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  1. #121
    The playstyle of classes being bad doesn't really resonate with me as a complaint, beyond maybe remembering an ability or two that were fun central parts of a rotation, and now no longer are because of nerfs or the ability no longer being in the game.

    Lately however I started to consider issues with the game at a much larger scale: the expansion cycle.

    Every patch it feels as if previous content is made obsolete, not only does it make the game feel really small, it also causes the fact that there can be no sense of continual character growth. While AP systems have been a very feeble hearted attempt to address that, the major meaningfull upgrades to your AP growth still come from patches. Eventually we get conditioned to this patch cycle and start just waiting around for the next content to come around, because effort in current content is just going to get washed away. Its even worse at the end of expansions.

    Wow needs to step away from expansion cycles and patches that cause content to become outdated. They need to start thinking about systems that allow for continuous character growth, so people can play the game without feeling like a pendulum of irrelevance is hanging above their heads.

    Solutions I imagine are for example:
    1. AP spec specific talent trees with 1000 or more possible points to invest in.
    2. Instead of increasing item level in new dungeons and raids reward instead unique sets of gear and items that might improve your performance, spec or playstyle, or upgrade the itemlevel of items from other raids and dungeons. That way beating new and old content will be a path to continuous character growth.

    This is never gonna happen though because the content and expansion cycle is probably more effective for quick bursts of increased revenue.
    Last edited by Rochana; 2019-05-03 at 06:02 AM.
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    The playstyle of classes being bad doesn't really resonate with me as a complaint, beyong maybe remembering an ability or two that were fun central parts ofa rotation, and now no longer are because of nerfs or the ability no longer being in the game.

    Lately however I started to consider issues with the game at a much larger scale: the expansion cycle.

    Every patch it feels as if previous content is made obsolete, not only does it make the game feel really small, it also causes the fact that there can be no sense of continual character growth. While AP systems have been a very feeble hearted solution to that, the major meaningfukl upgrades to your AP growth still came from patches. Eventually we get conditioned to this patch cycle and start just waiting around for the next content to comw around, because effort in current content is just going to get washed away. Its even worse at the end of expansions.

    Wow needs to step away from expansion cycles and patches that cause content to become outdated. They neef to start thinking about systems that allow for conyinuous character growth, so people can play the game without feeling like a pendulum of irrelevance is hanging above their heads.

    This is never gonna happen though because the content and expansion cycle is probably more effective for quick bursts of increased revenue.
    I think the main reason for that is that they see it worked for ONE expansion and they think people will be ok with the same system on a brand new expansion, which is not the case because yes it worked for Legion but BfA is a whole new different expansion and progression and sense of going forward is made by changes and not a edit of the previous expansion. Not a good cycle to follow. Like WoD brought mission table and they brought it to Legion, i know who didn't like the mission table and it's almost a tiring vision to see in Legion again. Then in BfA, we have another mission table. That is like the cycle you're talking about but i gave the mission table as an example, It doesn't feel fresh or a brand new expansion, it feels a loss with modified system but really similar and decay in quality as it no longer makes sense for the expansion.

  3. #123
    Biggest mistake of them all is the GCD bullshit.
    And the homogeneous specs

  4. #124
    Mechagnome Asaliah's Avatar
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    there is only one class that is truly unique in term of ability, flavor and utility: rogue.

    since the beginning of wow it's the best class finger in the nose

  5. #125
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    Ok, let's not give any feedback, then.
    Hah. How it wasn't seem strange, but my friend already 2 years ago, when we just met and started first talk about all of these themes, said, literally: "It seems the only way to be heard - is silent". Absurd, but after some explanations it began to seem that perhaps it's really could help, only idea itself is quite utopian.

    In a nutshell, idea is in kind of information boycott. If you're an active player, continue to play, but silently, if you don't play, then stop any active activity on forum (read only), no topics or comments on Twitter or social networks. No more beta tests and reviews from community... Give it six months or a year of informational starvation, no scandals (lack of even this form of PR), nothing... But, firstly, it's unrealistic to silence all community at once (here I don’t mean trolls, rather intellectual activity, in absence of which “evil will swallow itself with time”). Secondly, it's Classic preparing process now, and silence (even if we assume that no one hears us) still seems to me rather unfortunate decision.

    Although, how this not being sad, but friends comment very coldly on what is happening in this direction and sometimes tease (remembering things like sharding, loot distribution system and some other developer flaws) over my futile attempts to somehow influence situation, explain situation's flaws to everyone else (actually laughing at their! own! comments). On the other hand, they never intended to play it, because they are very offended by devs (even I mentioned this, for character models and other disgrace) back then, therefore I would like to treat this with a share of healthy skepticism (though, it's not much from big evilness, rather because they like to joke a lot about anything, which is especially noticeable with looking from side at how they communicate with each other). Probably this is why druid helps me to get warlock talking about specific current changes from time to time (or maybe he is just using me (but I don’t mind) because this looks like they have promised not to discuss it with each other anymore, and third person in some sense nullifies terms of this agreement).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-05-04 at 05:25 AM.
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  6. #126
    yes 10/char

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Hah. How it wasn't seem strange, but my friend already 2 years ago, when we just met and started first talk about all of these themes, said, literally: "It seems the only way to be heard - is silent". Absurd, but after some explanations it began to seem that perhaps it's really could help, only idea itself is quite utopian.

    In a nutshell, idea is in kind of information boycott. If you're an active player, continue to play, but silently, if you don't play, then stop any active activity on forum (read only), no topics or comments on Twitter or social networks. No more beta tests and reviews from community... Give it six months or a year of informational starvation, no scandals (lack of even this form of PR), nothing... But, firstly, it's unrealistic to silence all community at once (here I don’t mean trolls, since it means rather intellectual activity, in absence of which “evil will swallow itself with time”). Secondly, it's Classic preparing process now, and silence (even if we assume that no one hears us) still seems to me rather unfortunate decision.

    Although, how this not being sad, but friends comment very coldly on what is happening in this direction and sometimes over tease (remembering things like sharding, loot distribution system and some other developer flaws) my futile attempts to somehow influence situation, explain situation's flaws to everyone else (actually laugh at their! own! comments). On the other hand, they never intended to play it, because they are very offended by devs (even I mentioned this, for character models and other disgrace) back then, therefore I would like to treat this with a share of healthy skepticism (though, it's not much from big evilness, rather because they like to joke a lot about anything, which is especially noticeable with looking from side at how they communicate with each other). Probably this is why druid helps me to get warlock talking about specific current changes from time to time (or maybe he is just using me (but I don’t mind) because this looks like they have promised not to discuss it with each other anymore, and a third person in some sense nullifies the terms of this agreement).
    I start to think that maybe creating all this threads and talking about it, giving feedback even on in-game suggestions are just useless. Sometimes what talks higher is the silence. The silence shows something is wrong. Indeed your friend has his wisdom. I just feel the community never has a voice and the community would like to have a voice since they PAY to play and feels unfair that the community simply doesn't have that voice and let's not forget, the players and the fans is what makes the game sucessful as well.

  8. #128
    For me, class design is one of the biggest reason why i did quit.
    I played Classic, TBC, WOTLK, Cata, MOP, WOD.
    I played for 11 years World of Warcraft. It was just amazing.
    But i cannot find any reason to play Legion or BFA.
    My Mage doesn't feel a mage anymore. Too much abilitys got changed. Too much got wrong in class design.
    It doesnt matter how amazing the areas, landscape and dungeons are, if your main class is getting fucked up.

    The second thing what i hate is "levling your gear". This began with Legion and your Artefact weapon.
    I hate this soo much. When i reach max level i don't want to level a piece of gear again.

    Now im looking forward to the new release of Classic.
    + new economy
    + epics are epics
    + old talent planner.
    + old world
    + old class design
    + levling is a journey
    - no arena
    - no rbg

  9. #129
    I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

    The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Redecle View Post
    3 buttons doesn't mean it's always good, but mechanically is optimal. Engagement comes from the rotation or priority list. MM hunter for example seems more intuitive now than in Legion. Enhancement shaman is fluid than Legion. But prot warrior lost something, it lost something from Legion and it already lost some in WoD.
    Whaaat!!??
    Enhancement sham is fluid than Legion and prot warrior lost something ????
    It looks to me like you're playing another game, boy.
    Enha Sham is currently one of the worst specs in the game and talking about Enha legion was 100 times more fluid and fun to play than its lame version of BfA.
    Currently Prot Warrior despite having lost something compared to Legion is currently one of the funniest and strongest specs to use, especially in m +, the only flaw is its locked talent system.

  11. #131
    yes. they have only removed baseline abilities from last expansion and never gave anything back.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

    The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.
    You see this shouldn't be a thing. I know people that played since classic with the same class because they loved it. Trying other classes doesn't even compare to you enjoying that specifically class the most and only after expansions forward they sit and say: Ok, my class is not feeling good anymore. After playing with it for so long you end up getting a emotional-attachment to a character. "I did so much things with this character..."

    There is when it starts clicking to you... Things really change this much. Find a new class, yes easier said than done. Some people don't even like leveling and are just not interested in leveling another one.

  13. #133
    Their response to losing Artifacts was something like “we know it will feel bad at first, but you will forget it later”

    Their response to the GCD change was “we know it will feel bad at first, but it will feel better later”

    Their response to regrinding Azerite traits was “we know it feels bad, but that’s the system we have.”
    These are loose paraphrases of what was said.

    BFA is just an expansion. WoW’s problems is the developers unwillingness to compromise, an ever present disconnect with what makes an MMORPG fun, solutions to problems that utilize sledgehammers for thumb tacks, and no desire to really dig in to what makes the game fun.

    The Essence systems is a prime example of their disconnect. Players have been yearning for class abilities and utilities to be returned. And the next addition to our characters are just different variations of the WoD ring which was a dull and soullless item.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustykeyboard View Post
    yes. they have only removed baseline abilities from last expansion and never gave anything back.
    My thoughts right here. Many baseline abilities got weaker and weren't modified correctly in designs into this expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yassy View Post
    Their response to losing Artifacts was something like “we know it will feel bad at first, but you will forget it later”

    Their response to the GCD change was “we know it will feel bad at first, but it will feel better later”

    Their response to regrinding Azerite traits was “we know it feels bad, but that’s the system we have.”
    These are loose paraphrases of what was said.

    BFA is just an expansion. WoW’s problems is the developers unwillingness to compromise, an ever present disconnect with what makes an MMORPG fun, solutions to problems that utilize sledgehammers for thumb tacks, and no desire to really dig in to what makes the game fun.

    The Essence systems is a prime example of their disconnect. Players have been yearning for class abilities and utilities to be returned. And the next addition to our characters are just different variations of the WoD ring which was a dull and soullless item.
    GCDs makes my skin crawl. I don't even want to think about GCD's because that's implemented and won't go away apparently.

  15. #135
    Azerite System that ofc reflects on the current Class Design

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    Whaaat!!??
    Enhancement sham is fluid than Legion and prot warrior lost something ????
    It looks to me like you're playing another game, boy.
    Enha Sham is currently one of the worst specs in the game and talking about Enha legion was 100 times more fluid and fun to play than its lame version of BfA.
    Currently Prot Warrior despite having lost something compared to Legion is currently one of the funniest and strongest specs to use, especially in m +, the only flaw is its locked talent system.
    For me Guardian druid lost it's touched. It was in a good place in Legion. In BfA they want Frenzied Regeneration out of GCD and the change they do instead is:
    Frenzied Regeneration, at rank 3, now costs 10-30 rage (was 10-40 rage).

    Their reason:
    It was to stop the bear form to frenzy regen macros that pvp druids used.

    Stuff like this makes feel sick. Why do they listen to this complaints that barely mean anything, you get annoyed by a druid using his legit abilities to defeat you and you go cry to blizzard that they are too OP? Deal with it. This is what i don't like in blizzard they listen to "bwah" but not full amazing concepts that people create everyday and give a feedback of a class they play for so long, no, instead, they hear the crying of people that probably doesn't even understand the class and got rekt by a class.

    Anyway, prot warrior is better now and more fun. Warriors can be played and should be played by everyone, you even have warrior for all races, they should be always top tanks.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Annka View Post
    You see this shouldn't be a thing. I know people that played since classic with the same class because they loved it. Trying other classes doesn't even compare to you enjoying that specifically class the most and only after expansions forward they sit and say: Ok, my class is not feeling good anymore. After playing with it for so long you end up getting a emotional-attachment to a character. "I did so much things with this character..."

    There is when it starts clicking to you... Things really change this much. Find a new class, yes easier said than done. Some people don't even like leveling and are just not interested in leveling another one.
    People should not expect that every expansion Blizzard can do a perfect job on their class. There are just to many of them. And because of that, we can switch and play the one it will feel better. For instance, I love playing Ret. But if it didn't felt right I switched it. I started with Lock in Classic. Loved it until LK. Played it for couple of months, switched to Druid until Cata. Didn't like both in Cata so I leveled up Pala. Didn't like it either, but I sticked to it because I barely had time to play. In Mop I hated Ret but loved Holy, but I also played Feral as I wanted a DPS. Then came WoD. Didn't like Pala at all, nor Druid, Lock, hunter... So finally I found out Frost DK. So I mained that until Legion. But as WoD had little to do, I managed to level up every class till 100 so I can switch any time I get bored with a class. In Legion DK was weird at the start so after a short time with DH, Mage, Shaman... I went back to Ret and I loved and still love it.

    This is a game, this is not a live pet that you get attached to. You can switch your character any time you wish. And still you can return to your old beloved one. Leveling is fast, easy. You have potions. You have Darkmoon, Timewalking, Invasions... And a boost with every expansion.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

    The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.
    You are wrong,
    currently my main one is an ele sham 414 ilvl (and I also actively use restoration and enha).
    Then I have another 2 alt:
    a warrior 410 and also here I actively use both the spec tank and the dps (fury, the arms is painful).
    finally I have a rogue 404 ilvl.
    So I tried a total of 9 specs between tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps.
    Now if you ask me if I like playing them my answer is yes and no.
    Some like ele sham, prot and fury war are discrete, others are bad both in gameplay and in numbers like enha and arms.
    In general, however, the class design is TOO BANAL and too simplified and you always have the feeling of playing a spec that is missing something / half-done.
    Take for example the fury war, currently considered one of the funniest specs in the game but after a while it bores you as the main loop of its rotation revolves around only 3/4 spell (BT, RB, Rampage repeat, WW as filler and every 1.5 min Rackless). Furthermore the fury has a very bad talent system as there are many dead talents and no talent able to diversify your rotation or the way you play the spec (since BfA came out I have always used the same talents with the exception of DR in raid and BS in m +). Even trivial and low-impact AziBonuses do not improve the situation.

    Like the fury, many other specs have the same problems, some even more pronounced (see arms, enha, arcane, fire, dks, etc.).
    Unfortunately the problem as someone wrote is very complex and profound as it is the whole set that does not run (Class BaseLine, talent system, aziBonus, GCD, StatSquish, raid and Dung design etc).
    That can't be solved in one or two patches and I'm sure the blizz is already working on the new expansion (9.0).
    So you will have to wait in the best case 1 year, probably 1 and a half, the point here is how much players are willing to wait before 9.0 (always assuming that the blizz does not make the same mistakes as bfa).
    The 8.2 will surely bring some novelties and improvements but at present at level of class overhaul we have seen very little.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

    The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.
    You are wrong,
    currently my main one is an ele sham 414 ilvl (and I also actively use restoration and enha).
    Then I have another 2 alt:
    a warrior 410 and also here I actively use both the spec tank and the dps (fury, the arms is painful).
    finally I have a rogue 404 ilvl.
    So I tried a total of 9 specs between tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps.
    Now if you ask me if I like playing them my answer is yes and no.
    Some like ele sham, prot and fury war are discrete, others are bad both in gameplay and in numbers like enha and arms.
    In general, however, the class design is TOO BANAL and too simplified and you always have the feeling of playing a spec that is missing something / half-done.
    Take for example the fury war, currently considered one of the funniest specs in the game but after a while it bores you as the main loop of its rotation revolves around only 3/4 spell (BT, RB, Rampage repeat, WW as filler and every 1.5 min Rackless). Furthermore the fury has a very bad talent system as there are many dead talents and no talent able to diversify your rotation or the way you play the spec (since BfA came out I have always used the same talents with the exception of DR in raid and BS in m +). Even trivial and low-impact AziBonuses do not improve the situation.

    Like the fury, many other specs have the same problems, some even more pronounced (see arms, enha, arcane, fire, dks, etc.).
    Unfortunately the problem as someone wrote is very complex and profound as it is the whole set that does not run (Class BaseLine, talent system, aziBonus, GCD, StatSquish, raid and Dung design etc).
    That can't be solved in one or two patches and I'm sure the blizz is already working on the new expansion (9.0).
    So you will have to wait in the best case 1 year, probably 1 and a half, the point here is how much players are willing to wait before 9.0 (always assuming that the blizz does not make the same mistakes as bfa).
    The 8.2 will surely bring some novelties and improvements but at present at level of class overhaul we have seen very little.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    People should not expect that every expansion Blizzard can do a perfect job on their class. There are just to many of them. And because of that, we can switch and play the one it will feel better. For instance, I love playing Ret. But if it didn't felt right I switched it. I started with Lock in Classic. Loved it until LK. Played it for couple of months, switched to Druid until Cata. Didn't like both in Cata so I leveled up Pala. Didn't like it either, but I sticked to it because I barely had time to play. In Mop I hated Ret but loved Holy, but I also played Feral as I wanted a DPS. Then came WoD. Didn't like Pala at all, nor Druid, Lock, hunter... So finally I found out Frost DK. So I mained that until Legion. But as WoD had little to do, I managed to level up every class till 100 so I can switch any time I get bored with a class. In Legion DK was weird at the start so after a short time with DH, Mage, Shaman... I went back to Ret and I loved and still love it.

    This is a game, this is not a live pet that you get attached to. You can switch your character any time you wish. And still you can return to your old beloved one. Leveling is fast, easy. You have potions. You have Darkmoon, Timewalking, Invasions... And a boost with every expansion.
    Ye, too many. But it's a team for a reason, ain't just one person working on it. You misunderstanding me, i'm not saying you can't level another alt i'm saying that you don't need to always level one because the class is not having it's best days.

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