Were the classes the biggest mistake in BfA?

[Shakana]

Hah. How it wasn't seem strange, but my friend already 2 years ago, when we just met and started first talk about all of these themes, said, literally: "It seems the only way to be heard - is silent". Absurd, but after some explanations it began to seem that perhaps it's really could help, only idea itself is quite utopian.

In a nutshell, idea is in kind of information boycott. If you're an active player, continue to play, but silently, if you don't play, then stop any active activity on forum (read only), no topics or comments on Twitter or social networks. No more beta tests and reviews from community... Give it six months or a year of informational starvation, no scandals (lack of even this form of PR), nothing... But, firstly, it's unrealistic to silence all community at once (here I don’t mean trolls, since it means rather intellectual activity, in absence of which “evil will swallow itself with time”). Secondly, it's Classic preparing process now, and silence (even if we assume that no one hears us) still seems to me rather unfortunate decision.

Although, how this not being sad, but friends comment very coldly on what is happening in this direction and sometimes over tease (remembering things like sharding, loot distribution system and some other developer flaws) my futile attempts to somehow influence situation, explain situation's flaws to everyone else (actually laugh at their! own! comments). On the other hand, they never intended to play it, because they are very offended by devs (even I mentioned this, for character models and other disgrace) back then, therefore I would like to treat this with a share of healthy skepticism (though, it's not much from big evilness, rather because they like to joke a lot about anything, which is especially noticeable with looking from side at how they communicate with each other). Probably this is why druid helps me to get warlock talking about specific current changes from time to time (or maybe he is just using me (but I don’t mind) because this looks like they have promised not to discuss it with each other anymore, and a third person in some sense nullifies the terms of this agreement).

I start to think that maybe creating all this threads and talking about it, giving feedback even on in-game suggestions are just useless. Sometimes what talks higher is the silence. The silence shows something is wrong. Indeed your friend has his wisdom. I just feel the community never has a voice and the community would like to have a voice since they PAY to play and feels unfair that the community simply doesn't have that voice and let's not forget, the players and the fans is what makes the game sucessful as well.

[Int3g3r]

For me, class design is one of the biggest reason why i did quit.
I played Classic, TBC, WOTLK, Cata, MOP, WOD.
I played for 11 years World of Warcraft. It was just amazing.
But i cannot find any reason to play Legion or BFA.
My Mage doesn't feel a mage anymore. Too much abilitys got changed. Too much got wrong in class design.
It doesnt matter how amazing the areas, landscape and dungeons are, if your main class is getting fucked up.

The second thing what i hate is "levling your gear". This began with Legion and your Artefact weapon.
I hate this soo much. When i reach max level i don't want to level a piece of gear again.

Now im looking forward to the new release of Classic.
+ new economy
+ epics are epics
+ old talent planner.
+ old world
+ old class design
+ levling is a journey
- no arena
- no rbg

[Kauko]

I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.

[CiccioBello]

3 buttons doesn't mean it's always good, but mechanically is optimal. Engagement comes from the rotation or priority list. MM hunter for example seems more intuitive now than in Legion. Enhancement shaman is fluid than Legion. But prot warrior lost something, it lost something from Legion and it already lost some in WoD.

Whaaat!!??
Enhancement sham is fluid than Legion and prot warrior lost something ????
It looks to me like you're playing another game, boy.
Enha Sham is currently one of the worst specs in the game and talking about Enha legion was 100 times more fluid and fun to play than its lame version of BfA.
Currently Prot Warrior despite having lost something compared to Legion is currently one of the funniest and strongest specs to use, especially in m +, the only flaw is its locked talent system.

[Rustykeyboard]

yes. they have only removed baseline abilities from last expansion and never gave anything back.

[Shakana]

I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.

You see this shouldn't be a thing. I know people that played since classic with the same class because they loved it. Trying other classes doesn't even compare to you enjoying that specifically class the most and only after expansions forward they sit and say: Ok, my class is not feeling good anymore. After playing with it for so long you end up getting a emotional-attachment to a character. "I did so much things with this character..."

There is when it starts clicking to you... Things really change this much. Find a new class, yes easier said than done. Some people don't even like leveling and are just not interested in leveling another one.

[Yassy]

Their response to losing Artifacts was something like “we know it will feel bad at first, but you will forget it later”

Their response to the GCD change was “we know it will feel bad at first, but it will feel better later”

Their response to regrinding Azerite traits was “we know it feels bad, but that’s the system we have.”
These are loose paraphrases of what was said.

BFA is just an expansion. WoW’s problems is the developers unwillingness to compromise, an ever present disconnect with what makes an MMORPG fun, solutions to problems that utilize sledgehammers for thumb tacks, and no desire to really dig in to what makes the game fun.

The Essence systems is a prime example of their disconnect. Players have been yearning for class abilities and utilities to be returned. And the next addition to our characters are just different variations of the WoD ring which was a dull and soullless item.

[Shakana]

yes. they have only removed baseline abilities from last expansion and never gave anything back.

My thoughts right here. Many baseline abilities got weaker and weren't modified correctly in designs into this expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Their response to losing Artifacts was something like “we know it will feel bad at first, but you will forget it later”

Their response to the GCD change was “we know it will feel bad at first, but it will feel better later”

Their response to regrinding Azerite traits was “we know it feels bad, but that’s the system we have.”
These are loose paraphrases of what was said.

BFA is just an expansion. WoW’s problems is the developers unwillingness to compromise, an ever present disconnect with what makes an MMORPG fun, solutions to problems that utilize sledgehammers for thumb tacks, and no desire to really dig in to what makes the game fun.

The Essence systems is a prime example of their disconnect. Players have been yearning for class abilities and utilities to be returned. And the next addition to our characters are just different variations of the WoD ring which was a dull and soullless item.

GCDs makes my skin crawl. I don't even want to think about GCD's because that's implemented and won't go away apparently.

[Daikoku]

Azerite System that ofc reflects on the current Class Design

[Shakana]

Whaaat!!??
Enhancement sham is fluid than Legion and prot warrior lost something ????
It looks to me like you're playing another game, boy.
Enha Sham is currently one of the worst specs in the game and talking about Enha legion was 100 times more fluid and fun to play than its lame version of BfA.
Currently Prot Warrior despite having lost something compared to Legion is currently one of the funniest and strongest specs to use, especially in m +, the only flaw is its locked talent system.

For me Guardian druid lost it's touched. It was in a good place in Legion. In BfA they want Frenzied Regeneration out of GCD and the change they do instead is:
Frenzied Regeneration, at rank 3, now costs 10-30 rage (was 10-40 rage).

Their reason:
It was to stop the bear form to frenzy regen macros that pvp druids used.

Stuff like this makes feel sick. Why do they listen to this complaints that barely mean anything, you get annoyed by a druid using his legit abilities to defeat you and you go cry to blizzard that they are too OP? Deal with it. This is what i don't like in blizzard they listen to "bwah" but not full amazing concepts that people create everyday and give a feedback of a class they play for so long, no, instead, they hear the crying of people that probably doesn't even understand the class and got rekt by a class.

Anyway, prot warrior is better now and more fun. Warriors can be played and should be played by everyone, you even have warrior for all races, they should be always top tanks.

[Kauko]

You see this shouldn't be a thing. I know people that played since classic with the same class because they loved it. Trying other classes doesn't even compare to you enjoying that specifically class the most and only after expansions forward they sit and say: Ok, my class is not feeling good anymore. After playing with it for so long you end up getting a emotional-attachment to a character. "I did so much things with this character..."

There is when it starts clicking to you... Things really change this much. Find a new class, yes easier said than done. Some people don't even like leveling and are just not interested in leveling another one.

People should not expect that every expansion Blizzard can do a perfect job on their class. There are just to many of them. And because of that, we can switch and play the one it will feel better. For instance, I love playing Ret. But if it didn't felt right I switched it. I started with Lock in Classic. Loved it until LK. Played it for couple of months, switched to Druid until Cata. Didn't like both in Cata so I leveled up Pala. Didn't like it either, but I sticked to it because I barely had time to play. In Mop I hated Ret but loved Holy, but I also played Feral as I wanted a DPS. Then came WoD. Didn't like Pala at all, nor Druid, Lock, hunter... So finally I found out Frost DK. So I mained that until Legion. But as WoD had little to do, I managed to level up every class till 100 so I can switch any time I get bored with a class. In Legion DK was weird at the start so after a short time with DH, Mage, Shaman... I went back to Ret and I loved and still love it.

This is a game, this is not a live pet that you get attached to. You can switch your character any time you wish. And still you can return to your old beloved one. Leveling is fast, easy. You have potions. You have Darkmoon, Timewalking, Invasions... And a boost with every expansion.

[CiccioBello]

I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.

You are wrong,
currently my main one is an ele sham 414 ilvl (and I also actively use restoration and enha).
Then I have another 2 alt:
a warrior 410 and also here I actively use both the spec tank and the dps (fury, the arms is painful).
finally I have a rogue 404 ilvl.
So I tried a total of 9 specs between tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps.
Now if you ask me if I like playing them my answer is yes and no.
Some like ele sham, prot and fury war are discrete, others are bad both in gameplay and in numbers like enha and arms.
In general, however, the class design is TOO BANAL and too simplified and you always have the feeling of playing a spec that is missing something / half-done.
Take for example the fury war, currently considered one of the funniest specs in the game but after a while it bores you as the main loop of its rotation revolves around only 3/4 spell (BT, RB, Rampage repeat, WW as filler and every 1.5 min Rackless). Furthermore the fury has a very bad talent system as there are many dead talents and no talent able to diversify your rotation or the way you play the spec (since BfA came out I have always used the same talents with the exception of DR in raid and BS in m +). Even trivial and low-impact AziBonuses do not improve the situation.

Like the fury, many other specs have the same problems, some even more pronounced (see arms, enha, arcane, fire, dks, etc.).
Unfortunately the problem as someone wrote is very complex and profound as it is the whole set that does not run (Class BaseLine, talent system, aziBonus, GCD, StatSquish, raid and Dung design etc).
That can't be solved in one or two patches and I'm sure the blizz is already working on the new expansion (9.0).
So you will have to wait in the best case 1 year, probably 1 and a half, the point here is how much players are willing to wait before 9.0 (always assuming that the blizz does not make the same mistakes as bfa).
The 8.2 will surely bring some novelties and improvements but at present at level of class overhaul we have seen very little.

[CiccioBello]

I play ret at the moment and its the best since... ever. Ok, mobility is an issue against some classes. But heck, you know what to expect when you choose your class. Why bit*h about mobility if your class is not meant to be mobile? We bit*hed about to many stuff and thats why devs went to far, just to please the most vocal player base.

The main problem is, that people choose one class, don't like it and instead of switching, they stick to it for months. After that they just don't want to repeat the process of gathering azerite, gear etc etc. Take your time at the beginning of expansions. Everyone thinks they are World First racers... YOU ARE NOT! Don't stick to one class. Level up, do some dungeons, pvp, raids. Start leveling again. Until you find what fits you most. I tried Druid, DK, DH and Ret. Was pleased with Ret as my main and thats it. Still if I get bored, there are other classes.

You are wrong,
currently my main one is an ele sham 414 ilvl (and I also actively use restoration and enha).
Then I have another 2 alt:
a warrior 410 and also here I actively use both the spec tank and the dps (fury, the arms is painful).
finally I have a rogue 404 ilvl.
So I tried a total of 9 specs between tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps.
Now if you ask me if I like playing them my answer is yes and no.
Some like ele sham, prot and fury war are discrete, others are bad both in gameplay and in numbers like enha and arms.
In general, however, the class design is TOO BANAL and too simplified and you always have the feeling of playing a spec that is missing something / half-done.
Take for example the fury war, currently considered one of the funniest specs in the game but after a while it bores you as the main loop of its rotation revolves around only 3/4 spell (BT, RB, Rampage repeat, WW as filler and every 1.5 min Rackless). Furthermore the fury has a very bad talent system as there are many dead talents and no talent able to diversify your rotation or the way you play the spec (since BfA came out I have always used the same talents with the exception of DR in raid and BS in m +). Even trivial and low-impact AziBonuses do not improve the situation.

Like the fury, many other specs have the same problems, some even more pronounced (see arms, enha, arcane, fire, dks, etc.).
Unfortunately the problem as someone wrote is very complex and profound as it is the whole set that does not run (Class BaseLine, talent system, aziBonus, GCD, StatSquish, raid and Dung design etc).
That can't be solved in one or two patches and I'm sure the blizz is already working on the new expansion (9.0).
So you will have to wait in the best case 1 year, probably 1 and a half, the point here is how much players are willing to wait before 9.0 (always assuming that the blizz does not make the same mistakes as bfa).
The 8.2 will surely bring some novelties and improvements but at present at level of class overhaul we have seen very little.

[Shakana]

People should not expect that every expansion Blizzard can do a perfect job on their class. There are just to many of them. And because of that, we can switch and play the one it will feel better. For instance, I love playing Ret. But if it didn't felt right I switched it. I started with Lock in Classic. Loved it until LK. Played it for couple of months, switched to Druid until Cata. Didn't like both in Cata so I leveled up Pala. Didn't like it either, but I sticked to it because I barely had time to play. In Mop I hated Ret but loved Holy, but I also played Feral as I wanted a DPS. Then came WoD. Didn't like Pala at all, nor Druid, Lock, hunter... So finally I found out Frost DK. So I mained that until Legion. But as WoD had little to do, I managed to level up every class till 100 so I can switch any time I get bored with a class. In Legion DK was weird at the start so after a short time with DH, Mage, Shaman... I went back to Ret and I loved and still love it.

This is a game, this is not a live pet that you get attached to. You can switch your character any time you wish. And still you can return to your old beloved one. Leveling is fast, easy. You have potions. You have Darkmoon, Timewalking, Invasions... And a boost with every expansion.

Ye, too many. But it's a team for a reason, ain't just one person working on it. You misunderstanding me, i'm not saying you can't level another alt i'm saying that you don't need to always level one because the class is not having it's best days.

[Lord Pebbleton]

For me the #1 mistake with BFA is the story. Then comes everything else that was already mentioned. The problem with the story is that there is no way for them to ever fix it again going forward. They will never dismantle the Horde. So the story between the factions will never again make any sense going forward.

Classes, Azerite and Tier can all be fixed in the next expansion. The story-foundations of the game being utterly destroyed can never be restored as long as they are not willing to change the factions at their core (name, symbol, everything) - which they won't do.

I kinda agree with this for a few reasons.
I main Alliance. I had the big fist-pumping moment in MoP with the "we will end you if you don't behave" speech.
Fast forward a couple years, horde not only did not behave, but burned Teldrassil to ashes.
At this point, the Alliance cannot have any wins against the horde. Because if we win, this time around it would be completely absurd, unthinkable and disgusting to not carry forward the threat issued by Varian (don't want to hear any more honor shit, if Anduin is too soft hearted you have other angry alliance leaders ready to carry it through). On the other hand, you cannot have a faction based game where one faction gets dismantled. And if Alliance is bound to lose every battle from now on because of this, that would be even worse.

So yeah, unless they pull out an incredible and totally plausible situation in which the status quo can be maintained, I can see a lot of people being fed up with bs narration. And I fear we won't get that kind of closure.

Also agree with OP. My hunter doesn't really feel like a hunter anymore.

[dussenbar]

I play a BM/MM hunter since Legion/BFA and I'm having fun so far. Don't see why people are that upset.

[Crackleslap]

Agree. Blizzard should focus more on classes, make them fun again. Stop the pruning and the global cooldown change fucking no one asked for. Also maybe, just maybe add some new abilities also and talents. I'm aware this is harder too balance, but alas I don't really care. I'm a casual raider, and I care not if classes are unbalanced.

[Irian]

I think it's a tie between classes and Azerite. Azerite ensures that rewards for completing content never feel satisfying, and class design ensures that the journey to those rewards doesn't feel good either.

Both are impressively tone-deaf indications of the WoW developer team not understanding their own game, which does more damage than a simple design mistake or an idea that didn't quite pan out. I can talk a lot of shit on WoD but at least I can look back at it and properly understand why it turned out the way it did, the primary feature was an idea that was shown too early and didn't really have the time or tech to flesh out the way they did. For BfA, I can see no huge and grand vision for what they wanted the expansion to be, just a lot of half-hearted new ideas that went nowhere and aren't enjoyable.

On a personal level, I feel like class design in BfA is proof that the current design of talents isn't working out. I wish active abilities just weren't on talent rows at all, and instead they were all significant passives instead. In return almost every talent option would be baked in baseline to our classes, leading to a pretty respectable set of options for each class.
This may be a personal gripe, but I'm really tired of having to rearrange my bars when talents get nerfed/buffed, or for classes that have different talent sets for M+, PvP, etc. It doesn't really feel rewarding to lose active abilities in favor of passives or have awkward AoE abilities that kind of have a use in my ST rotation. I'd really rather just have fleshed-out classes with a unique row of passives that augment or change the role of certain spells.

[Chemii]

No Active Talents would be a start. The game used to have interactive passives that actually impacted gameplay and your rotation, it's a shadow of its former self, talents specifically piss me off more and more every expansion, super lazy, pruned abilities become talent "choices".

Azerite is a meme for most classes, thoughtless stat increases either constant or periodic.

Like I've said countless times on these forums, class design is paramount, it makes even the shittest experience tolerable. WoD was heavily pruned post MoP but the class design and raids carried that expansion.

It pains me everytime I think about my Rogue/DK/Warlock how shit they are by comparison now.

[Aphrel]

Imo the big issue with classes is that cooldowns are now on the gcd.. It feels absolutly awful in pve.
Add to that removal of some serious quality of life rotation mechanics and classes feel like they have permanent curse of tounges on them..

It might start to feel better once we go into the last teirs simply becasue of added haste. Lets hope it does...

Oh and lets not forget. No setbonuses. Only boring azerite traits that doesnt change how i play the spec in the slightest.

The Fire trait that gave a buff from fireblast was fun, it actually did something, changed how i play the spec. Was the new playstyle enjoyable? Debatable but im happy that it did SOMETHING, it was noticable.

But ofc blizzard broke the fun and made the talent useless (read: worse than passive traits).