are passionate about class design and you want to feel all powerful in the main class/spec you play, but this game will never reach a balance point with specs. Some will always out perform others and it has been that way since the game was created. Not disagreeing with anything you said on your original post, but everything you said is subjective. If you gave your feedback to blizzard directly then fine you did what you did as a player. Whether they will listen to what you and the rest of the handful of people that agree with you is another story.

    Game designers especially in the case of wow will always have trouble balancing and reaching a point where everyone is satisfied. You can't please them all. There are just too many players with varying opinions of how they want the game to be like and fact of the matter is you will only get 1 small piece of the pie. Like it or not that is up to you.
    You keep talking about "balance" while all people are complaining about is the "fun" playing those classes

  13. #93
    The Patient Annka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cena View Post
    Game designers especially in the case of wow will always have trouble balancing and reaching a point where everyone is satisfied. You can't please them all. There are just too many players with varying opinions of how they want the game to be like and fact of the matter is you will only get 1 small piece of the pie. Like it or not that is up to you.
    "Dude", listen, The being "up to me" will stop being "up to me" when more and more people starts noticing this. Stops to be a "me" to be a "us". It's not only "balancing", it's making them playable, there's specs that are forgotten, my biggest issue is with my alt frost DK but i play all classes just not paladin, i just don't really like it, therefore i see all the flaws. And not just the flaws that i'm talking about, i'm talking about -and if you read all my post- you'll understand that i'm talking about the lack of uniqueness of specs and fun in class design. Giving feedback is not the same as being toxic and just complaining, i'm giving feedback to the expansion and asking am i alone, because this affects me more than anything, this, the story, the azerite grinding are the 3 things that were the biggest problem in BfA for me. But classes specs no doubt they annoy me more because it's what i play with.
    Last edited by Annka; 2019-05-02 at 02:35 PM.

  14. #94
    High Overlord Cena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    The two elephants in the room are class design(gameplay) and reward structure.
    Ya that is the core I agree. That is my main reason for not playing this game right now. Gameplay and reward system is terrible and gave me no incentive to play. People can come with plenty of other issues, but ya the reward system is I would say the biggest reason why I stopped playing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    "Dude", listen, The being "up to me" will stop being "up to me" when more and more people starts noticing this. Stops to be a "me" to be a "us". It's not only "balancing", it's making them playable, there's specs that are forgotten, my biggest issue is with my alt frost DK but i play all classes just not paladin, i just don't really like it, therefore i see all the flaws. And not just the flaws that i'm talking about, i'm talking about -and if you read all my post- you'll understand that i'm talking about the lack of uniqueness of specs and fun in class design. Giving feedback is not the same as being toxic and just complaining, i'm giving feedback to the expansion and asking am i alone, because this affects me more than anything, this, the story, the azerite grinding are the 3 things that were the biggest problem in BfA for me. But classes specs no doubt they annoy me more because it's what i play with.
    Ya sure you can call it "us". Like I said there will a handful of people that agree and many that don't. My biggest problem with the expansion is the reward system and the acquisition of the rewards. Then again not everyone is going to agree with me and say they love the current azerite neck grinding. Lack of uniqueness is specs in my opinion will always be a problem.

  15. #95
    It all results in us feeling... weaker. Like we are so called champions, yet, we are weaker then ever. This despite most classes now able to defeat elites solo even with little effort.

    And this weakness comes from several sources, including class design, removal of old abilities, removal of the artifacts, the stat squish, azerite armor and it's constant need to redo your leveling of azerite level, removal of class armor sets.

    And yes, the current story is not helping either. Yeah all fine and dandy that there is a new war. But with Blizzard chickening out on serious reasons for the war other then stuff you can usually say 'nonsense, lies and deceit'. There is no emotional dedication other then mindless 'rawr this is WARcraft!'. And now we get forced to be the likely reason that the planet gets doomed to the old gods. Oh yay.
    I'm an altoholic since 2005.

  16. #96
    They removed all the fun Stuff Legion had! I told people in the Alpha that BFA looks like Garabge, but Blizz didn't care.

    The reason I liked Legion were the Unique Class- and Profession-Quests, the Unique Followers, the Class-Mounts and later on the Mage-Tower. That made me level up most Classes and actually play them for a bit to get them to a somewhat decent Gearlevel.

    In BFA I quit after 2 Weeks because there was no fucking reason to play. I had 3 120s but I saw no fucking point in grinding boring Dungeons or Raids for Gear, because I had no interest in doing more of that shit.

  17. #97
    High Overlord Cena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    You keep talking about "balance" while all people are complaining about is the "fun" playing those classes
    Whether its balance or fun everyone has something to complain about. And definition of fun in this game is different for a lot of people. I know some people in game that loves to just look at the outdoor world scenery and some that just loves staring at a naked female blood elf model. As bizarre as things can be I don't know how many other different definitions of fun people have.

  18. #98
    The Patient Annka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cena View Post
    Whether its balance or fun everyone has something to complain about. And definition of fun in this game is different for a lot of people. I know some people in game that loves to just look at the outdoor world scenery and some that just loves staring at a naked female blood elf model. As bizarre as things can be I don't know how many other different definitions of fun people have.
    Ok, let's not give any feedback, then. Is this better? What are the discussions for?
    Just because the fun for every person can be subjective, does not mean that part of the fun should be forgotten, you call it complain when it's a discussion and feedback, there's a big difference between one and another.

    I have explained and structured my post on the matter, what does annoy me and what doesn't, do i need to go further deep into detail and put spec to spec, class design management what is wrong so it's not a complaint?

  19. #99
    I don't think it can be reduced to one thing, every expansion has things that piss off the playerbase. For me anyway it was not just the number of bad class changes but the lack of anything positive to be excited about. An example would be last tier talents. As a rogue main I can remember every expansion getting hyped about crazy new max level talents and all the possibilities for using them, and I'd overlook shitty aspects of an expansion for this excitement. There was nothing exciting about BFA. It was just Legion with worse content, weaker and less fun characters. The first expansion where it really hit me in the face just how dumbed down the game has become.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    I feel like BfA was the first time an expansion actually literally went backwards.

    And I'm not talking about "wow this is so bad it's like we've gone backwards".

    All classes pretty much LOST abilities from their basic rotation (since they're exactly the same as Legion) except for hunters and warlocks, passives and appearances from tier sets. It just feels wrong.
    Exactly this. They didn't bothered with classes at all: "Hey, let's take away everything from the artefact weapons and add nothing: 2 in one: more pruning and nearly the same class design for everyone; ok, classes who needed this abilities are butchered, but so long; who cares."

    The player cares, they do.

    BfA is just a bad legion, and taking everything away, not even adding new abilities or a new talent row, because some kiddies would complain in the forums "they are too many abilities *bwaaaah*"; so they didn't add anything. We had 0 class progression in this; and after taking away sets, and everything else, and replaced it with this azerite CRAP; that's gonna be away in the next expansion anyway, this is by far not a progression.

    They removed everything and gave us the azerite-CRAP!

    But it's still only the seond biggest mistake of BfA

    The biggest mistake of BfA was even creating this expansion around a crappy faction war; and the whole expansion stinks like it was with our classes: they took away the capitals and replaced it with nothing. That's the tone of the whole expansion: we take things of you away and give you nothing to replace them.

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