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  1. #441
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    @Teriz, you have mentioned Rock-It Turrets several times now, so I want to make sure I understand correctly.

    1) This is an ability you have made up for your concept as opposed to some ability/mechanic already in game.

    2). Rock-It. Rock-It? Does It launch Rocks? Do you mean Rocket by chance?

    Honestly, I think a Tinker class could be cool, but you really don't do the class any favors with the fanaticism.
    It's a Tinker ability from HotS and it is now in WoW. I didn't make it up.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then why can't I fight in a mech in the current expansion?
    Gameplay balance.

    Yeah, and there were NPCs that reinforced those concepts, just like the Tinker.
    Irrelevant. "Reinforcing" a concept doesn't meant those concepts emerged from those npcs, like you originally claimed.

    In other words it's an example that disproves your point?
    No. It's an example that is the exception. Because the "demon hunter" is the one and only concept unique to Warcraft. All the rest (priest, paladin, rogue, mage, death knight, monk, etc) are common RPG tropes.

    You mean like how Alchemy and Cooking has the concept of creating Elixirs and Brews that heal, enhance, fortify, etc. yet Monks do the exact same thing?
    The key difference is that the monks do not focus on those. Remove those aspects and the monk is still a monk.

    It isn't just the name. It's also the function and the purpose. Rock-it turrets have a 10 second recharge time, scale with level, and has 2 charges. That's never going to end up in the engineering profession and you know it.
    You're arguing game balance. That doesn't work for lore. NPCs have abilities with different rules compared to player or profession abilities.

    Think about it: the only thing keeping an engineer from improving something he learned back when he was adventuring in Northrend and making it more powerful today... is game balance.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-05-16 at 05:30 PM.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  3. #443
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Gameplay balance.
    So since the Engineering profession can't provide the necessary tools to fulfill the fantasy represented by multiple Goblins and Gnomes, there should be a class.

    Irrelevant. "Reinforcing" a concept doesn't meant those concepts emerged from those npcs, like you originally claimed.
    You have it backwards. I'm saying the concept came first (WC3) and Blizzard reinforced that concept through NPCs and major lore characters.

    No. It's an example that is the exception. Because the "demon hunter" is the one and only concept unique to Warcraft. All the rest (priest, paladin, rogue, mage, death knight, monk, etc) are common RPG tropes.
    I'm pretty sure a Goblin and a Gnome riding around in a transforming robot suit is also unique to Warcraft.

    The key difference is that the monks do not focus on those. Remove those aspects and the monk is still a monk.
    You're moving goalposts. First you said because the profession had the concept it was a heavy indicator that similar concepts are highly likely to be added to the profession instead of given to a class period. Now you're saying that the class has to FOCUS on the concept, which makes little sense.

    You're arguing game balance. That doesn't work for lore. NPCs have abilities with different rules compared to player abilities.
    No, I'm arguing what the ability does and what makes an ability an ability. If it loses charges, cooldown time, etc. then it ceases to be that ability.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's an ability from Heroes of the Storm. The Goblin hero, Gazlowe, has an ability to drop Rock-it Turrets, and that's what he's taking inspiration from.

    https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/gazlowe/
    Yep, it’s Blizz being pun-ny. What ever gets hit by the rockets it’s gonna get ROCKED.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You have it backwards. I'm saying the concept came first (WC3) and Blizzard reinforced that concept through NPCs and major lore characters.
    And I'm saying you have it wrong. The concepts came from the RPG tropes. The only original thing you can claim came from WC3 was the demon hunter concept.

    I'm pretty sure a Goblin and a Gnome riding around in a transforming robot suit is also unique to Warcraft.
    Not really. Again, wondrous gadgets and robots are part of the "fantasy trope" of the engineer.

    You're moving goalposts. First you said because the profession had the concept it was a heavy indicator that similar concepts are highly likely to be added to the profession instead of given to a class period. Now you're saying that the class has to FOCUS on the concept, which makes little sense.
    I haven't said that. I simply said that it's more likely that abilities such as those would go to the profession that already has similar stuff in it that it is to go to a class.

    But even assuming what the monk is doing in alchemy, none of what the monk does (or used to do) with elixirs and tea could be found in the alchemy repertoire, like increasing stagger or reducing the cost of spells to zero. But in the engineering we do find turrets, rockets and mechs.

    No, I'm arguing what the ability does and what makes an ability an ability. If it loses charges, cooldown time, etc. then it ceases to be that ability.
    So you're saying that the "rock-it turret" in WoW is not the same as the ability of the same name in HotS? Since it loses 5 seconds of cooldown, lasts only half as long, is instant cast as opposed to having a cast time, and have half the GCD as the HotS version.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  6. #446
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And I'm saying you have it wrong. The concepts came from the RPG tropes. The only original thing you can claim came from WC3 was the demon hunter concept.
    And the Goblin Tinker concept.


    Not really. Again, wondrous gadgets and robots are part of the "fantasy trope" of the engineer.
    I'm not aware of any medieval fantasy games that showcase a Goblin or a Gnome piloting an anime-styled mech that fires lasers and bombs. Perhaps you can point me to some?


    I haven't said that. I simply said that it's more likely that abilities such as those would go to the profession that already has similar stuff in it that it is to go to a class.
    But that didn't happen with the Monk class, and you can add Rogues to that as well, since they use vials and can even give those vials to other players.

    But even assuming what the monk is doing in alchemy, none of what the monk does (or used to do) with elixirs and tea could be found in the alchemy repertoire, like increasing stagger or reducing the cost of spells to zero. But in the engineering we do find turrets, rockets and mechs.
    So it's no longer about the concept but the ability doing the exact same thing as the item? Interesting.... Well, Flame Turrets don't do exactly the same thing Rock-it turret does. The mech mounts definitely aren't doing what Gazlowe or Gelbin's mech does, etc.

    So you're saying that the "rock-it turret" in WoW is not the same as the ability of the same name in HotS? Since it loses 5 seconds of cooldown, lasts only half as long, is instant cast as opposed to having a cast time, and have half the GCD as the HotS version.
    An ability transferring over from a MOBA to a MMO is going to undergo some changes. Going from an ability to a profession item (which has never happened btw) is something else entirely.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And the Goblin Tinker concept.
    Not really. "Mechs" and power suits for medieval tech heroes is not something Blizzard came up with.

    I'm not aware of any medieval fantasy games that showcase a Goblin or a Gnome piloting an anime-styled mech that fires lasers and bombs. Perhaps you can point me to some?
    Yeah, I've already said I'm not playing your dishonest games, Teriz. You pick up the most specific examples you can find of, and tell me to go find examples outside WoW. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend that Blizzard makes alterations to the concepts they take from RPG. For example, you're not going to find a "minotaur paladin that is buddy-buddy with orcs and fights against purple-skinned elves that live among the trees" anywhere outside of WoW. But the medieval tech hero using gadets and mechs/power suits is a RPG trope and not something exclusive to WoW.

    But that didn't happen with the Monk class, and you can add Rogues to that as well, since they use vials and can even give those vials to other players.
    So what? I said it's more likely, not that it has to go to professions.

    So it's no longer about the concept but the ability doing the exact same thing as the item? Interesting.... Well, Flame Turrets don't do exactly the same thing Rock-it turret does. The mech mounts definitely aren't doing what Gazlowe or Gelbin's mech does, etc.
    Gameplay restrictions, only. After all, our mech mounts definitely can do those things, but gameplay dictates we can't, just like the cannons from our BfA flying ship mounts can't damage anything despite actually being able to fire, and our dragon mounts being unable to breathe fire, despite them actually being able to.

    An ability transferring over from a MOBA to a MMO is going to undergo some changes. Going from an ability to a profession item (which has never happened btw) is something else entirely.
    So... an ability can change damage, cooldown, cast time, duration, etc, and still be the same if it suits your agenda. But if it doesn't suit your agenda, changes in damage, cooldown, cast time, duration, etc are not the same anymore when it doesn't suit your agenda.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-05-16 at 10:06 PM.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  8. #448
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not really. "Mechs" and power suits for medieval tech heroes is not something Blizzard came up with.
    Goblin built and piloted mech and power suits that produce factories and robots in medieval fantasy game? Where?

    Yeah, I've already said I'm not playing your dishonest games, Teriz.

    Yeah... thought so.

    So what? I said it's more likely, not that it has to go to professions.
    Thus it has a chance to go to a class instead right?


    Gameplay restrictions, only. After all, our mech mounts definitely can do those things, but gameplay dictates we can't, just like the cannons from our BfA flying ship mounts can't damage anything despite actually being able to fire, and our dragon mounts being unable to breathe fire, despite them actually being able to.
    Yeah because they're mounts. We're not talking about mounts, we're talking about the combat forms that Gazlowe and/or Gelbin are using.

    So... an ability can change damage, cooldown, cast time, duration, etc, and still be the same if it suits your agenda. But if it doesn't suit your agenda, changes in damage, cooldown, cast time, duration, etc are not the same anymore when it doesn't suit your agenda.
    Can you name a single example of an ability that was pared down to a profession item? I mean, we have several examples of MOBA or RTS abilities being converted into WoW abilities. I'd like for you to show an example of a WoW ability being converted into a profession item.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah... thought so.
    Because, as demonstrated by your first sentence in your post, you dishonestly make the most absurdly precise examples. Goblins being ingenious tinkers (as in, like to tinker) is a common RPG trope and fantasy engineers being able to create mechs and other wondrous machines is also a RPG trope.

    Thus it has a chance to go to a class instead right?
    I never denied that.

    Yeah because they're mounts. We're not talking about mounts, we're talking about the combat forms that Gazlowe and/or Gelbin are using.
    So you're using gameplay to argue lore. Doesn't work that way.

    Can you name a single example of an ability that was pared down to a profession item?
    Why should I? You already made crystal-clear that changes in the ability like cooldown, name, damage type, duration, etc, may or may not count as "changing the ability altogether" depending if it suits you or not:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No, I'm arguing what the ability does and what makes an ability an ability. If it loses charges, cooldown time, etc. then it ceases to be that ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An ability transferring over from a MOBA to a MMO is going to undergo some changes. Going from an ability to a profession item (which has never happened btw) is something else entirely.
    Remember that "becoming a profession item" is still counts as "transferring from a MOBA to MMO".
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  10. #450
    Titan Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because, as demonstrated by your first sentence in your post, you dishonestly make the most absurdly precise examples. Goblins being ingenious tinkers (as in, like to tinker) is a common RPG trope and fantasy engineers being able to create mechs and other wondrous machines is also a RPG trope.
    So then are Demon Hunters just the common trope of Monster Hunter?

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...Main.TheHunter


    I never denied that.
    You did at first

    So you're using gameplay to argue lore. Doesn't work that way.
    Except vanity mounts like the mech mounts aren't lore. The only one that might be is the Sky Golem, and that one has no wespons. The rest are just drops from bosses.

    Why should I? You already made crystal-clear that changes in the ability like cooldown, name, damage type, duration, etc, may or may not count as "changing the ability altogether" depending if it suits you or not:
    Because you said that Blizzard has a high chance of placing HotS abilities into the engineering profession. I'd like to see examples of that ever taking place. A lot of HotS abilities have entered WoW and I dont recall any becoming profession items.

    Remember that "becoming a profession item" is still counts as "transferring from a MOBA to MMO".
    So once again, when has a HotS ability become a profession item in WoW?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2019-05-17 at 02:21 AM.
    My comic series inspired by WoW and MMOs:

    Tinker Class Concept 2018 Dragonsworn Class Concept 2019

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So then are Demon Hunters just the common trope of Monster Hunter?

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...Main.TheHunter
    Dunno. Kind of fits, though a more "specialized" kind of monster hunter. But if it fits... it kind of undermines your own arguments, so I don't know why you bothered to show this.

    You did at first
    You mean when I said this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Or add it to the engineer profession.
    Look how I started the sentence with the word "or", which means I was offering another possibility, and not denying the idea that a chance existed it could go to a class.

    Except vanity mounts like the mech mounts aren't lore. The only one that might be is the Sky Golem, and that one has no wespons. The rest are just drops from bosses.
    Look at the mount's arms, dude. They're shown to have the exact same arm-mounted weapons as Gallywix' shredder: retractable shredder blades.

    Because you said that Blizzard has a high chance of placing HotS abilities into the engineering profession. I'd like to see examples of that ever taking place. A lot of HotS abilities have entered WoW and I dont recall any becoming profession items.
    Again, it's meaningless to give you examples because, while you claim to understand that changes need to be made, when shown with evidence against your claim, you take every single deviation and claim those examples aren't valid because of those deviations.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I.E. "let's ignore what I cannot argue" a.k.a. "let's ignore the fact I even mentioned how Titan tech can only be tampered with by Helix in the first place."


    Gallywix's mech is commissioned. He does not build it.


    Yes, I can, because, again, he's a notorious NPC.


    That doesn't "imply" anything.


    Or add it to the engineer profession. After all, it can already do a lot of stuff like that, like dropping turrets and fighting in mechs.


    Doesn't really mean much. For example: If you take a titan device that creates a shield, and build a goblin machine around it to feed said device with energy and control the flow of energy into said device, the Titan device is completely unaltered, but can still be called a "goblin-Titan device".

    - - - Updated - - -


    You're making a claim with absolutely no evidence behind it and flies in the face of developer words.


    No.


    They don't.


    Welcome to my ignore list.
    There is distinction and I don't need developer words for it.
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