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  1. #421
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Pilots! What, are you going to say that F1 and Nascar pilots are as proficient with science as NASA engineers then?
    Yeah, piloting the mechs that they seemingly built.


    Which is irrelevant to the point...
    Isn't the point of all of this to discuss the differences within engineering?

    Because they likely haven't tried.
    I can agree with that.

    They do not. None exist.
    Then why does the engineering profession only cover a derivative of Gnome and Goblin technology? Where's the Nightborne, Black Iron, Naaru/Draenei/Lightforged, Arrakkoan, Legion, or Titan tech? Again, there's clearly different schools of engineering in WoW.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

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  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, piloting the mechs that they seemingly built.
    Evidence that they built it? Where is it?

    Isn't the point of all of this to discuss the differences within engineering?
    No. The point is about the claim about the difference of "knowledge" between 'tinker' and 'engineer'.

    Then why does the engineering profession only cover a derivative of Gnome and Goblin technology? Where's the Nightborne, Naaru/Draenei/Lightforged, Arrakkoan, Legion, or Titan tech? Again, there's clearly different schools of engineering in WoW.
    That's completely irrelevant because none of the "tinkers" in the game use "nightborne, naaru/draenei/lightforged, arakkoan, legion or titan tech".

    You talk a lot about Helix "understanding Titan technology", but all we ever heard of him doing something even remotely close was re-purposing some Titan tech. "Re-purposing" does not mean "completely understanding Titan tech". And all he did with it was creating the shielding that protects the Spoils of Pandaria in Siege of Orgrimmar.
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  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Evidence that they built it? Where is it?
    Due to his technological skill, it's clear that Sicco Thermaplugg built his mech. Can't speak for the other Mekgineers because there is zero lore about them.

    No. The point is about the claim about the difference of "knowledge" between 'tinker' and 'engineer'.
    There is an implied difference due to the hero unit from WC3 and HotS and the flood of prominent characters in WoW now piloting mechs. There won't be a clear cut difference until Blizzard makes a Tinker class.

    That's completely irrelevant because none of the "tinkers" in the game use "nightborne, naaru/draenei/lightforged, arakkoan, legion or titan tech".
    That wasn't my point. My point is that there's clearly different schools of engineering just like there are different schools of magic. Also Blizzard could make a Tinker class that utilizes multiple types of engineering technology and that would be the defining difference of the class from the profession. It wouldn't resemble the hero units, but it is definitely possible.

    You talk a lot about Helix "understanding Titan technology", but all we ever heard of him doing something even remotely close was re-purposing some Titan tech. "Re-purposing" does not mean "completely understanding Titan tech". And all he did with it was creating the shielding that protects the Spoils of Pandaria in Siege of Orgrimmar.
    You would have to understand it on some level to be able to repurpose it correct? Also as far as I know, he's the only Azerothian that has ever done it.
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  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Due to his technological skill, it's clear that Sicco Thermaplugg built his mech. Can't speak for the other Mekgineers because there is zero lore about them.
    "There's zero lore about them" didn't seem to stop you from claiming the pilots in the gnomish race built their own mechs.

    There is an implied difference
    There is no "implying" anything. You're just making stuff up. We have characters titled "tinkers" and characters titled "engineers" in the game, and both are shown to do the exact same thing, at the same level of proficiency, in the game.

    That wasn't my point. My point is that there's clearly different schools of engineering just like there are different schools of magic. Also Blizzard could make a Tinker class that utilizes multiple types of engineering technology and that would be the defining difference of the class from the profession. It wouldn't resemble the hero units, but it is definitely possible.
    And I'm showing to you that your point is irrelevant because it doesn't pertain to the discussion about the non-existent difference in knowledge and skill between a "tinker" and an "engineer" in the lore. Could Blizzard add a distinction in the future? Yes, they can. But right now? There is no distinction.

    You would have to understand it on some level to be able to repurpose it correct? Also as far as I know, he's the only Azerothian that has ever done it.
    If you really want to go that far, then Brann Bronzebeard knows more about Titan technology than Helix, considering all the times he "hacked" Titan tech in the Halls of Origination, Halls of Stone, Ulduar. And those are the only examples where we have been present. Brann has been snooping around in Titan facilities for the longest time.
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  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "There's zero lore about them" didn't seem to stop you from claiming the pilots in the gnomish race built their own mechs.
    I was basing it largely on Thermaplugg.


    There is no "implying" anything. You're just making stuff up. We have characters titled "tinkers" and characters titled "engineers" in the game, and both are shown to do the exact same thing, at the same level of proficiency, in the game.
    It's implied because Gazlowe suddenly started piloting a mech after appearing as a Tinker in HotS. Mekkatorque followed suit in Legion with his own warframe. In BFA, Gallywix now has a mech, and Gazlowe's HotS tinker abilities have shown up in WoW within the Island Expeditions (which Gazlowe participates in).

    And I'm showing to you that your point is irrelevant because it doesn't pertain to the discussion about the non-existent difference in knowledge and skill between a "tinker" and an "engineer" in the lore. Could Blizzard add a distinction in the future? Yes, they can. But right now? There is no distinction.
    And I understand that point. MY point is that there's different schools of engineering just like there's different schools of magic, and a Tinker class COULD differentiate itself by being able to utilize the various types of engineering.


    If you really want to go that far, then Brann Bronzebeard knows more about Titan technology than Helix, considering all the times he "hacked" Titan tech in the Halls of Origination, Halls of Stone, Ulduar. And those are the only examples where we have been present. Brann has been snooping around in Titan facilities for the longest time.
    I don't think I'm going far at all. I'm simply saying that in order to be able to repurpose titan tech, you have to understand it on SOME level. I didn't say that Blackfuse is the only one that understands Titan Tech, I said he's the only one that has repurposed it. I don't see why you want to make this some sort of competition between two fictional characters....
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

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  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I was basing it largely on Thermaplugg.
    Which is the wrong way to go about assumptions.

    It's implied because Gazlowe suddenly started piloting a mech after appearing as a Tinker in HotS.
    There's no "implication". And Gazlowe was already riding a mech 5 years before HotS was released. He was riding a mech when you fight him in the goblin starter scenario.

    MY point is that there's different schools of engineering just like there's different schools of magic,
    Goblin and gnomish engineering. Period.

    and a Tinker class COULD differentiate itself by being able to utilize the various types of engineering.
    Like an engineer can already does? A tech doesn't have to resemble draenei/legion/arakkoa/what-have-you tech cosmetically to use the technology itself.

    Remember: the engineer already understands Titan technology because they can build Jeeves, a design plan you acquire by killing mecha-gnomes around Stormpeaks, meaning that, through examining those bots, the engineer learned how to create such a bot. On their own.

    I don't think I'm going far at all. I'm simply saying that in order to be able to repurpose titan tech, you have to understand it on SOME level.
    Yes, but the problem is that said "level" varies heavily, and a more accurate way to infer the level of knowledge Helix had would be by knowing what the "repurposed Titan tech"s original function was. Which we don't know. For all we know, Helix may have had no idea how that particular device worked other than "put energy here, it makes a shield".

    I didn't say that Blackfuse is the only one that understands Titan Tech, I said he's the only one that has repurposed it. I don't see why you want to make this some sort of competition between two fictional characters....
    I'm not. I'm just showing that Brann is also someone with intense knowledge about Titan tech, showing Helix is not the only one with such knowledge.
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  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is the wrong way to go about assumptions.
    He's the most prominent Mekgineer, and he has lore.

    There's no "implication". And Gazlowe was already riding a mech 5 years before HotS was released. He was riding a mech when you fight him in the goblin starter scenario.
    You mean Gallywix.

    Also Mekkatorque with a mech? Gazlowe's Tinker abilities imported from HotS?


    Goblin and gnomish engineering. Period.
    What do you mean?


    Like an engineer can already does? A tech doesn't have to resemble draenei/legion/arakkoa/what-have-you tech cosmetically to use the technology itself.

    Remember: the engineer already understands Titan technology because they can build Jeeves, a design plan you acquire by killing mecha-gnomes around Stormpeaks, meaning that, through examining those bots, the engineer learned how to create such a bot. On their own.
    Jeeves is built via a schematic. I'm talking about an Engineer that builds and utilizes various types of tech without the need for schematics.

    Yes, but the problem is that said "level" varies heavily, and a more accurate way to infer the level of knowledge Helix had would be by knowing what the "repurposed Titan tech"s original function was. Which we don't know. For all we know, Helix may have had no idea how that particular device worked other than "put energy here, it makes a shield".
    I really don't see how that's relevant to the point. Its almost like you're splitting hairs here. We both agree that it requires SOME knowledge to repurpose tech, so I don't see why you're trying to argue levels of understanding. That's besides the point, especially since there's no way to know for sure.

    I'm not. I'm just showing that Brann is also someone with intense knowledge about Titan tech, showing Helix is not the only one with such knowledge.
    And I agreed with you that Brann has intense knowledge about Titan Tech. However, Brann never repurposed it, which I'm sure you'll agree is a profound engineering feat.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    He's the most prominent Mekgineer, and he has lore.
    And none of that lore tells us anything about the other "mekgineers".

    You mean Gallywix.

    Also Mekkatorque with a mech? Gazlowe's Tinker abilities imported from HotS?
    Right. My mistake about Gallywix. Moving on to Mekkatorque, he's irrelevant. He's a notorious NPCs, so he's the exception to the rule, just like Jaina is the exception to the rule because her fighting while standing on a flying disc does not mean player mages should be allowed to do the same.

    As for Gazlowe, he's another exception to the rule. The reason I'm saying this is because of the hugely overwhelming majority of tinkers and engineers who do not fight on mechs.

    What do you mean?
    Those are the two "schools" of technology. Everything else is incorporated into them.

    Jeeves is built via a schematic. I'm talking about an Engineer that builds and utilizes various types of tech without the need for schematics.
    I'll explain to you why your reasoning doesn't work. Two reasons:
    • One, the schematic you loot is just a gameplay representation of the player engineering understanding the technology enough to build one. I find it highly unlikely a random mecha-gnome would be carrying around a schematic detailing how to build their own... written in a language the player engineer understands.
    • Two, even if a random mecha-gnome is carrying around a schematic detailing how to build a their own, written in a language the player engineer understands... by reading and studying those schematics, the player understands the technology and learns how to build a Titan device.

    I can read on a book that throwing a rock at a glass window will cause it to break... or I can learn by trial-and-error that throwing rocks at a glass window will cause it to break. Either way, both outcomes are the same: you learn that throwing rocks at glass windows cause it to break.

    I really don't see how that's relevant to the point. Its almost like you're splitting hairs here. We both agree that it requires SOME knowledge to repurpose tech, so I don't see why you're trying to argue levels of understanding. That's besides the point, especially since there's no way to know for sure.
    Because the level of knowledge of Titan technology directly impacts how much one can do with it.

    And I agreed with you that Brann has intense knowledge about Titan Tech. However, Brann never repurposed it, which I'm sure you'll agree is a profound engineering feat.
    Not really because we don't know how much the Titan tech in the Spoils of Pandaria fight was altered, if any.
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  9. #429
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Let’s cut the fat and get to the point;

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Right. My mistake about Gallywix. Moving on to Mekkatorque, he's irrelevant. He's a notorious NPCs, so he's the exception to the rule, just like Jaina is the exception to the rule because her fighting while standing on a flying disc does not mean player mages should be allowed to do the same.
    Except Gallywix gets a new mech in BFA, and that mech is a bipedal mech like Mekkatorque’s and it’s built in response to Mekkatorque’s mech, and Gelbin is currently a popsicle because of it. So you can’t say it’s “irrelevant” because the situation surrounding Mekkatorque’s mech is currently driving lore within the expansion.

    As for Gazlowe, he's another exception to the rule. The reason I'm saying this is because of the hugely overwhelming majority of tinkers and engineers who do not fight on mechs.
    And this is why I’m saying it’s implied. As you said, the overwhelming majority of Tinkers and Engineers don’t fight on mechs, but the Tinker out of WC3 DID fight on a mech. Gazlowe becomes a Tinker in HotS and also fought in a mech. Soon afterwards in WoW he gets his own mech, and both Gnome and Goblin racial leaders get their own mechs too. To top it off, Gazlowe’s HotS Tinker abilities are now in WoW and are well set up to be placed into a Tinker class if Blizzard so desires. In other words, we have a gun with bullets loaded. All we need now is for Blizzard to pull the trigger.

    However, I’m sure you’ll say all that is irrelevant.

    Not really because we don’t know how much the titan tech was altered if any.
    Seriously? The encounter calls it a Goblin-Titan device.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2019-05-16 at 12:00 PM.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's your problem. I require actual evidence and not hear-say, especially from someone I don't know about and is making some absurd claims that go against established evidence.


    False. Blizzard is not using the RPG books as a source of information for their game. You're making literally a baseless assumption that flies in the face of actual information from the developers when they stated the books as non-canon.


    The World of Warcraft game has no examples of tinkers being better than engineers or vice-versa. You're literally making shit up.

    No, they don't. Not only the rpg books do not make the distinction, but the RPG books are useless to determine lore. Either cite some official source or show me in-game examples of one 'type' being better than the other.

    Show me the evidence. Like I said, I don't accept hear-say from people that like to make nonsensical claims.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Which is meaningless because those examples don't show any difference between the two terms. For all we know those could just be synonyms, like "mage" and "wizard".


    I noticed the "player"s name is not being shown. I don't feel like jumping into island expeditions just to look for them again, but I'm pretty sure the person that made that video named his character "tinker", and player spawned constructs are given the "title" of "<player>'s construct". Do you have any screenshots of how they actually look in the game? Neither show as having any titles in WoWHead, and the site does show NPC titles:

    Keep in mind that WoWHead does not show titles such as "<player>'s minion/companion/guardian/etc" in their listing. And the idea that "tinker" is just the "player"s name is further reinforced if you rewind the video and look at the 3:45 mark, the Heal Bot is titled "Tinker's Guardian", and further rewinding the video shows the turret being called "Tinker's minion".

    Other than that, it doesn't really mean anything to disprove the idea that "tinker" and "engineer" are not synonyms.


    Irrelevant. First because Hearthstone is not canon, and second because what you wrote doesn't mean that.
    No problem for me. And not my problem.

    But they do use it. You should read it one day to know how many things got in.

    It does it does.

    But they do make distinction.

    Nonsensical claims? Well, your writing tells me you are super autistic.
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Let’s cut the fat and get to the point;
    I.E. "let's ignore what I cannot argue" a.k.a. "let's ignore the fact I even mentioned how Titan tech can only be tampered with by Helix in the first place."

    Except Gallywix gets a new mech in BFA, and that mech is a bipedal mech like Mekkatorque’s and it’s built in response to Mekkatorque’s mech,
    Gallywix's mech is commissioned. He does not build it.

    and Gelbin is currently a popsicle because of it. So you can’t say it’s “irrelevant” because the situation surrounding Mekkatorque’s mech is currently driving lore within the expansion.
    Yes, I can, because, again, he's a notorious NPC.

    And this is why I’m saying it’s implied.
    That doesn't "imply" anything.

    To top it off, Gazlowe’s HotS Tinker abilities are now in WoW and are well set up to be placed into a Tinker class if Blizzard so desires. In other words, we have a gun with bullets loaded. All we need now is for Blizzard to pull the trigger.
    Or add it to the engineer profession. After all, it can already do a lot of stuff like that, like dropping turrets and fighting in mechs.

    Seriously? The encounter calls it a Goblin-Titan device.
    Doesn't really mean much. For example: If you take a titan device that creates a shield, and build a goblin machine around it to feed said device with energy and control the flow of energy into said device, the Titan device is completely unaltered, but can still be called a "goblin-Titan device".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetus Rex View Post
    But they do use it. You should read it one day to know how many things got in.
    You're making a claim with absolutely no evidence behind it and flies in the face of developer words.

    It does it does.
    No.

    But they do make distinction.
    They don't.

    Nonsensical claims? Well, your writing tells me you are super autistic.
    Welcome to my ignore list.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-05-16 at 02:17 PM.
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  12. #432
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I.E. "let's ignore what I cannot argue" a.k.a. "let's ignore the fact I even mentioned how Titan tech can only be tampered with by Helix in the first place."
    More like I don't feel like getting into a circular argument with you about irrelevant things (i.e. whether Mekginneers build their own mechs. WTF cares?).

    Gallywix's mech is commissioned. He does not build it.
    Why does he commission it?

    Yes, I can, because, again, he's a notorious NPC.
    So you're saying that classes don't emerge from notorious NPCs?

    That doesn't "imply" anything.
    I've already explained how it does.

    Or add
    it to the engineer profession. After all, it can already do a lot of stuff like that, like dropping turrets and fighting in mechs.
    Yeah, it can't do anything like that. Flame Turrets is nothing like Rock-it turrets, and Engineers can't fight in mechs in BFA. Further, if Blizzard's goal was to add these abilities to the profession, they would have done so by now. These abilities have been around since 2014.

    Doesn't really mean much. For example: If you take a titan device that creates a shield, and build a goblin machine around it to feed said device with energy and control the flow of energy into said device, the Titan device is completely unaltered, but can still be called a "goblin-Titan device".
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the fact that a goblin is the only Azerothian who has ever re-purposed titan tech is a huge achievement that could potentially lead to some great lore if Blizzard chooses to utilize it.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2019-05-16 at 02:41 PM.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the fact that a goblin is the only Azerothian who has ever re-purposed titan tech is a huge achievement that could potentially lead to some great lore if Blizzard chooses to utilize it.
    Replay the Elegon fight. The Mogu were repurposing Titan Tech way before any goblins

  14. #434
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    Replay the Elegon fight. The Mogu were repurposing Titan Tech way before any goblins
    Good point. I completely forgot about the Mogu.

    That is yet another branch of WoW technology.
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  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    More like I don't feel like getting into a circular argument with you about irrelevant things (i.e. whether Mekginneers build their own mechs. WTF cares?).
    I thought using Titan technology was an important point of yours? Especially when you claim there's difference between the "tinker" and "engineer" currently in the game?

    So you're saying that classes don't emerge from notorious NPCs?
    I believe classes emerge from RPG concepts first, and then tied to NPCs later.

    I've already explained how it does.
    Yes, but your explanation doesn't work. Notorious NPCs getting something players cannot is not a "prelude to new class".

    Yeah, it can't do anything like that. Flame Turrets is nothing like Rock-it turrets, and Engineers can't fight in mechs in BFA. Further, if Blizzard's goal was to add these abilities to the profession, they would have done so by now. These abilities have been around since 2014.
    Engineering can. They can drop flame turrets, machine gun turrets, and you can use it to fight in a mech. The concepts are already there.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the fact that a goblin is the only Azerothian who has ever re-purposed titan tech is a huge achievement that could potentially lead to some great lore if Blizzard chooses to utilize it.
    False. Many, many, many engineers have done the same. And long before Helix, mind you.
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  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I thought using Titan technology was an important point of yours? Especially when you claim there's difference between the "tinker" and "engineer" currently in the game?
    Only in the context of a possible Old Gods expansion.

    I believe classes emerge from RPG concepts first, and then tied to NPCs later.
    And the RPG concept emerged back in WC3.

    Yes, but your explanation doesn't work. Notorious NPCs getting something players cannot is not a "prelude to new class".
    Like Illidan eventually leading to Demon Hunters?

    Engineering can. They can drop flame turrets, machine gun turrets, and you can use it to fight in a mech. The concepts are already there.
    But they can't drop Rock-it turrets. Additionally you can't fight in a mech in BFA.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

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  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Only in the context of a possible Old Gods expansion.
    And it's been shown that, even in that context, that "distinction" does not exist.

    And the RPG concept emerged back in WC3.
    The paladin concept emerged in WC3 as well? And the priest concept? The mage concept? The rogue concept? Please, Teriz. That's a very dishonest thing to say. A medieval fantasy tech class concept is full of extravagant machines.

    Like Illidan eventually leading to Demon Hunters?
    At best, that'd be the exception, not the rule.

    But they can't drop Rock-it turrets. Additionally you can't fight in a mech in BFA.
    Names are meaningless. The fact is that engineering already have the concept within it, which is a heavy indicator that similar abilities are highly likely to be added to them instead of given to a class.
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  18. #438
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And it's been shown that, even in that context, that "distinction" does not exist.
    Then why can't I fight in a mech in the current expansion?


    The paladin concept emerged in WC3 as well? And the priest concept? The mage concept? The rogue concept? Please, Teriz. That's a very dishonest thing to say. A medieval fantasy tech class concept is full of extravagant machines.
    Yeah, and there were NPCs that reinforced those concepts, just like the Tinker.

    At best, that'd be the exception, not the rule.
    In other words it's an example that disproves your point?

    Names are meaningless. The fact is that engineering already have the concept within it, which is a heavy indicator that similar abilities are highly likely to be added to them instead of given to a class.
    You mean like how Alchemy and Cooking has the concept of creating Elixirs and Brews that heal, enhance, fortify, etc. yet Monks do the exact same thing?

    It isn't just the name. It's also the function and the purpose. Rock-it turrets have a 10 second recharge time, scale with level, and has 2 charges. That's never going to end up in the engineering profession and you know it.
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  19. #439
    @Teriz, you have mentioned Rock-It Turrets several times now, so I want to make sure I understand correctly.

    1) This is an ability you have made up for your concept as opposed to some ability/mechanic already in game.

    2). Rock-It. Rock-It? Does It launch Rocks? Do you mean Rocket by chance?

    Honestly, I think a Tinker class could be cool, but you really don't do the class any favors with the fanaticism.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    @Teriz, you have mentioned Rock-It Turrets several times now, so I want to make sure I understand correctly.

    1) This is an ability you have made up for your concept as opposed to some ability/mechanic already in game.

    2). Rock-It. Rock-It? Does It launch Rocks? Do you mean Rocket by chance?

    Honestly, I think a Tinker class could be cool, but you really don't do the class any favors with the fanaticism.
    It's an ability from Heroes of the Storm. The Goblin hero, Gazlowe, has an ability to drop Rock-it Turrets, and that's what he's taking inspiration from.

    https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/gazlowe/

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