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  1. #61
    One thing I'd like to add.

    So we rescue Baine. And then Baine, who was lawfully imprisoned and escaped with Alliance assistance escapes to . . . Thunder Bluff? I mean he is in Thunder Bluff for the heritage armor quests. So he is exposing all the civilians of Thunder Bluff to the possible collateral of the Horde seeking to apprehend him.

  2. #62
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I'd like to add.

    So we rescue Baine. And then Baine, who was lawfully imprisoned and escaped with Alliance assistance escapes to . . . Thunder Bluff? I mean he is in Thunder Bluff for the heritage armor quests. So he is exposing all the civilians of Thunder Bluff to the possible collateral of the Horde seeking to apprehend him.
    Its not like baine is the brightest cookie out there so its not really surprising. The only other place he could hide i can think of is anduins bedroom.

  3. #63
    I hate this fucking expansion. I really do.
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I'd like to add.

    So we rescue Baine. And then Baine, who was lawfully imprisoned and escaped with Alliance assistance escapes to . . . Thunder Bluff? I mean he is in Thunder Bluff for the heritage armor quests. So he is exposing all the civilians of Thunder Bluff to the possible collateral of the Horde seeking to apprehend him.
    No, the moment he escaped all his crimes were forgiven, because reasons. Or maybe the heritage quest involves an AU Baine sent to BfA from pits of hell to torment the players even more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  5. #65
    Sylvanas should have beheaded him on the spot. The same goes for Saurfang. It would add gravity instead it is idiotic story for absolute dumbfucks.
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  6. #66
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I'd like to add.

    So we rescue Baine. And then Baine, who was lawfully imprisoned and escaped with Alliance assistance escapes to . . . Thunder Bluff? I mean he is in Thunder Bluff for the heritage armor quests. So he is exposing all the civilians of Thunder Bluff to the possible collateral of the Horde seeking to apprehend him.
    blizz is not rly thinking about details, or logic things

    seems to be a pattern since wod.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    Sylvanas should have beheaded him on the spot. The same goes for Saurfang. It would add gravity instead it is idiotic story for absolute dumbfucks.
    Sylvanas didn't even finish Malfurion, what did you expect.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    lol no, the alliance hardly contributed. They just ran in to try and take credit, made some empty threats and ran.
    Vol'jin literally begs the Alliance for their support and admits he can't do it without them when the Alliance player meets him and calls him on his bluff. The Darkspear were all effectively suppressed by a single battalion of Kor'kron in a previous quest and required Thrall to bail them out and we see right after what happens when they try to attack the gates of Orgrimmar.

    No Alliance means no SoO.

    @Nymrohd

    You don't understand. Sylvanas is playing 7-dimensional underwater backgammon. Allowing her political opponent and his Alliance backers a stronghold in Thunder Bluff outside her jurisdiction during a total war is just part of her plan, just like allowing Derek to be freed and freeing Baine himself by killing her own troops for him.

    Just gas this faction already.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Sylvanas didn't even finish Malfurion, what did you expect.
    Nothing really but she should have!
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You could, I dunno, have read the entire post instead of cherry-picked snippets. Hell, even this post you decided to cherry-pick made an explicit remark to another paragraph of mine. Where I explained how prior to 8.2 Lor'themar was operating based on vastly different values to those of Baine's.
    You mean this one? (Lines separated for readability)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Since when does Lor'themar think that Baine out of all people represents all that is good in the Horde?

    Since when does Lor'themar think that imprisoning literal traitors is a dangerous precedent and that executing them is going to drive a dagger through the heart of the Horde when he's been dealing with dissent with a rather heavy hand himself?

    Since when does he even care about who represents the best in the Horde or whether there's going to be a dagger shoved in its heart when he has always been about Blood Elves and was willing to bail on the Horde the second it appeared to him the Blood Elves would be better off without it?
    ..Honestly, I ignored it because I figured it mostly debunked itself, but if you insist, here goes...

    1.) Since he decided Sylvanas was worth standing up to, obviously, at which point anyone doing the same is worth preserving.

    2.) Not every action in a given category is interchangeable, you know? Just because he's been doing it in other circumstances, doesn't mean he thinks it's the right course in all of them.

    3.) Since it became clear the blood elves are stuck with the Horde for the time being.

    ..And if you meant the one where you complain about Baine 'infecting' Lorthemar with Anduin's ideology.. Then you're essentially just getting mad with the idea of characters being opposed to Sylvanas, and / or being interested in peace, but other than that, yes. You're right. He is coming around to an ideology more on the 'Anduin' side of the spectrum.

    Or if you meant the one about 'dissent against the warchief', then I'd just like to correct that to 'dissent against Sylvanas', in which case you might actually be correct (ish). He isn't advocating for some kind of 'perpetually overthrow the Warchief' government.

    Oooor if you meant the very last paragraph, with the 'literal traitor' comment, then just skip down to the next bit.

    ..What was I cherry picking, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Breaking your nations laws (obedience to the Wachief), killing your compatriots and aiding the enemy is as clear-cut treason as you can get, so sorry, but you're grasping at straws here. And even Baine's own standards of treason support that. He argued Vol'jin was a traitor for Garrosh that Garrosh could have punished with death when Vol'jin's actions in question paled to what Baine did in BfA.
    Ah.. That's conveniently ignoring ideas like unjust laws, the reasons why you may have killed your compatriots, who the 'enemy' is, what your 'nation' is, the nature and requirements of loyalty, the precedence of your duties, who is accountable for what, who is responsible for what, and yet more besides. -You're basically advocating the idea that the Warchief's perspective is universal, which is.. Ridiculous.

    So I don't really want to walk you through these one by one, because you ought to be able to shake them out on your own, but let's go with a nice, easy example: A man of political power declares himself independent from his sovereign government. He will no longer obey orders from its rightful leaders. Further still, he signs away some of his nation's sovereignty, allowing a foreign power's armed forces to occupy what parts of it he influences. This places the citizens living there in danger, because this man is Henrik Kauffmann, a representative of the Danish government during World War 2, ignoring the orders of his country's legitimate government in order to prevent the Nazi occupation of its colony of Greenland.

    Is he a traitor? The answer is: It depends on who you ask. That's literally always going to be the answer, so your use of 'He's a traitor therefore Lorthemar shouldn't care about him' has absolutely no basis, or relevance, until you can present the reason why Lorthemar, in particular, would think he's a traitor. -Which, at the current time, it seems pretty clear he either (And this one seems most likely) doesn't think he's a traitor, or considers him the lesser evil.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by SirKickBan View Post
    snip
    Why is it bad if he is a traitor though? I mean, being a traitor and being a "good guy" is not mutually exclusive. It never was.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  12. #72
    Oh boy, I sure love how they turned the belfs into total scum. Cause there's nothing like teaming up with the enemy to kill your friends and family.

  13. #73
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Oh boy, I sure love how they turned the belfs into total scum. Cause there's nothing like teaming up with the enemy to kill your friends and family.
    This xpac is turning EVERYONE into total scum - except Manduin of course. Even Jaina, Golden's pet character, is unable to dodge the pools of !@$& at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Why is it bad if he is a traitor though? I mean, being a traitor and being a "good guy" is not mutually exclusive. It never was.
    It isn't bad, or good. The fellow I was replying to was trying to use his being a traitor as a reason no one would want to support him, and I was pointing out the problems in that.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Why is it bad if he is a traitor though? I mean, being a traitor and being a "good guy" is not mutually exclusive. It never was.
    Yeah, blindly following evil genocidal maniacs isn't a good position to be judging anyone from.

    The "just following orders" defense didn't save anyone at Nuremberg. As you said, being a traitor doesn't make you a bad guy. In this case, the bad guys are the ones "just following orders" to torch Night Elf city-trees, butcher farmers in Stormsong Valley and pin them to walls in front of their children, and murder Forsaken for wanting to be reunited with their families.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Yeah, blindly following evil genocidal maniacs isn't a good position to be judging anyone from.

    The "just following orders" defense didn't save anyone at Nuremberg. As you said, being a traitor doesn't make you a bad guy. In this case, the bad guys are the ones "just following orders" to torch Night Elf city-trees, butcher farmers in Stormsong Valley and pin them to walls in front of their children, and murder Forsaken for wanting to be reunited with their families.
    Last time I was checking WoW is a game where my character has killed over 300k living things (most humanoid) since Legion release and eating their souls afterwards so I don't think the Nürnberg trials mean anything to anyone in this context. Just wait to see all the "following orders" Horde members will be cheered up by Tyrande after the Sylvanas raid.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Sylvanas didn't even finish Malfurion, what did you expect.
    Or Genn in Stormheim right after he crushed her dream and limps away as she clutches her bow. What, she run out of arrows?

    For a supposedly pragmatic and ruthless person, Sylvanas sure is good at leaving her enemies alive for no adequately explained reason.

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