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  1. #41
    In it's current state I think it is. But to me the issue of M CoS is that I feel burned out just thinking about it. My guild is halfway through M Jaina progression and I cannot see myself having enough mental energy to wipe hundreds of times to two more difficult bosses. I'm only in a top 800 guild, but even with a few months left until Eternal Palace, I really don't know if my guild will make it through M CoS in time unless it's significantly nerfed.

  2. #42
    Because this pve and everything is programmed sooner or later (and after some nerfs) a lot of guilds will kill it. it might take a lot of wipes for people to learn mechanics but in the end they will kill it because it is always the same

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    you forgot one very important point, on top of that 700+ wipes, they were using the most optimal setup and class stacking for easier pull.

    the average mythic guild cannot do that, so in short? nah average mythic guild wont kill this boss, if they dont nerf this boss hard, u probably going to see only 50 guild with the kill.

    i think i am being optimistic, maybe less than 50.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?

    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?
    I also think that it was mantioned in the past that players that get hired by Blizzard are asked to not compete anymore at the very top level due to the knowledge they gain. So i reckon players that actually are interested in getting the world firsts won't be interested to be in the internal test team anyway.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    The average mythic raider doesn't raid more than 3 days a week, 9 hours. The average mythic raider doesn't usually have the capability to class stack. The average mythic raider doesn't really have the tools to kill horridly overtuned bosses until they're nerfed because only higher end mythic raiding guilds have benches like that.

    It's not really about "Not everyone should be able to kill it" or "MUH PRESTIGE!" but I guess if you either don't give a fuck about raiding or play this game (most likely) or you just happen to be in a top 500 guild, I guess shouting nonsense like that makes sense to you.

    The average mythic raider is stuck at 8/9 BFD, and even above average ones are stuck there because it's a retarded fight.

    /tinfoil hat

    I think that M Jaina is overtuned so that it keeps those average mythic raiders subscribed, and I think that Crucible bosses are overtuned to keep the high end mythic raiding guilds that already killed Jaina subscribed.
    This reply made the most sense to me so far.

    I might not necessarily agree with the last conclusion, but I am left wondering indeed why they do design raid bosses in such a manner.

    I'm slightly torn between two opinions:
    1. It's good to have something to work towards in a game
    2. What is the point if there is going to be a content patch that makes this stuff obsolete in a few months?
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Then they either need to hire a new team, hire Method (or some other guild typically in WF contention). How the hell can you say you tested something when you didn’t actually test it?

    Hell what is the purpose of this internal raid team Ion talks about to begin with then?
    They test the encounters as thoroughly as you can with a "small" team internally and err on the side of caution to make sure it's not undertuned. It's better to make a boss unkillable and then nerf it on the day it's reached by top guilds than to undertune it and buff it once you notice guilds are killing it too easily, don't you think? Otherwise, we end up with Xavius all over again. Nobody wants that... I mean besides the people only raiding for gear and achievements.

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    The average mythic raider doesn't raid more than 3 days a week, 9 hours. The average mythic raider doesn't usually have the capability to class stack. The average mythic raider doesn't really have the tools to kill horridly overtuned bosses until they're nerfed because only higher end mythic raiding guilds have benches like that.

    It's not really about "Not everyone should be able to kill it" or "MUH PRESTIGE!" but I guess if you either don't give a fuck about raiding or play this game (most likely) or you just happen to be in a top 500 guild, I guess shouting nonsense like that makes sense to you.

    The average mythic raider is stuck at 8/9 BFD, and even above average ones are stuck there because it's a retarded fight.

    /tinfoil hat

    I think that M Jaina is overtuned so that it keeps those average mythic raiders subscribed, and I think that Crucible bosses are overtuned to keep the high end mythic raiding guilds that already killed Jaina subscribed.
    I'm currently 1 month deep on Jaina (9h/week world 800~ guild in Uldir, pretty average if you ask me) and we're starting to get in to P3 more often. I don't think any of us think she is overtuned number wise, but the thing we and every other guild struggle with is the randomness. First, it took us 150+ attempts learn to deal with all different combinations of P1 like 3 ballistas on fire, random avalanche and ring of frost timings etc. Now it's taken us 150 more attempts to get somewhat comfortable with the transition and with the random nature of Icefalls in P2, not to mention the way that Jaina can sometimes decide to cast Avalanche and Siegebreaker blast before the fourth set of Broadsides once you have an attempt where Icefalls are finally kind to you. And this is after they nerfed P1->2 transition. If Jaina never spell queued and never cast Icefalls obscured by her storm, the fight would be a hell lot kinder to guilds like ours where not everyone is on the same skill level etc.
    Last edited by Arainie; 2019-05-04 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ryklin View Post
    They actually discussed in an interview back after the M KJ fiasco, essentially blizz has racked up so many former top 100 raiders on the current internal test team, that their old standards of hardcore overtuning everything ran aground as their internal team's skill greatly improved.
    I remember reading this. On the other hand, I also remember they said they skip to phases to test them individually (which saves a lot of time), which means a lot when you can just jump to that last phase. With KJ and Jaina you have to go through a lot just to get there.

    Internally they're also probably playing with 0-2ms (so positioning and mechanics better register) and are privy to the nuances of the fight with the encounter designer right there.

    Still seems like they're doing guesswork on the final tuning with these, as they still have to add bunch of hp to the final version. They're perfectly okay with overshooting and nerfing it down a few times is assumed.

    Edit: Found the interview

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=270556/...on-hazzikostas

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ion explained some of the context as to why Mythic Kil'jaeden was tested but was still extremely challenging, more so than intended. Mythic Kil'jaeden was extensively tested by Blizzard's internal raid teams, and they were successfully able to complete tricky parts of the encounter--so the encounter damage values seemed fine. However, the internal team had the benefit of skipping to the difficult part of the encounter and practicing that repeatedly, while raids on live servers had to spend a lot of time between attempts reaching the same phases. Blizzard ultimately decided that the damage values associated with parts of the encounter were too high for raids progressing. There was one bug that Blizzard did fix after the encounter went live, but Ion clarified the guilds progressing on Kil'jaeden were using a different strategy and not running into it.
    I think they've mentioned the internal team getting better on multiple occasions, but I don't recall the skipping phases part coming up past this one interview. They mostly withhold other aspects of the internal testing team and environment.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-05-04 at 11:22 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You don't get to personally define what words mean. Guilds that have killed M Jaina are the top fraction of M raiders.

    @the OP, in their current form no. Currently its just a prestige raid for the few.
    Ofcourse I get to personally define that when the OP doesn't mention what they mean with average. Also, guilds that have NOT killed Mythic Jaina were told by Blizzard themselves that the content weren't for them yet. That means you have to put average somewhere around guilds that just killed Mythic Jaina.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Then you don't know what the word "average" means.
    I think it is a pretty good measurement for average among the target audience for the raid. Blizzard did communicate to the community what type of difficulty level you are looking at. If your average 3-4 mythic guild attempts to go in there they are obviously just wasting their time - thus they should be excluded from consideration for the OPs question.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    That is a very skewed view on "average". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average

    Even if it means "average mythic guild".

    If we consider that 20 000 guilds killing 1/9 HEROIC bosses account for 70% of guilds raiding - we are looking at at least 30 000 raiding guilds....of which under 2% have killed Mythic Jaina. So...yeah...that are...I guess 524 "average" guilds and 28 476 "below average" guilds...or should we come out and call them "shit" guilds? And somewhere in those 524 "average" guilds, I guess there is at least one "sort of okay" guild...being the one who beat her first?
    Only a fool would not exclude guilds that have no business stepping in there yet. Blizzard said that Uu'nat is in line with Mythic Jaina difficulty. Why in the world would you consider guilds that haven't gotten there or killed her yet to be part of this conversation then? I'm sorry if you feel insulted that I call guilds that haven't killed Mythic Jaina below average but at this point there is a MASSIVE amount of outright bad players killing Mythic Jaina.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Only a fool would not exclude guilds that have no business stepping in there yet. Blizzard said that Uu'nat is in line with Mythic Jaina difficulty. Why in the world would you consider guilds that haven't gotten there or killed her yet to be part of this conversation then? I'm sorry if you feel insulted that I call guilds that haven't killed Mythic Jaina below average but at this point there is a MASSIVE amount of outright bad players killing Mythic Jaina.
    Maybe you shouldn't exclude them because, if this boss was actually equal to Mythic Jaina, it should be an alternative path for them? Ever thought of that? If that Blizzard statement actually made sense, 7/9 guild could reasonably think "so we're almost done with Blockade, maybe we can go CoS for a change of pace".

    Of course, this isn't true, because Uu'nat shits all over Jaina when it comes to the difficulty. He requires over 700 pulls in a fully stacked raids with maxed characters. He required two hotfix nerfs. There's no chance of outgearing him until 8.2. He's so far above Jaina in difficulty that the majority of CE guild have no business even going there.

    But, I guess, that's ok. Because *you* say there's "massive" amount of "bad players" killing Jaina. And CoS is instance for the elite. Says right there in the name - no bads allowed (as defined by Kief) ... oh wait, it doesn't.

  10. #50
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post


    Only a fool would not exclude guilds that have no business stepping in there yet. Blizzard said that Uu'nat is in line with Mythic Jaina difficulty. Why in the world would you consider guilds that haven't gotten there or killed her yet to be part of this conversation then? I'm sorry if you feel insulted that I call guilds that haven't killed Mythic Jaina below average but at this point there is a MASSIVE amount of outright bad players killing Mythic Jaina.
    Na, I don't feel insulted, just even after years on this forum amazed at the attitude people assume in being judgemental. Yeah..a MASSIVE amount of bad players. 500 guilds killed her. 10000 players. I am sure I missed the part where you have an analytic channel somewhere on the internet and are familiar with the skills of all these people.

    I'd probably shut up if I knew you were in a guild that killed her very early on, as that would put some authority into your claims and you probably get to deal with sub-par applicants every day.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kief View Post
    Yes they absolutely can, just will take A LOT more tries for people to not screw up the mechanics. The numbers required are not unattainable for average players - but then again it depends on your definition of average. Personally I consider any guild that has NOT killed Jaina Mythic yet below average.
    I am raiding on a guild with hall of fame Jaina (Horde). We had a 0,3% pull yesterday at the first boss, and we are killing him and not bothering with U'unat becuase it's unkillable right now. Our general policy is to stick to whatever we play the best and only reroll for a select of very needed things for certain bosses (for example we had one hunter to reroll shaman for speed totem and one monk healer to reroll priest for barrier on Jaina); but right now we have 10 people using rerolls just to kill the first boss, which is faaaar easier than the second one. I doubt any average guild in the world can kill U'unat with this tunning, and i even doubt it can be killed by most >100 world guilds even if they nerf his HP to up something ridiculous like 10%. Btw they never said it but there is a 5% HP difference between Method first pulls and the kill, so they already stealth nerfed HP on top of the two hotfixes and even after that, only 2 guilds have killed it and maybe only around 20 have a real possibility of killing this overtuned amalgam of a boss.

    Also as stated before, it's just stupid how they are releasing this raid short after and before another raid, making the possibility of burnout very high. I (as most) expected this raid to be a filler raid with a difficulty on pair with, maybe, something a little hard than blockade for the first boss and something close to (but not as hard as) Jaina pre-nerfs; so guilds progressing on Jaina can actually kill this two bosses fairly quickly (20-50 pulls first boss; around 100-150 second one) and take wellfare epics to go back and rape Jaina. Not even making a mention about how they brilliantly overlapped the raid with MDI.
    Last edited by Baleful; 2019-05-04 at 01:07 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    The average mythic raider is stuck at 8/9 BFD, and even above average ones are stuck there because it's a retarded fight.

    /tinfoil hat

    I think that M Jaina is overtuned so that it keeps those average mythic raiders subscribed, and I think that Crucible bosses are overtuned to keep the high end mythic raiding guilds that already killed Jaina subscribed.
    Above average guilds killed Jaina 2 months ago.
    Jaina is far from overtuned, guilds currently on Jaina have 10% larger hp pools and 10% more dps to work with than guilds who killed the boss early on in the tier. 8/9 guilds outgear BoD by such a large amount that the last thing holding them back is the tuning. Chilling touch damage and Jaina hp was also nerfed making the fight significantly easier.



    At this point Blizzard should just rework raid difficulties because heroic is a joke even for lower end guilds. Make heroic the new normal mode, tune heroic somewhere between current heroic and current mythic, and make mythic slightly harder. Current mythic end boss tuning is fine but the middle bosses should be more difficult.

    This way worse guilds have something meaningful to progress on without stepping into mythic and tiers would last a little longer than 3-5 weeks for the top 100. We're all paying the same price for the same sub and people in better guilds only get 3 weeks worth of content every 6 months while worse guilds get 5 months worth of content for the same price.
    Last edited by goriander; 2019-05-04 at 03:46 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by siskokid21 View Post
    This cutting edge will remain open until the end of the Nazjatar raid, so it'll be nerfed by overgearing it eventually, and the masses will obtain their cutting edges in time.
    thats the thing. You wont overgear it. ever. Most guilds wont even have the ilvl method and pieces has currently.
    Not until the next raid comes. This more than anything else is why this boss will be impossible for so many guilds.
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  14. #54
    Personally I don't have a problem with the end game being brutally difficult for the methods of the world, as long as once the race is over it gets adjusted to the point that the people whom normally can clear the raid without making it a job can go back to clearing the raid without making it a job. Not obviously everyone can or even arguably should (I'm not going to argue that point one way or the other) clear it, but having almost no one clear it before the next tier would be a massive misstep.
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    yeah wow cool..how about raising the valor cap consider WoD isn't that far away? 1000 valor points gets u a lollipop and kick in the nutsack these days! Back in my day we could get a bucket of candy and a pet ferret with that sort of points!
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    thats the thing. You wont overgear it. ever. Most guilds wont even have the ilvl method and pieces has currently.
    Not until the next raid comes. This more than anything else is why this boss will be impossible for so many guilds.
    CE CoS will remain available until the end of 8.2. Not that the achievement is worth anything at that point though, just as it wont be worth anything if the raid is nerfed to oblivion. Then it'll be easily doable even for below average guilds, so what's wrong with a raid that's difficult on release like this?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    CE CoS will remain available until the end of 8.2. Not that the achievement is worth anything at that point though, just as it wont be worth anything if the raid is nerfed to oblivion. Then it'll be easily doable even for below average guilds, so what's wrong with a raid that's difficult on release like this?
    What's wrong is that this means a raid is released for couple hundred people at most - and someone like you claim that it's "worthless" once it's made doable by a wider audience. Ignoring how hilariously out of touch this makes you (and other people who have no idea what "below average" means), what's more important is that the vast majority of guilds who are done with the content, cannot reasonably progress to this raid. Maybe they'll kill Cabal, but Uu'nat is way beyond their level. There's no extra gear. There's no extra character power. There's only crazy stacking and wiping for hundreds of times. Or waiting for Blizzard to actually make this doable by people outside of Top10. And then outside of Top100. Or do fuck all until 8.2, because you appearently don't deserve to fight this boss.

    I certainly hope this is not the way the raids are supposed to be in the future and CoS is just an anomaly.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-05-04 at 05:39 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    Example: The Mythic Jaina that average guilds are killing now, is not the same Mythic Jaina as the one Method killed for World First.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    What's wrong is that this means a raid is released for couple hundred people at most - and someone like you claim that it's "worthless" once it's made doable by a wider audience.
    It's released for everybody but only doable by the best at launch. Your claim makes as much sense as claiming Jaina was released only for top 100 guilds because they were the only ones to kill it in the first 4-5 weeks of BoD. Naturally more casual guilds will get to killing the bosses later. Cabal, the first "impossible boss" of CoS has already been killed by over 70 guilds and Uu'nat by 3 guilds with more kills to come as 3-4 day guilds in the top 50 get more raid nights on Uu'nat. As usual for a raid's life cycle, in 3 months hundreds of guilds will have Uu'nat down even if it's a watered down version of it. Tell me, how do you design a boss fight that is simultaneously difficult for the top 1% but also doable by the 99% if not by gradually nerfing the boss?

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Ignoring how hilariously out of touch this makes you (and other people who have no idea what "below average" means), what's more important is that the vast majority of guilds who are done with the content, cannot reasonably progress to this raid.
    If you're done with BoD your guild can choose between BoD farm or CoS progression. Usually there's a lull period between tiers anyways, so it's perfectly healthy for guilds that only recently killed Jaina to not go into CoS at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Maybe they'll kill Cabal, but Uu'nat is way beyond their level. There's no extra gear. There's no extra character power. There's only crazy stacking and wiping for hundreds of times. Or waiting for Blizzard to actually make this doable by people outside of Top10. And then outside of Top100. Or do fuck all until 8.2, because you appearently don't deserve to fight this boss.

    I certainly hope this is not the way the raids are supposed to be in the future and CoS is just an anomaly.
    So they'll experience the boss as it was experienced by other guilds before them (unless it receives the KJ treatment) instead of outgearing it. If they're good enough and do what it takes to kill the boss - great. If they decide to come back in 8.2 to kill the boss in easy mode - no problem. If they deem it impossible and give up - no harm done.

    The easiest solution for this is to fix the raid difficulties. Heroic difficulty should be somewhere between current heroic and mythic to give below average guilds something to progress instead of having mythic being the only meaningful mode. Heroic raids are often doable by pugs in the first week of release, which shouldn't be the case. Then there's normal mode. I have no idea what role it even serves when we already have LFR as the "exploration mode".

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Perhaps this might strike some as a really weird question, or perhaps I'm but a major cynic, but to me it does not seem as if Crucible of Storms is killable by the average mythic raidguild. Some people will probably accuse me of being someone who whines that content is too hard and desires nerfs, but that isn't really my take or angle on this.

    If a guild like Method requires 700+ wipes on a single boss that is roughly what 15-20 raids for a guild, which roughly translates into 2 months of progressraiding, then I can't see many raidguilds finding it worth it to invest their time into it. Especially not with 8.2 on the imminent horizon.

    A lot of people seem to live with this idealistic fantasy in their mind that any raid-boss can be overcome as long as people try often and hard enough. I do not share that idea, I believe that at a certain point you can make content so hard that it is no longer a steep hill to overcome but a flat out wall. No amount of wiping is going to help the average guild to kill a boss, if it is overtuned, not even if they had a year of progress raiding on it.

    But maybe I'm wrong about that? What do you think?

    Is every difficult raid-encounter beatable as long as people try often and hard enough, or is that a silly fantasy?
    maybe its time to call it what it is.

    and what we see is blizzard inventing completly new difficulty

    for the sake of arguments lets call it "difficulty level stupid"

    atm the only bosses which are on it were last bosses of few last tiers and those 2 in CoS.

    the difficulty is so riddiculus that even best guild in world cba to rekill Jaina - because even after multiple nerd the difficulty it has is still on level stupid.

    this happens when blizzard listens to whiners on forums who most likely dont even raid

    but whine when best players in world clear raids too fast.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    What's wrong is that this means a raid is released for couple hundred people at most - and someone like you claim that it's "worthless" once it's made doable by a wider audience. Ignoring how hilariously out of touch this makes you (and other people who have no idea what "below average" means), what's more important is that the vast majority of guilds who are done with the content, cannot reasonably progress to this raid. Maybe they'll kill Cabal, but Uu'nat is way beyond their level. There's no extra gear. There's no extra character power. There's only crazy stacking and wiping for hundreds of times. Or waiting for Blizzard to actually make this doable by people outside of Top10. And then outside of Top100. Or do fuck all until 8.2, because you appearently don't deserve to fight this boss.

    I certainly hope this is not the way the raids are supposed to be in the future and CoS is just an anomaly.
    How is CoS released for a couple hundred people at most? That’s just completely wrong.

    Those who can’t do mythic can do CoS on LFR, normal and heroic. That’s literally the point of having those difficulties. People are expecting to be able to slam mythic bosses a few weeks after the raid comes out and when they can’t they complain? That makes no sense to me. There are 4 difficulties of CoS, anyone can complete the raid. Mythic is not designed for everyone so not everyone will complete it.

    Not completing mythic doesn’t mean the raid was only designed for those who can, it just means that difficulty was designed that way which is fine. The raid wasn’t wasted resources considering there’s thousands who’ve cleared normal and heroic. I highly doubt mythic difficulty itself is wasted resources either considering there’s usually only a few new mechanics and some harder tuning compared to heroic.

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