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  1. #21
    maybe it shoudnt be , raids use to be something the average guild never did

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    maybe it shoudnt be , raids use to be something the average guild never did
    Raids used to be something "average mythic guilds" always did.

  3. #23
    As of now, no chance in hell. My guild had an almost half melee roster on Jaina. They can trim some of that for sure (yours truly very much included), but there's absolutely no way we can manage better than 1/3rd of the DPS being melee which disqualifies you right out on Uu'nat and makes Cabal extremely hard as well.

  4. #24
    Not without major nerfs, no. Current CoS is for W1st class stackers only.

  5. #25
    It's nice seeing bosses really hard again, I don't mind it getting nerfed eventually which will no doubt happen. Hopefully this will be the future of how raids turn out. I've always enjoyed TBC and how raids weren't always downed by the masses. It made joining a guild and maintaining a guild far more meaningful than it does now.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylamoo View Post
    It's nice seeing bosses really hard again, I don't mind it getting nerfed eventually which will no doubt happen. Hopefully this will be the future of how raids turn out. I've always enjoyed TBC and how raids weren't always downed by the masses. It made joining a guild and maintaining a guild far more meaningful than it does now.
    You have to be quite delusional to use the words 'nice seeing bosses really hard again' and referring to TBC as a time where it was better.
    Raid encounters in the Burning Crusade where infinitely easier than they are now, the main difference was that gearing characters was a lot harder as there was less gear that you could get, there was no catch-up gear and as there were attunements you couldn't boost characters either. Also the player base was not nearly as sophisticated as now.

    As it stands now, current Mythic raids might as well get a line in the patch notes that reads:
    "Current Mythic encounters are internally tested to what our best players could achieve and then we added a flat 50% boost to the difficulty (health, damage, etc) without having checked what this will do to the encounter. During our open beta release on live servers we will have top players test this difficulty. Since we don't know if the encounters can be beaten we will keep an eye on their progress and if the top guilds give up we will nerf certain mechanics. Then when most of the known top guilds have cleared the entire raid and we see no more guilds defeating our encounters we will slowly reduce the difficulty to the level our own team could defeat."

    Oh and also to answer the original question: The current iteration is not killable by the average mythic guild before major nerfs or a new tier of gear.
    Last edited by Sageless; 2019-05-04 at 02:06 AM.

  7. #27
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    No, it's not.

    Why? I'd assume the post in general is in reference to guilds who are working on, are who have completed Jaina. I think any guild that's close to killing Jaina, or has killed Jaina will or has the potential to kill Cabal. There aren't a lot, but there are guilds who have killed the boss without extreme class stacking. The real reason why is because of two major reasons. For one, Blizzard stating that the first boss is about as hard as boss in the middle of BoD and that the last boss would be similar to Jaina completely misses the mark. To start, Cabal is harder than anything in BoD save Jaina, and Un'naat is twice as hard as Jaina was.

    The biggest reason why the raid isn't accessible to the majority of Mythic raiding guilds is that unlike most raids in WoW's history (save ToV), there's absolutely no way you can get better each consecutive week from a gearing standpoint. Mythic Jaina for most guilds would probably be pretty impossible for "most" guilds if everyone was forced to do the boss at 405-407 iLvL (like the first guilds did) but luckily for us, we don't have to do the boss at those iLvLs. While Jaina is still pretty difficult, there have been a few changes to the boss, and most guilds now are getting kills with an average iLvL of 10-12 higher than the first guilds, this of course makes a huge difference.

    The top guilds might have a small edge on iLvL, but it's not by a whole lot. Essentially what Blizzard is asking you to do, is to do the boss with the same iLvL as the best guilds in the world, which simply isn't going to happen. First off they raid more than the 'average mythic' guilds does in nearly 2 months, in a single week. Secondly, while your guild might have similar iLvL, most guilds aren't able to field 'ideal' raid compositions, by omitting nearly every melee from their roster and stacking certain DPS above all others.

    So yeah, not going to happen. I'm not discounting the best guilds, because clearly skill is certainly involved as well, but this raid simply (as it stands) isn't designed for anybody but guilds like that. Asking guilds to do encounters with the same iLvL as the best guilds is a bit cruel (but at least you can say, get good), but asking guilds to do that in addition to bringing a similar composition is even retarded.

    The game should never be designed like this IMO. ToV was almost like this as well, but at least you still had somewhat meaningful progression with artifact traits 34-52, and the potential to RnG into better legendary items (as shitty as both of those systems were). CoS has your iLvL locked, with the only way of possibly competing is to stack certain classes, play more, and get better.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    You have to be quite delusional to use the words 'nice seeing bosses really hard again' and referring to TBC as a time where it was better.
    Raid encounters in the Burning Crusade where infinitely easier than they are now, the main difference was that gearing characters was a lot harder as there was less gear that you could get, there was no catch-up gear and as there were attunements you couldn't boost characters either. Also the player base was not nearly as sophisticated as now.
    .
    To be fair, when Serpentshrine Cavern and the Eye released they were a bugged mostly unkillable mess that required tons of live beta testing and hotfixes to become a doable raid.

    Gruul and Magtheridon took more than a week/weeks to be killed because they were so poorly tuned they were basically impossible until hotfixed.

    Kael'thas had a hilarious oversight where he would build aggro on healers through the first three phases then run around one shotting all the healers when phase 4 started since he was taunt immune. Guilds tried to kill him by soulstoning all the healers but never got a kill until it was fixed (which took five months!)

    The original overtuned mess that was Lady Vashj was never killed legitimately, once they removed her mind control Method finally killed it after a month and a half dying to the broken version.

    High Astromancer Solarian was reworked four separate times, the first two incarnations being an impossibly overtuned mess. She went from 5 million HP to 2.7m.

    Oh and can't forget the trash clears that took 30 minutes and respawned in an hour.

    So I would argue that the initial raiding experience in Burning Crusade was actually similar to Crucible of Storms: An overtuned mess.

    Uu'nat taking multiple hotfix nerfs to even approach being doable is pretty reminiscent of the Burning Crusade raid experience, except now they hotfix it in a week instead of months.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-05-04 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #29
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    Seeing people with rose-tinted glasses about the glory days in TBC/Vanilla when bosses lasted awhile always makes me laugh.

    People approach the game different now than they did in those eras, and encounters are quickly fixed if they are bug filled messes. Blizzard tested so much shit internally over a decade ago, which led to incredibly over tuned messes, which were often actually impossible. Until they heavily fixed TK, only one boss was actually possible in there, as bugs prevented you from doing any of the other encounters. When people finally got to pull Kaelt'Thas, he was also bug ridden as well. The same thing applies to the majority of bosses in SSC, and Magtheridon as well. Gruul's Lair was over tuned, but at least it was doable.

    Bugs and completely over tuned encounters aren't fun.

  10. #30
    What's an average guild anyway? If we're counting every raiding guild then 20,000 guilds have killed heroic Champion of the Light as a guild. In which case the average guild has just cleared heroic Jaina and is fairly far away from a mythic Grong kill.

    There's 5800 guilds that have killed Mythic Grong as a guild (let's not count Champion of the Light).

    Is the average guild then world 2700? Then the average guild just killed Rastakhan and is starting Mekkatorque.

    There's 3770 guilds that have killed Opulence, that's probably the first mythic boss that guilds actually get stuck on.

    Is the average guild then world 1885? Then the average guild just killed Mekkatorque and is starting Stormwall Blockade.

    Or is any guild that hasn't killed Jaina below average as someone said in this thread? If that's the case the average guild killed Jaina two weeks ago and is busy waiting for Crucible to become doable without absurd comps.

    Interesting number of definitions floating around and I doubt you can get many people to agree on one of them.


    Hey look at the most recent mythic Cabal kill: 8 priests, 3 warlocks, 1 melee (havoc)

  11. #31
    As it is right now? Not a chance.

    After the guaranteed nerfs in the coming weeks\months? Sure.

    No way this fight stays in this form for long (even after the 2 wave of hotfixes).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    Only if you have about 10-12 Aff locks lying around.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    Then you don't know what the word "average" means.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    You don't get to personally define what words mean. Guilds that have killed M Jaina are the top fraction of M raiders.

    @the OP, in their current form no. Currently its just a prestige raid for the few.

  15. #35
    The average mythic raider doesn't raid more than 3 days a week, 9 hours. The average mythic raider doesn't usually have the capability to class stack. The average mythic raider doesn't really have the tools to kill horridly overtuned bosses until they're nerfed because only higher end mythic raiding guilds have benches like that.

    It's not really about "Not everyone should be able to kill it" or "MUH PRESTIGE!" but I guess if you either don't give a fuck about raiding or play this game (most likely) or you just happen to be in a top 500 guild, I guess shouting nonsense like that makes sense to you.

    The average mythic raider is stuck at 8/9 BFD, and even above average ones are stuck there because it's a retarded fight.

    /tinfoil hat

    I think that M Jaina is overtuned so that it keeps those average mythic raiders subscribed, and I think that Crucible bosses are overtuned to keep the high end mythic raiding guilds that already killed Jaina subscribed.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    the main difference from CoS and other raids is that, top 5 guilds usually clear the raids in ~10 average ilvl lower gear, than the top 500 guilds. they can do that because theyre more skilled and got plenty of alts to class stack.
    in CoS there is no way for the top 500 guilds to get more ilvl, than pieces and method had when they killed uu'nat.
    so the top 500 guilds have two choices. they can start gearing up 15 locks/shams and wait for nerfs.
    or wait for nerfs and then wait even for more nerfs.

    instead of waiting for nerfs. i prefer to be able to "overgear" raids, to outweight the lack skill and perfect class setup.

    otherwise gear has become irrelevant, all that matters is, when do blizz press the big red nerf button.
    I see a lot of these "you can't outgear it" posts, but people seem to be forgetting this tier is going to be open for at least 6 more months along with the new raid that comes out in 8.2. Doesn't matter if the average mythic guild can't kill a hard fight on release, when they have months to obtain MORE GEAR and practice the fight.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    Yes you are wrong. With 8.2 raid gear you will kill it and get achieve.

    If you have nothing to do now, you should be in there right now. Your average mythic guild will; kill the first boss in a month so you should have a month to get your Strat ready for when you have appropriate gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Yes you are wrong. With 8.2 raid gear you will kill it and get achieve.

    If you have nothing to do now, you should be in there right now. Your average mythic guild will; kill the first boss in a month so you should have a month to get your Strat ready for when you have appropriate gear.
    I don't see a lot of people going back for a raid that drops 420's when the new raid drops 445's.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    I think that M Jaina is overtuned so that it keeps those average mythic raiders subscribed, and I think that Crucible bosses are overtuned to keep the high end mythic raiding guilds that already killed Jaina subscribed.
    I think people would have been happy just farming Jaina mounts for everyone for the next couple months. It's a dope mount. G'huun though? Yeah, people were really over that after a couple kills.

    No skips in BFA raids sucks (and will suck more for the rest of the xpac when you want to go back)

    Along with not making G'huun and Jaina drop higher ilvl, if you remember that poll I made on this board.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-04 at 07:48 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchPrime View Post
    It really isn't realistic to expect them to have internal team at the level of the best guilds out there, i'd expect the actual team to be at the level of world #50 guild or so.
    They actually discussed in an interview back after the M KJ fiasco, essentially blizz has racked up so many former top 100 raiders on the current internal test team, that their old standards of hardcore overtuning everything ran aground as their internal team's skill greatly improved.

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