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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    The writing team clearly likes a lot the saturday cartoons.

    Well I guess the zandalari got some nice writing and spotlight in their conflicts and we got Talanji and more trolls characters
    Last edited by Maxrokur; 2019-05-03 at 02:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Lor'themar is just jealous of Baine's friendship with Anduin. When Lor'themar tried to be friends with the Alliance, it immediately bit him in the ass.
    Lor'themar is just jealous that, unlike Baine, he couldn't get !@#$ed in the ass by a Wrynn. Baine-itis is turning into a real pandemic tbh.

    More on topic, I'd very much prefer casting a HUGE pyroblast on that silly cow and have the BBQ ready to be served, rather than freeing his treacherous, stinky rear.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2019-05-03 at 02:17 PM.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  3. #23
    Lorthemar just quote what Taran Zhu said during the 5.2

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Lorthemar just quote what Taran Zhu said during the 5.2
    That's what i found the weirdest about his lines.
    He remembered enough about the war in Pandaria to recall that the Alliance and Horde was at war, but not enough to consider the ramifications of this being the second time this exact scenario happened.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Lorthemar just quote what Taran Zhu said during the 5.2
    Maybe Taran Zhu should tell that the night elfs. Also she should lay on the ground dead after he said that.

  6. #26
    Lor'themar says:
    We must save him. It is the only way to preserve who we are. What we stand for.
    Yet through his entire history as a ruler of Blood Elves, he actually ruled in a way that is the very antithesis to the way of Baine ruled the United Tauren tribes. When has Lor'themar had any sort of meaningful discussion with Baine? Never.

  7. #27
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    Lor'themar says:

    Yet through his entire history as a ruler of Blood Elves, he actually ruled in a way that is the very antithesis to the way of Baine ruled the United Tauren tribes. When has Lor'themar had any sort of meaningful discussion with Baine? Never.
    I think the idea is that Baine has now been promoted to the symbol of organized dissent against Sylvanas. Baine represents the things Sylvanas does not, but not in a direct 1:1 sense. He's just the martyr figure the anti-Sylvanas coalition has decided to use as their standard.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    Lor'themar says:

    Yet through his entire history as a ruler of Blood Elves, he actually ruled in a way that is the very antithesis to the way of Baine ruled the United Tauren tribes.
    Isn't that the point? When talking with Thalyssra, one of the things that she admired about the Horde is that they let Lor'themar rule as he chooses. If that's to hold any meaning, he can't exactly allow Sylvanas to just do whatever the fuck she wants with people she considers insufficiently loyal or who refuse to do things her way.

    Besides, they rule similarly enough. When people are a political difficulty, they get exiled.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the idea is that Baine has now been promoted to the symbol of organized dissent against Sylvanas. Baine represents the things Sylvanas does not, but not in a direct 1:1 sense. He's just the martyr figure the anti-Sylvanas coalition has decided to use as their standard.
    I can see that; Baine as a banner around which to gather, so to speak.

  10. #30
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Lor’themar has fallen. I knew him getting attention would only bring bad things.

    Not getting attention is the best thing that can happen to characters in this game.

    Thank god the Sunreaver survives and you can play through this without killing anyone (Though you do have to stand back and let the Alliance do the killing).

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    in the dialogues that we have already seen, sylvanas says that the sinking of the fleets of the horde and the alliance was part of her plan to kill the members of the horde that she believed were not loyal, lorthemar and thalysra are in nazjatar when they ask you that free baine! that means that sylvanas first tried to kill them.
    This is a stretch on your part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hallowseve17 View Post
    I don't get it, people.

    Yes, the story and writing has been pretty bad this expansion, but why do people keep saying Lor'themar's character has been butchered? He has always acted like this. I see no difference. I think he is the only Horde leader that has actually been consistent in recent expansions.
    Since when does Lor'themar think that Baine out of all people represents all that is good in the Horde? Since when does Lor'themar think that imprisoning literal traitors is a dangerous precedent and that executing them is going to drive a dagger through the heart of the Horde when he's been dealing with dissent with a rather heavy hand himself? Since when does he even care about who represents the best in the Horde or whether there's going to be a dagger shoved in its heart when he has always been about Blood Elves and was willing to bail on the Horde the second it appeared to him the Blood Elves would be better off without it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    why? On numerous occasions Lorthemar has shown that he hates the current sylvanas and feels that Baine is a good person.
    to lorthemar this war must be something terribly stupid the only thing that matters to him is the well-being of his people and a war with the alliance is not exactly the best way to protect the lives of the blood elves, in addition sylvanas is raising dead blood elves she must die
    Already covered mostly above. But when were those occasions in which Lor'themar has shown he thinks anything in particular about Baine? The two barely ever existed in the same room at the same time. And the dialogue between the two has zero lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    The dude never even talks to Anduin, nor has he ever said even one good thing about the kid. I think Anduin is living rent free in your head. Lor'themar interacts primarily with Jaina and Genn this patch, and that's who he's getting along with just fine.
    I think you are deliberately ignoring how Baine is essentially Anduin's extension in the Horde at this point. And would you look at that, Lor'themar is fawning over him in this questline. But hey, getting infected by Blanduin's cancer from Baine has nothing to do with Blanduin, because reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Lor'themar is just jealous that, unlike Baine, he couldn't get !@#$ed in the ass by a Wrynn. Baine-itis is turning into a real pandemic tbh.

    More on topic, I'd very much prefer casting a HUGE pyroblast on that silly cow and have the BBQ ready to be served, rather than freeing his treacherous, stinky rear.
    If only the flame vents we see near the end of the scenario were a bit further back...


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the idea is that Baine has now been promoted to the symbol of organized dissent against Sylvanas. Baine represents the things Sylvanas does not, but not in a direct 1:1 sense. He's just the martyr figure the anti-Sylvanas coalition has decided to use as their standard.
    Given the rest of his dialogue about Baine that'd mean that according to Lor'themar the Horde stands for dissent against the Warchief. Plus if Lor'themar was all about dissent against Sylvanas, he would have joined Baine before and not act only in reaction to what he considered to be unjust punishment (which makes zero fucking sense because even according to Baine's worldview Sylvanas was lenient). And he wouldn't talk about how he was following Sylvanas just fine until now.

    So chances are he's talking about Baine's other qualities, like bending over when attacked by the Alliance and/or his complete and unending sycophancy to his human masters. You know, because that's exactly the lesson we did not learn in Pandaria and that Blizzard is currently pushing at all costs, no matter how much they have to butcher Horde characters to arrive at that conclusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Isn't that the point? When talking with Thalyssra, one of the things that she admired about the Horde is that they let Lor'themar rule as he chooses. If that's to hold any meaning, he can't exactly allow Sylvanas to just do whatever the fuck she wants with people she considers insufficiently loyal or who refuse to do things her way.

    Besides, they rule similarly enough. When people are a political difficulty, they get exiled.
    Oh, please, who are you trying to convince here with these mental gymnastics? Baine isn't just "insufficiently loyal". He's a literal traitor. As per his own standards of treason he established during Garrosh's defense. And as per those same standards of Baine himself, Sylvanas was lenient when she merely imprisoned him, yet somehow almost everyone in the Horde lost their shit about that. And other than not being able to commit treason - you know, just like in any nation ever - Sylvanas doesn't tell the racial leaders how to lead their people at all as long as they stick with the Horde. So you trying to project this situation onto Thallysra's and Lor'themar's desire to rule as they choose makes zero sense. That value isn't being threatened by this in any way, shape or form. And Lor'themar exiled people who threatened the well-being of his nation. Baine exiled people who threatened the well-being of his Alliance overlords. "Similar enough".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  12. #32
    Its getting tiresome all this horde inner drama bullshit, either way how blizzard gonna handle sylvanas in the end will make playerbase unhappy, im sure of it.

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobman View Post
    Its getting tiresome all this horde inner drama bullshit, either way how blizzard gonna handle sylvanas in the end will make playerbase unhappy, im sure of it.
    They painted themselves into a corner with the whole crazy Sylvanas (tm) plot. The only logical outcomes are, from less likely to more likely:

    1) Sylvanas is successful in her campaign => Angry Ally players.

    2) Sylvanas is defeated, which means she must step down, either on her own or by force => MoP 2.0 = Angry Horde players.

    3) Sylvanas is ascended ala Kerrigan, aka "only I knew from the very beginning what was to be done and everyone else was too dumb to understand" => Angry Horde and Ally players.
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    They painted themselves into a corner with the whole crazy Sylvanas (tm) plot. The only logical outcomes are, from less likely to more likely:

    1) Sylvanas is successful in her campaign => Angry Ally players.

    2) Sylvanas is defeated, which means she must step down, either on her own or by force => MoP 2.0 = Angry Horde players.

    3) Sylvanas is ascended ala Kerrigan, aka "only I knew from the very beginning what was to be done and everyone else was too dumb to understand" => Angry Horde and Ally players.
    Basically agree with what you said, just one small addition to option 2:
    The Horde marched on Teldrassil. Not Sylvanas. The Horde. The ENTIRE Horde. And while many of them might not have been particular happy about it, there was no real uproar about burning children and holy places of people they fought side by side with to save this world for the last decade.
    Even Baine only started to actually DO something when Sylvanas tried to corrupt one single human...burning an entire nation his people were closely allied with for millenia was obviously not that big of a deal....but one single human? No, that's where he draws the line.
    The Horde commited genocide there. And every single member of the Horde who did not go into rebellion right there on the spot is guilty. Which is ALL OF THEM. All of them are baby-killers. It's as simple as that. There is no way to redeem that. That's what the Horde banner now stands for: For burning children. The fans did not ask for this. I - as a 99% Alliance player - certainly did not ask for this. It is absolutely clear that Blizzard will NEVER actually shame the Horde and its colors. They won't. And even if they did, ~80% of the playerbase (the Horde players) would be outraged and it would probably kill the franchise.

    This only leaves the conclusion that the most vicious crime ever commited by any faction in the history of this game will ultimately go unpunished. It will be thrown into a basket with the totally meaningless assault on Dazar'Alor.

    None of the "great enemies" we fought so far burned down a city full of civilians after they had surrendered. Yes, there were more vicious acts commited in the timeline before WoW, but not in the game itself. Teldrassil by FAR surpasses any evil ever commited in the WoW timeline.

    And it will be completely ignored in the end.

    Hell, right now it even looks more like after Azshara is defeated Tyrande will show up and blow the "peace process" to oblivion, thereby making the Night Elves look like the "bad guys" in this.

    Blizzard wrote themselves into this corner and i cannot see any way for them out of it without damaging the entire foundation this franchise is built on.
    Last edited by Nathasil; 2019-05-04 at 03:36 AM.

  15. #35
    At this point I think they want to alienate Horde players on purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    when i learned anythin from mmo-c then it is that shit is only bad when the horde does it
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Baine is like the most unlikeable character you are supposed to like.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    Basically agree with what you said, just one small addition to option 2:
    The Horde marched on Teldrassil. Not Sylvanas. The Horde. The ENTIRE Horde. And while many of them might not have been particular happy about it, there was no real uproar about burning children and holy places of people they fought side by side with to save this world for the last decade.
    Even Baine only started to actually DO something when Sylvanas tried to corrupt one single human...burning an entire nation his people were closely allied with for millenia was obviously not that big of a deal....but one single human? No, that's where he draws the line.
    The Horde commited genocide there. And every single member of the Horde who did not go into rebellion right there on the spot is guilty. Which is ALL OF THEM.
    Have you forgotten the frantic reframing of Garrosh to be the busiest orc in the world? If you believe certain people, he acted completely alone, and therefore the Horde is held blameless, suffering only empty threats after SoO.

    All of them are baby-killers. It's as simple as that. There is no way to redeem that. That's what the Horde banner now stands for: For burning children.
    Oh but you see, just like the Horde that gleefully paved roads with bones including children's, it will all be forgiven by them teaming up in the face of $CurrentWorldEndingThreat, just like Mount Hyjal. Even though this time, there's no excuse of demon blood, somehow it WILL be excused.

    The fans did not ask for this. I - as a 99% Alliance player - certainly did not ask for this. It is absolutely clear that Blizzard will NEVER actually shame the Horde and its colors. They won't. And even if they did, ~80% of the playerbase (the Horde players) would be outraged and it would probably kill the franchise.

    This only leaves the conclusion that the most vicious crime ever commited by any faction in the history of this game will ultimately go unpunished. It will be thrown into a basket with the totally meaningless assault on Dazar'Alor.
    Haven't you seen the pattern? The Horde routinely commits atrocities, the Alliance slaps their wrists. Should the Alliance act even slightly gray, it's hyped up as equally bad or worse, used to justify the Horde's atrocities after the fact. This isn't about fictional partisanship, this is simply stepping back and observing the patterns in the writing.

    [quoute]None of the "great enemies" we fought so far burned down a city full of civilians after they had surrendered. Yes, there were more vicious acts commited in the timeline before WoW, but not in the game itself. Teldrassil by FAR surpasses any evil ever commited in the WoW timeline.

    And it will be completely ignored in the end.[/quote]All according to the pattern since WC3.

    Hell, right now it even looks more like after Azshara is defeated Tyrande will show up and blow the "peace process" to oblivion, thereby making the Night Elves look like the "bad guys" in this.
    Of course, they've made it very clear that whoever wants peace is Correct, since they apparently think their players are fucking morons that need to be told war is bad. Just look at Danuser Cringecaller sneering at Horde PCs if you'd like a hint of his contempt for the playerbase.

    Blizzard wrote themselves into this corner and i cannot see any way for them out of it without damaging the entire foundation this franchise is built on.
    The damage was done the minute their "Who burned the tree?" bullshit was exposed with the Warbringer cinematic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  17. #37
    Even Baine only started to actually DO something when Sylvanas tried to corrupt one single human...burning an entire nation his people were closely allied with for millenia was obviously not that big of a deal....but one single human? No, that's where he draws the line.
    This is true if you only read from what we see in game.
    Now, as you look like an Alliance fan, I guess you're not one of Jaina Accuser about her doing nothing against the legion and betraying the Alliance? Because you think she has done thing out of screen?

    Same here with Baine and a lot of character.

    The only reaction to teldrassil was those of character that were there. Saurfang, Nathanos, Sylvanas, Tyrande...

    Not Baine. Not even Lorthemar or other Horde leader. What could they do when they were not there and not even knowing what's happening.
    This would have been better if we saw their reaction, but it would be totally out of their character to not react.

    The thing is, Derek is Baine first action, not reaction.

    And do not think of Makgora, Baine already explained in the Shattering novel why he think Makgora would not solve thing. His father tryed and was cheated on. He thinked the same thing could happen again with Garrosh, not knowing Garrosh was not guilty. But with Sylvanas lacking any sense of honor and spitting on horde tradition, trying a Makgora against her would be suicide and very bad for his people.

    Oh, please, who are you trying to convince here with these mental gymnastics? Baine isn't just "insufficiently loyal". He's a literal traitor
    Sylvanas is the traitor

    - She betrayed the Horde once in legion when she abandonned the fight against the Alliance and Legion for her own agenda with Valkyr.
    - She commited war atrocity in Teldrassil in the name of the Horde
    - She killed her own forsaken people in before the storm
    - She killed Horde troops in Lordaeron
    - She sacrificed Lordaeron while the Horde could have win fighting normally
    - She sacrificed the player in Nazjatar in a bargain with Azsharra and Nzoth

    Baine, as Lorthemar explain represent the opposite to Sylvanas : Loyalty, Honor and true heroism. It's easy to understand why he should support Baine.

    Now I can see your point of view. I can even understand it.
    Buf if you still support Sylvanas, you are not a Horde player but a Scourge player. As such your point of view is different from horde player. I can understand that but do not see your point of view as the right one.
    I do agree the choice is poor for Scourge and Sylvanas supporter, but I you think about it, you didn't have any choice to start with. Blizzard added one with Saurfang choice but in the end the only choice that was planned was to support Saurfang and stay loyal to the Horde identity, not siding with the lich queen.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by nysisyn View Post
    -snip-
    Here we can see a "horde" player, one that believes that Horde should be an alliance bootlicker faction.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by nysisyn View Post
    Sylvanas is the traitor

    - She betrayed the Horde once in legion when she abandonned the fight against the Alliance and Legion for her own agenda with Valkyr.
    - She commited war atrocity in Teldrassil in the name of the Horde
    - She killed her own forsaken people in before the storm
    - She killed Horde troops in Lordaeron
    - She sacrificed Lordaeron while the Horde could have win fighting normally
    - She sacrificed the player in Nazjatar in a bargain with Azsharra and Nzoth
    - Yep valkyr in service of the horde, that's not really betrayal. That's gaining an awesome power. Is it better to let them to a known murderer and mind controller with its own agenda who don't give a shit at all about the livings? I root for the one in the horde.
    - Destroying an enemy city is not really an atrocity. It's just what you should expect from war. Orgrim did it, and he is praised by the horde enought to name its capital after him.
    - Orgrim killed a lot of orcs.
    - I've personnaly helped horde's troop taken in the plague so they don't die. Stocks of gaz masks were at disposal to do so. And there was allready a lot of dead horde on the battlefield to be raised.
    - She sacrified her own city in hope of destroying the alliance by sparing much of the horde soldiers. But if you have a better strategy against a potential vindicar and a Jaina magic battleship city destroyer, go on. Be like saurfang and die with honor for absolutely nothing.
    - I read that she make sure that the pj would survive. And it destroyed the alliance fleet. While the horde one had allready been destroyed by them prior. Making a new statue quo.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2019-05-04 at 08:17 AM.

  20. #40
    Here we can see a "horde" player, one that believes that Horde should be an alliance bootlicker faction.
    It's sad for you if you lick the boot of the Alliance. I never got this feeling being Horde.

    Fighting at their side against Azsharra and Nzoth is not licking their boot, it help the Horde
    Freeing Derek, in order to redeem the Horde is not licking their boot, it help the horde too

    The Alliance is our rival, not our worst ennemy.

    - Yep valkyr in service of the horde, that's not really betrayal. That's gaining an awesome power. Is it better to let them to a known murderer and mind controller with its own agenda who don't give a shit at all about the livings? I root for the one in the horde.
    I don't talk about Arthas here. I talk about legion event when she try to steal Eyir Valkyr. And you know Sylvanas do not that for the Horde.

    - Destroying an enemy city is not really an atrocity. It's just what you should expect from war. Orgrim did it, and he is praised by the horde enought to name its capital after him.
    Stormwind was sacked under Blackhand reign if I'm correct.
    Orgrim never destroyed a city full of civilians when he had another choice.

    - Orgrim killed a lot of orcs.
    Sure, Guldan betrayer. That cost him the victory at Lordaeron siege.
    Still, there is a difference in willing to leave your faction in a time of peace and when you are a civilian (Sylvanas)
    Than leaving your faction, in a time of war and when your are part of the army (Orgrim)

    - I've personnaly helped horde's troop taken in the plague so they don't die. Stocks of gaz masks were at disposal to do so. And there was allready a lot of dead horde on the battlefield to be raised.
    - Still, she killed horde troops while she could have done otherwise.
    - She sacrified her own city in hope of destroying the alliance by sparing much of the horde soldiers. But if you have a better strategy against a potential vindicar and a Jaina magic battleship city destroyer, go on. Be like saurfang and die with honor for absolutely nothing.
    The horde was winning the battle. The horde had always superior warfare and better quality troops that the little Alliance and we were at home.
    Save Sylvanas failed plan to kill Alliance leader, the Horde would have won this battle by standing united. But Sylvanas always play alone.

    - I read that she make sure that the pj would survive. And it destroyed the alliance fleet. While the horde one had allready been destroyed by them prior. Making a new statue quo.
    We don't know much detail from now, but it's easy to assume she do not care about you. And still; how freeing Nzoth will help the Horde? Unless it's plan is to stop the war she started and failed by creating a stronger menace?
    Last edited by nysisyn; 2019-05-04 at 08:28 AM.

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