8.2. choice [Horde Player Character goes beastmode]

[Wyrt]

The attack on Ashenvale and the humans defending the Night elves in Wolfheart was the human's war now?

Yes, because that war was started by Varian without even so much as consulting any other race. And the night elves paid for that war with blood.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And I'd be okay with that if it meant that the Horde would actually be treated as the blatantly evil faction it has become.

You know what that entails, right? That every other faction that has any interest in saving the world from villains will help the Alliance eradicate the Horde. There would be no place for neutrality, no place for "Oh, but it's just a difference in beliefs!"

with how utterly incompetent the Alliance consistently is, there is an equal chance they get burned so bad that their stupid good isn't strong enough to beat the stupid evil Blizzard ham-fisted into Sylvanas's Horde. Locking them in an eternal cold war.

[Mehrunes]

Would you like to describe to me what choice an Alliance character will have when the Horde gets a new Warchief and Anduin Wrynn, the sweet angel that he is, decrees that we should just forgive and forget and give them another chance because they can't be held accountable for what the big bad Sylvanas did?

I'll be waiting.

Given how the Horde effectively gets no choice at all and people actually loyal to the Horde will continue "playing along" until they help Baine and the rest of traitors put Sylvanas' head on a spike, are you really trying to pretend there's an actual difference between the factions here?

[Combatbutler]

The attack on Ashenvale and the humans defending the Night elves in Wolfheart was the human's war now?

Considering Varian laid the foundations for it, with the other hothead on the other side pretty much. Garrosh and Varians relationship was the driving force behind the war and got all out ,the moment Garrosh had the necessary power to show the human who is boss.

[Yarathir]

with how utterly incompetent the Alliance consistently is, there is an equal chance they get burned so bad that their stupid good isn't strong enough to beat the stupid evil Blizzard ham-fisted into Sylvanas's Horde. Locking them in an eternal cold war.

I'm not saying what would or will be- just what should be.

Blizzard would never call the full weight of the Horde's sins as an evil faction down upon them, the rest of the world sans the Alliance would just treat them as if they were a faction of honorable underdogs like they do now.

[Wyrt]

The Night Elves never stopped being at War with the orcs. They were at war throughout Classic. Garrosh totally only attacked Ashenvale because Varian declared war . . .

The night elves even had trade agreements with the Horde before Varian started the war and the night elves cut off the trade.

Night elves have time and time again shed blood for the Alliance and have gotten nothing in return.

[Yarathir]

Given how the Horde effectively gets no choice at all and people actually loyal to the Horde will continue "playing along" until they help Baine and the rest of traitors put Sylvanas' head on a spike, are you really trying to pretend there's an actual difference between the factions here?

Yes. One faction got to have some semblance of choice after nearly eradicating a species before Blizzard realized it was untenable to have the Horde be Scourge 2.0 yet at the same time pass them off as underdogs who mean well.

The other faction waltzed into Undercity, let a genocidal warmonger who considers life a curse and hope a disease sashay her way up to that dumb boy-king character so that she could "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE," in his face, fly out of a window that didn't exist before and nearly kill them with the blight. And when the expansion is over with, they'll get to have the scraps from killing Sylvanas and be told to play nice and forgive and forget because the Horde was actually really sad about nearly killing the entire Night Elf population, so it's okay.

[therealstegblob]

You're so angry.

No, I just don't suffer egotists who think they "know how to make the game the best" when all they do is offer halfbaked/poorly thought up ideas. Idea guys give legitimate creative conceptors a bad name; there's a difference between the two. Having an idea you think would be cool is fine, but having an ego about it is crossing a line and turning you into an asshole.

The 3rd faction would be limited to the world. We're not going to break up guilds because the players have a different in-game political opinion.

What happens when a guildie needs some help with something but their other guildie can't come to their location because they picked different factions? The answer is that you can only make this decision so 'deep' until it's to the point it's going too far, and that doesn't take long to get to. In the end the best you'd be able to really have is an Aldor/Scryer thing, which is to say: pretty shallow.

I don't think what's in the game right now is very good, but there's not much of an alternative to it because the story is ultimately railroaded anyways, which means you can only offer shallow and ultimately pointless decisions. Entering into a logistical nightmare of making a "third faction" (that only one faction has access to and that would elicit deep complaints of WTF WHY MY FACTION BREAK UP BUT ALLIANCE NOT) just to dress up what is ultimately a railroaded story with "third faction specific cities" and "world-based third faction stuff that doesn't extend to guilds and instances" is not a good concept. You are not a critically minded/forward thinking developer, you are a classic 'idea guy' who thinks he knows everything.

I know your brain may not be able to comprehend a complex political situation where people can fight people that hold a different belief then show up to work with another group of people that they also disagree with but that's been happening in Israel for decades.

Yeah, I'm sorry to break it to you, but only one of us is unable to comprehend greater concepts here; and it's not me.

[Nirn]

Nah, Anduin will negotiate a peace deal without the night elves getting a say and they'll just have to accept it. Exactly as his daddy did.

The tragedy is, that will probably happen.

[Combatbutler]

Garrosh did not need any prodding to continue the war the Warsong have been engaged in since the very first day of WoW.

It doesn't change the main point, the warsong was a skirmish. Garrosh and Varian are the ones that drove the factions to all out war over a few years, they constantly poked each other and drove their people, using any excuse to go at each other. Once the ball was rolling it was nigh impossible to stop. So yeah Varian played a massive role in the whole scheme of things.

[Yarathir]

The tragedy is, that will probably happen.

Probably? It's 100% gonna happen.

[Combatbutler]

Probably? It's 100% gonna happen.

It pretty much already has, Anduin is going on about permanent peace once Sylvanas is gone.

[Wyrt]

It doesn't change the main point, the warsong was a skirmish. Garrosh and Varian are the ones that drove the factions to all out war over a few years, they constantly poked each other and drove their people, using any excuse to go at each other. Once the ball was rolling it was nigh impossible to stop. So yeah Varian played a massive role in the whole scheme of things.

And then Varian got off free of any and all blame because reasons.

The Wrynn family really is a plague on the Warcraft story.

[Mehrunes]

Again, the problem is not Anduin, it's the story. Anduin as a character makes sense in every spot he is. The fact that other characters have no consistency to follow the story is not about Anduin, it's about them having poor character development and about the story being nonsensical.
I mean just explain to me where Anduin's character fails to make sense. Give me a few examples. Most of us hate on characters like Baine because he is so inconsistent you can only see him as a hypocrit. But Anduin is not really inconsistent. Other characters might be around him but it is about them, not about him.

What game are you playing? Baine is the single most consistent character in the entire game. He's consistently shit, but he has a spotless track record of being shit.

And at this point you're misrepresenting the criticism of Anduin. Other than you no one said a word about whether Anduin is consistent or not. What is being said is that other characters react nonsensically to everything Anduin is doing. Which contrary to what you're saying here, is 100% on Anduin.

Because the writers are treating Anduin as the perfect being. That's why they make everyone else kowtow to him no matter how little sense it makes for them. Because, in Blizzard's mind, why would they react in any other way to the perfection that is Anduin, the first of his name when he's oh so amazing?

So, in typical Blizzard fashion, they contort the story in a way that makes Anduin look loved and respected by all without paying any attention to how shit they are writing Anduin himself. Sacrificing other characters on Anduin's altar to prop him up instead of writing Anduin in a way that'd actually warrant him getting respected and praised is a fault of his character. He's the story-telling equivalent of a black hole, sucking everyone else into him and shredding their characters apart.

[Soon-TM]

The Alliance has constantly shed blood to defend Night Elf interests in Kalimdor since classic.

Weird, I can't recall ANY non-NE military camp in the entire freaking Kalimdor (other than Theramore) before Cataclysm. As for pre-Cata questing, you are NEVER asked to go to Kalimdor to lend a hand to NEs, except that one lowbie dungeon quest from Gershalas in SW park. So no.

[Yarathir]

It pretty much already has, Anduin is going on about permanent peace once Sylvanas is gone.

Like that time he said the only solution was to kill Sylvanas and a week later in Undercity, instead of barging into the throne room and immediately filling a defenseless Sylvanas with arrows, frostbolts and claw marks, he told her she needed to come with him alive, let her walk her way up to him so she could be snarky at him and then scream in his face before flying out.

[Senel]

Better to stomp on a thousand corpses than for a second buy into Blizzard's Hysterical attempt at a moral lesson in a game called World of Warcraft. It's hysterical..

This. I don't even give too many fucks about Sylvanas. What I hate the most is this supposed "moral high ground" we must abide while the PC murders thousands of living beings in cold blood. Moral lessons make me puke. Why do series like GoT make such success? Because no one likes forced shitty moral lessons. In WAR everything goes, with good rationale behind.

[Combatbutler]

And then Varian got off free of any and all blame because reasons.

The Wrynn family really is a plague on the Warcraft story.

Humans in general are a plague on the story narrative, no matter how you look at it. They take over almost every story narrative they are in and are shoved constantly down your throat, in neutral parties as great leaders you have to interact with constantly.

[Yarathir]

This. I don't even give too many fucks about Sylvanas. What I hate the most is this supposed "moral high ground" we must abide while the PC murders thousands of living beings in cold blood. Moral lessons make me puke. Why do series like GoT make such success? Because no one likes forced shitty moral lessons. In WAR everything goes, with good rationale behind.

Sounds really edgy, but not true.

Even the WoW universe has a set of morals and a concept of war crimes- mainly informed by, of course, the views of the writers.

[Wyrt]

Humans in general are a plague on the story narrative, no matter how you look at it. They take over almost every story narrative they are in and are shoved constantly down your throat, in neutral parties as great leaders you have to interact with constantly.

Yeah.

The draenei's Army of Light shows up for the draenei to finally take vengeance against the Legion and Sargeras and who's leading it? A goddamn fucking human.